Birth Certificate Gate continues...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Notaguru2, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Notaguru2

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    ‘Birther’ Movement Dogs Republicans | The Washington Independent

    This got me to thinking; the fringe of US society says they have an affidavit from a step grandmother in Kenya that says President Obama was born in Kenya. Why haven't they pressed Kenya for a birth certificate? Could it be because there isn't one? Kenya is covering for Obama? You can't prove a negative. Their failure to produce simply means he wasn't born there. What a shocker...

    Hawaii says that they don't "issue" birth certificates, but they issue the certificate of live birth. Obama has a passport and this document was sufficient to acquire a passport. If the fringe really believe that he is not a natural born citizen, then does that make President Obama an illegal alien since apparently he has no naturalization papers? Does he need to be picked up and deported? No one is claiming that - they just say he shouldn't be president. So, if he's not an alien... he must be.... an American??

    The problem with conspiracies is that they ignore the critical facts. Obama was born in 1961, and there was even a birth announcement in the paper. He has a verified certificate of live birth; sealed, serialized and authenticated by the GOP governor of the state. This seems very usual and reasonable. Even WorldNetDaily has authenticated his birth!

    From WorldNetDaily:
    On the otherhand, the radicals would have you believe that upon giving birth to Barack in Kenya, his mother secretly flew back to the US where no flight records exist to support this, so his birth could be registered in the US. All of this apparently done because Nostrodamus predicted he would run for president 43 years later? Is this really what you believe? There are zero documents that contradict Barack's certificate of live birth - NONE.

    Can we close the books on this anytime soon? Do these "birthers" know how stupid they look?

    :rolleyes:
     
    #1 Notaguru2, Jul 26, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  2. Principessa

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    Of course not, they would need a mirror for that and Birthers are so whacked out that they believe mirrors are the devil's handiwork. :lmao:
     
  3. Notaguru2

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  4. SR_Blarney_Frank

    SR_Blarney_Frank New Member

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    GOP is the same party which claims lunatics like Rep. Dan Burton who famously fired his shotgun at a watermelon to "prove" Vince Foster's death was not suicide.

    There have always been, and will always be, total absolute stark raving mad Republicans out there. I blame the idiots who continue to vote for them.
     
  5. Cowabanga

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    Wonder why they weren't outrage that McCain ran for office? John McCain has proof that he was born in Panama city!
     
  6. houtx48

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    and the hospital where McCain was born was out of the canal zone........but he is an old white man.
     
  7. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    You and Obama wish this was dogging Republicans! This is just heating up and it's not Republicans...it is the American People demanding that the constitution be upheld. This is not a Republican or Democrat issue. This is an American issue. Phillip Berg is a Democrat.:rolleyes:

    Obama and his supporters are attempting to label Americans demanding that the constitution be upheld as either Fringe, Racist or Bitter Losers. It isn't crazy to expect that some department of government is actually validating and verifying that Presidential Candidates are "Natural Born Citizens." Turns out - no part of government is verifying and validating that! The Supreme Court should make the determination of whether Mr. Obama meets the requirement set out in the Constitution.

    Barack Obama has two-fold challenge. Many believe Obama was not born in Hawaii and there has been no evidence presented to prove he was. Neither the certification of birth nor a birth announcement prove Obama was born in Hawaii.

    If Barack Obama was born in Kenya, it is widely known he would not be eligible for President. That is why location of birth has received so much focus in the matter, but it is far from the only issue.

    No. Natural Born Citizen is more complicated than that. It is not equivalent to U.S. Citizen nor Naturalized Citizen. The Framers of the Constitution put in Natural Born Citizen to prevent someone who's father was not born in this country from serving as President.
    The first thing it says is that being born in the US is not enough to be natural born, otherwise the grandfather clause would not be necessary. The writers and delegates, having been born in the US, wanted to be eligible for the presidency, but most were the children of British subjects. Knowing that that eliminated them from being natural born and, thus, from eligibility, they included the grandfather clause which expired when the last person alive at the time of the ratification of the Constitution died. So, being a native born citizen is not the same as being natural born. If it were the framers would not have included the clause.


    When asked to define natural born citizen, John Bingham, the author of the 14th ammendment which extended the bill of rights to former slaves, stated, "Any human born to parents who are US citizens and are under no other jurisdiction or authority." The Naturalization Act of 1790, also passed by this congress, declared "And the children of citizens of the US shall be considered as natural born, provided that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been a resident of the US." Neither of these definitions, one from US law, mentions birthplace, only the parents' citizenship. - Glenn Flowers, charlieprofit.com
    Over the years the law was amended and we could discuss the changes but it really is getting into something needlessly because...Natural Born Citizen should be determined by the Supreme Court. Until the Supreme Court interprets the constitutional term and determines if Obama meets that requirement after interpreting the constitution and the framer's intent we would just be arguing points. This is a serious constitutional matter. It is not a fringe conspiracy theory.

    The birth announcements are not sufficient as evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii. Hawaii was made a state two years prior to 1961 and Hawaiian born children and other foreign children who were not born in the United States were allowed to obtain birth certificates from the State of Hawaii after applying.

    Obama posted a certification of live birth on his fight the smears website, and sent the certification of live birth to be posted on FactCheck.org...and later sent it to Politifact. There have been challenges of fraud and forgery lodged at that document. The State of Hawaii has never verified that specific Certification of Live Birth on Obama's site, or FactCheck.org was actually Barack Obama's Certification of Live Birth that they issued to him in 2007. And even if they did, for Constitutional verification the long form with location of birth would be necessary because the Certification of Birth does not verify a peson was born in Hawaii.

    Sorry but No. That does NOT authenticate Obama's birth in Hawaii. The Certification of Live Birth only proves that Obama received a Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth and he could have received one even being born outside of Hawaii.

    Also, the excuse that the State of Hawaiii Health Dept has gone electronic and Obama has no means of producing his long-form birth certificate is a mediocre excuse at best! Obama isn't applying for an ID Card. Mr. Obama must meet the requirement of being a Natural Born Citizen...not a citizen who obtained a Hawaiian birth certificate even though he was born outside the country and his father was a foreign national. Obama must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was born in Hawaii and that Certification of Live Birth is not adequate to prove that.

    The State of Hawaii should be compelled by the Supreme Court to locate Obama's paper long-form and/or all of the electronic information from the long-form to verify the location of Obama's birth among other things.

    So, that it is understood: Whether the State of Hawaii no longer issues long-form documents or not, Obama or the Court must get access to all of the electronic information from that document that Hawaii is holding FOR THAT REASON (what other reason would the State of Hawaii be maintaining that information if not for a President to prove he was actually and undeniably born in their state?) Ridiculous! :rolleyes: and present it to be verified to a court of authority to determine if he meets the Natural Born Citizen requirement of the constitution.

    Flight records and Kenyan hospital records? No. Barack Obama simply is required to prove he is a Natural Born Citizen. period.

    YouTube - Exactly What IS a Natural Born Citizen?

    The only stupid thing is ignoring the constitution.:rolleyes:
     
  8. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    And somehow you've ignored that there is no official definition of a "Natural Born Citizen" in the Constitution. So why should a YouTube video, a lifer, or a person who doesn't want a Black man in the White House define it?
     
  9. Dave NoCal

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    Bingo! This is all about race and partisanship.
    Dave
     
  10. Jason

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    In 1961 Kenya was part of the British Empire and in theory had a system of registration for births, marriages and deaths comparable to the UK systems. However I doubt the records were complete at this time because of the chaos in Kenya. Additionally I cannot find archive details for these records. Possibly the records have been destroyed, or possibly the archive is closed (reflecting perhaps chaos with the way the records are stored). Or perhaps I'm missing something. I don't think NOT finding something in Kenya proves anything. However it is always possible that something will turn up. It is likely that many babies in Kenya had both their birth registered and also a baptism. In England baptismal records are legal proof of birth (though rarely used as such as a birth certificate is more convenient). Just possibly either a birth or baptismal certificate might be found in Kenya.

    The US system of birth certificates seems plain odd from a UK perspective. In the UK all births are registered by law (with a precise statement of the place of birth). All birth certificates are public documents, so anyone can see anyone's birth certificate. The system stores certificates both in regional offices and nationally, and additionally almost everyone has their own birth certificate. In past ages there were stories of women in labour being moved long distances so that the child would be born in the right place - the point being that there was no way of recording as a place of birth anything other than the place of birth.

    For that matter the requirement that a US president should be US born is alien to the British system. We've had plenty of foreign-born monarchs, and even a foreign born prime minister (Bonar Law).
     
  11. D_Tully Tunnelrat

    D_Tully Tunnelrat New Member

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    If the radical right (aka self-appointed guardians of constitution, when it serves their political motives), who are so concerned about the legitimacy of Obama's citizenship and presidency, really wanted to verify his birth records, rather than just harass the President, they'd hire a PI to locate an official copy of either his HI birth certificate, or this alleged Kenyan, or is it Indonesian (I get sooo confused) birth certificate.

    Here's a link on the anti-semite who first manufactured the story about Barack being raised Muslim in a Madrassa, and that he is not American born. Who would not want this guy as a member of their party?

    Anti-Semite Launched Obama Smears - October 14, 2008

    More on the pop media birther obsession...
    The Birthers: Who Are They and What Do They Want? - Birthers - Gawker

    My fav comment from that being...

    07/22/09
    I demand to see George Washington's birth certificate. He wasn't an American. There was no America when he was born. How's that for the facts. I read'em as I see'em!

    'Course Washington was elected after the Constitution was ratified in 1788, so he was grandfathered in.

    Here's a Wiki article on how the definitions of "natural born" have evolved over the years.

    Natural born citizen of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And a particularly interesting passage...

    Standing in eligibility challenges
    Several United States District Courts have ruled that private citizens do not have standing to challenge the eligibility of candidates to appear on a presidential election ballot.[19] Alternatively, there is a statutory method by which the eligibility of the President-elect to take office may be challenged in Congress.[20]

    (So all this private citizen speculation is moot, and secondly if Congress had taken an iota of this seriously, they could have challenged his citizenship before the swearing-in ceremony.)

    Some legal scholars assert that, even if eligibility challenges are nonjusticiable in lower federal courts, and are not undertaken in Congress, there are other avenues for adjudication, such as an action in state court in regard to ballot access.[21]

    Also interesting is that the father of modern ultra conservatism, Barry Goldwater, was born in the Arizona territory before it was ratified as a state, so even if he had won the Presidency, he technically would have been ineligible to serve. Ironic that the water carrier of the Repubs for many years, is guilty of what the fringe has become incensed over with Obama.

    Oh where is the consistency of the Republican vision of law and order when it applies to their candidates?
     
  12. Jason

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    I understand that Obama's father was a British subject. Surely this means that under the British Nationality Act Obama is a British citizen by descent and eligible for a British passport. Birth in Kenya, Hawaii or anywhere else would not affect this eligibility.

    British Nationality law is horribly complex. But I think a child born in 1961 in Kenya to a British subject father would not only have been entitled to a British passport but also liable to British jurisdiction. Presumably this included at this time British national service and the theoretical possibility of conscription into the armed forces. This didn't happen because Kenya became independent, but in 1961 people weren't to know this.

    In 1961 Kenyan parents who disliked Britain may have been keen to obtain an alternative nationality for their child. There is a motive for a hypothetical Kenyan family with connections with America to record a birth in the US system - and perhaps avoid recording it in the Kenyan system.
     
  13. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    It's not moot. That's why there are appeals to the supreme court.:rolleyes: The Supreme Court has not seen fit to take up the case yet, but that is precisely why the outcry of the American People from every party and walk of life is growing. This is a constitutional question to be addressed by the Supreme Court. Congress failed to act but that doesn't mean there is no recourse.

    That and appeals to the Supreme Court.

    That's not that interesting actually.

    John McCain was listed in a lawsuit along with Obama challenging Natural Born Citizen qualification. :rolleyes:

    Being born in another country to a foreign national father makes a candidate ineligible to be President. There is a Natural Born Citizen requirement in the Constitution.
     
  14. D_Tintagel_Demondong

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    That's an interesting way of saying that the US Supreme Court has denied all petitions for election injunctions and claims regarding Obama's citizenship.
     
  15. crossy

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    What if Obama's delivering physician (in a Marshall McLuhan moment) jumps out of the woodwork and admits to delivering Obama and clipping his wienie. Would that close the Birthers.Nope, I doubt it.
     
  16. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Do you know how many cases were denied on many significant constitutional issues that the court of the time was reluctant to take up?

    It is a legal battle that We The People will keep fighting until standing is established and the public outcry cannot be ignored by the Supreme Court.

    This is a constitutional issue that will be heard by the Supreme Court.
     
  17. D_Tintagel_Demondong

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    So you dislike your President... and your Federal Supreme Court too? Suggesting that they have ignored difficult cases in order to expedite your cause is simply insulting. Even non-Americans, like myself, know of incredibly controversial, nebulous and difficult cases that that they've heard, especially on social issues such as abortion and civil rights. If it wasn't for their decisions, segregation might still exist--and a black president would have been an impossibility.

    You aren't fooling anyone.
     
  18. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    You are truly silly.

    What I stated is fact. It took civil rights groups years of bringing cases and working through the courts to change this nation. Many were denied until the right case made it through. :rolleyes:

    It happens that cases are denied but our system always stands on our constitution. The Supreme Court may deny but they will eventually rule that standing has been established and this constitutional issue will be addressed.

    That's what I stated, your other babbling is just nonsense.
     
  19. Notaguru2

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    Ok, so Trinity is on record as being a "birther". LOL Somehow this doesn't surprise me =) It's all so clear to me now.
     
  20. Notaguru2

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    As I was saying, the problem with conspiracy theorists is that they ignore the critical facts. President Obama is a US citizen; to think otherwise, is unamerican.
     
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