Bisexuality

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Mar 14 2005, 01:56 PM
Freddie, I have come to truly love you as an lpsg friend! I think like many men in our generation, things were very different when you were courting your wife and becomming involved...........

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To understand this you need to move up and read Jana's quote. Thanks for what all you said. And I didn't realize it when I wrote it that some young person would read this and it might impact their lives.

You to Jana, have shared. There are countless people who have gone to AA because of your willingness to share your life. And hopefully many girls will read what you have written about sex.

As a church staff person I can't endorse free sex openly that is for sure. I discourage young people by saying it is an adult activity. But then I do a complete discussion on birth control. And I make it clear that bringing an unwanted child in the world is worse than any sexual activity they could do. Notice I said unwanted. I didn't say illligitimate. That is irrevelant to the child. The child needs a loving parent and having two is better.

But I acknowledge that young people are not going to wait 10 years for sex. So I encourage them to save themselves for someone that they love, have sex somewhere memorable and that first sexual encounter be one they will always look back on fondly. I tell them that sex is too sacred for their first sexual encounter to be one that was awful, with someone they didn't like at the time and so forth.

Because of what you went through, I recommend that once a couple is engaged, if they have not had sex, they should both be tested for any STD's and should use birth control and engage in sex to make sure that they really love each other.

Couples who live together without any commitment have a higher rate of divorce then those who don't. So, I don't advocate a couple living together without any commitments and then trying to then have a marriage. But, I understand that once a couple has set a date and is proceeding toward marriage that if circumstances make it easier for them to live together before the marriage that is a totally different situation.

If a couple is incompatable, I would rather them find that out BEFORE they get married and have all the financial and emotional situations to deal with that divorce always brings.

To me marriage is sacred. I want our young people to follow guidelines that keep them safe and increase the chances that a marriage will succeed. The cost in money and emotional trauma is so great when a marriage fails, that I want young people to follow the best procedures to avoid that happening.

Jana, had you known to follow those procedures, you would not have married that man and had to go through the trauma of a divorce.

Now mainly for the young people reading this who are questioning their sexuality. I will stay in this marriage because of the great things that I get from it. For the record, my health is such that orgasm became difficult in sex with my wife. Erections were not a problem and at that time the penis would stay erect for a long while. But I have a spinal cord injury and I take tremendous amount of anispasmotic medication. Well, the prostate works on spasms. it is possible to have an orgasm but the medication makes it very difficult. I can do it with masturbation. As I get more years away from that spinal cord injury the ability to achieve orgasm gets more difficult. But then my overall health continues to decline. At first the spinal cord injury had just a little effect. Also the amount of medication that I have had to take has increased.

So back to the young people reading this. Don't embark on a marriage that already is frought with problems. If you aren't sure of your sexuality, then don't marry someone unless from the get go both parties know that it is based on friendship alone and and sex is just for the purpose of having children. And in some cultures that is what marriage is for. In ancient Greece, men having sex with men was the norm. Marriage was for the purpose of producing children and providing a family structure for the children.

If my wife were to die, I will not remarry a woman. But with my children gone and into their own homes. I will not rule out a relationship with a man. I won't look for it. But I won't run from it either. He might not want to take on a relationship with a man who is not completely well. And I don't know what would happen if I were to have sex with a man that I was very attracted to either. That could change everything.

I went ahead and wrote more about my situation. Maybe it will help some of the guys and girls here.

There are plenty of sites of naked men and naked women. If you are a guy and you are sexually excited by looking at men, then you are probably gay. If you get sexually excited looking at the girls, you are probably straight. If you find both guys and gals that sexually excite you, then you are probably bi.

It is a cheap and easy way to find out. Look at the photos. Guys, your penis will tell you which photos turn you on. Gals you will know which photos get you all excited there as well.

There is such a thing as situational being straight or gay. That is when what you are really attracted to is unavailable or discouraged and your sex drive is high enough to find a substitute. The substitute at the tme may even seem desirable and more important available. Navy guys are famous for engaging in gay activities because no females are available, but as soon as the gals show up...forget the guys.

Sex is a beautiful gift from God. Use it wisely. It can give you great pleasure and it can destroy your life completely.

 

[lapdog2001]

Originally posted by pie@Mar 14 2005, 02:49 PM
On the subject of Bisexuality I tend to go with my freinds's veiw,

Anyone 100% either way is missing out on about 50% of the potential population, bi is mathematically more sound a choice.

[post=290847]Quoted post[/post]​

I'm fine with 2-3 Billion potential partners!

LapDog

 

[jonb]

True. I like the old metaphor of sex as fire: Controlled, it's the best thing since sliced bread. Uncontrolled, it can kill you and everyone you know.

Bisexuality has been the norm throughout much of history. There's a lot of homoerotic art and poetry in ancient times. And then of course there are the extremely militant cultures where heterosexual intercourse was considered feminizing.

Egalitarian, exclusive homosexuality is fairly novel.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by jonb@Mar 15 2005, 03:30 AM
Egalitarian, exclusive homosexuality is fairly novel.

With a degree in literature, I just love a good novel! B)

 

[txquis]

I admire people who dont label, and that they dont pigeonhole people and "type" them...I've always been like that, too.
But damned if the majority of other people won't label you anyway, even if you dont label yourself...especially in American society.

As I said in my original post, i believe that yes, indeed, there are true bisexuals out there....but as Jana and others have pointed out....it is an abused term.
So many people abuse "versatile" too, in gay sex life.

I am versatile. I equally like top and bottom 50/50.
But..
Most of the guys who i meet who call themselves versatile end up admitting (and you will all guess this before i can type it)..."I'm really more of a bottom".
In fact, i've begun to feel *i cant* call myself versatile anymore because of the 99
percent assumption that i'm really a "closet bottom', which i most certainly am not.
ARRRRRRRGH.

My point: even though i'm not abusing the title, many people are and that it fucks it up for the rest of us....oh and point number two: i wish we could rid ourselves of these labels .

 

[13788]

joe22xxx:

Originally posted by madame_zora+Mar 14 2005, 05:54 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Mar 14 2005, 05:54 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jonb@Mar 14 2005, 03:35 AM
Well, it&#39;s only closet queens who abuse the term, Jana. Once guys admit "Yes, I get turned on by other guys," the question becomes "Do I get turned on by women?" In my case, the question is a definite affirmative, therefore I&#39;m straight or bi, depending on how you look at it.

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Yes, of course, I was remiss in not emphasizing "closeted gays". I think the term biSEXUAL makes specific reference to sexual preference, not necessarliy emotional. I would certainly hope most of us are bi-emotional, or at least could be with the right person, but bisexual (to me) addresses who you like to have sex with.

I think it&#39;s more complicated for men, because at the begining, everyone is corraled into thinking "str8", but if girls are gay, they are more easily accepted. For men to admit being gay takes a bigger step away from our societal mainstream, which can be frightening. For this reason, a lot of men who will EVENTUALLY be gay first come out as "bisexual" because it feels less threatening both in how they will be received (family members will think one day they&#39;ll just "snap out of it") and how much they will have to adjust their own views of themselves and the future they&#39;ve come to believe they want. While I understand this process extremely well (I was married to such a man), it in no way negates the impact on the unsuspecting women who get treated to the whirlwind of emotions and abuse while he&#39;s "figuring it all out". People who are in crisis of any kind have a tendancy to become extremely self centered, thinking their trauma is so much more important than anything else going on in the world, that they scarecly even consider what they are doing to their partner. For anyone considering entering into a relationship with a woman while they are unsure, I would hope they would read one of my millions of posts on this issue and save everyone the pain. It&#39;s not fair to use another human being as a "test" for yourself- you&#39;d expect better.

I am envious of true bisexuals. I think it increases the depth of knowledgde one could have about both genders. Love is immense, but platonic love that is combined with sexual love has got to be the strongest emotional experience a person could have. I am certainly no authority, but I am curious as to why some people have this ability while others don&#39;t. I think a mistake I have made in the past is thinking bisexuals needed both, at the same time, to feel fulfilled. My daughter says not so (at least for her). She can have fulfilling relationships with a person of either gender and feel satisfied with that one person. What&#39;s different for her is that if they break up, she could be looking for someone of either the same or opposite gender the next time. It&#39;s not necessarily about committing to a life of threesomes, swingers clubs, and orgies (although many people enjoy these things immensely), it&#39;s about being free to love and/or have sex with whomever you choose.

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[/b][/quote]


M. Zora explains it all so well. But I find my actual experience to be really different. I definitely feel that I am bi-affectional. That&#39;s the words I&#39;d use. I love certain women and certain men. But that&#39;s where things start getting confusing for me. I&#39;m not sure I can divorce my emotions from my sexual urges. I think some people can. For me it&#39;s impossible. This is what I mean: if I don&#39;t want to really kiss someone & be intimate with them, then I&#39;m not going to want to have sex with them. So loving the person is the prerequisite for being intimate. I&#39;ve never been able to make out with someone I didn&#39;t love. It just hasn&#39;t happned for me. Well, maybe a few times in high school but then the kissing felt like I was mouthing a doorknob...it didn&#39;t have any feeling connected with it.

So I guess I&#39;m wondering if this is common or am I some unigue male on the planet? So if the hottest woman in the world came on to me & I didn&#39;t feel anything for her, I just couldn&#39;t go through with it. I couldn&#39;t even get an erection if the vibe wasn&#39;t right.

So that&#39;s my story & I&#39;m trying to understand it.

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Mar 14 2005, 08:04 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper &#064; Mar 14 2005, 08:04 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jonb@Mar 15 2005, 03:30 AM
Egalitarian, exclusive homosexuality is fairly novel.

With a degree in literature, I just love a good novel&#33; B)

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[/b][/quote]
:gets out whip to punish Jacinto:

What I meant, though, was that there are all kinds of homosexual patterns worldwide, but most of the time, straight guys are to some extent in on it too. I mean, look at my own ancestors. Egalitarian homosexuality was more discreet, and the two generally had wives too. OTOH, with a winkte, there was more openness.

Speaking of gay history, I recently found out someone on alt.native knew Harry Hay. (You know Harry saved us from a massive termination bill back in the mid-60s, right? The first of Wovoka&#39;s predictions to actually come true and not involve astronomy.)

 

[stiphphiphatumus]

maybe a few times in high school but then the kissing felt like I was mouthing a doorknob...--&#62;joe22xxx
lol, that&#39;s great

this thread is gonna drive me nuts for a few weeks. as if i didn&#39;t already question my sexuality, i was pretty good with bi, but now it looks like i&#39;m straight-er? i dunno if i&#39;m ready for that. i think i&#39;m gonna have to ditch the bi thing and go with asexual. so, joe22xxx, i agree; if i don&#39;t feel it, it ain&#39;t gonna happen.
it never does.

 

[madame_zora]

Joe22xxx, since you don&#39;t list your sexual orientation, I don&#39;t know where you stand at the moment, but I feel you missed the purpose of my post. I understand that many people wouldn&#39;t have sex until they feel love, BUT do you feel sexual attraction for women, or men, or both? This is actually the crux of the matter, NOT who you think you could love. If you truly love a woman, you should care enough about her happiness to see that as equally important as your own. Sadly, with many men who are trying desperately to deny their homosexual feelings, they think only of what is good for them and ignore the needs of the poor woman they claim to love. This isn&#39;t love, and platonic love simply isn&#39;t sufficient to sustain a marriage, unless it is well understood by both parties BEFORE the vows are taken, otherwise your vows are a lie.

Saying yoiu have romantic feelings for women seems like a dodge of the core issue, so I hope you will consider this well before determining your sexuality.

 

[Freddie53]

On straight, bi or gay there is a simple test for guys. Over a period of time, when masturbating who do you fantasize about having sex with? If it is only women all the time, you are probably straight. If you fantisize about having sex with both men and women, then you are probably bi. If you never fantasize about sex with a woman, then you are probably gay.

This is a simple test because it envolves only the erotic mind, not relationships, not how you feel about certain people. But what really turns you on. And what really turns you on will answer the question am I straight, bi or gay.

It may take serveral months to figure it out or just in one night, you may have your answer. But as Jana said, don&#39;t be messing with someone else&#39;s life until you figure this one out for yoursalf. Date yes. But don&#39;t get into a really serious relationship until you know the answer to these questions.&#39;

 

[tightfit]

I think that any sexuality is just fine as long as no one is being made to do something against their will.

 

[Royal_T]

Originally posted by tightfit@Mar 15 2005, 01:04 PM
I think that any sexuality is just fine as long as no one is being made to do something against their will.

[post=291115]Quoted post[/post]​

Nah that just wont do. You have to push your views onto other people.

 

[DenBoy]

Originally posted by Freddie53+Mar 15 2005, 09:33 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Freddie53 &#064; Mar 15 2005, 09:33 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>On straight, bi or gay there is a simple test for guys. Over a period of time, when masturbating who do you fantasize about having sex with? If it is only women all the time, you are probably straight. If you fantisize about having sex with both men and women, then you are probably bi. If you never fantasize about sex with a woman, then you are probably gay.

This is a simple test because it envolves only the erotic mind, not relationships, not how you feel about certain people. But what really turns you on. And what really turns you on will answer the question am I straight, bi or gay.

It may take serveral months to figure it out or just in one night, you may have your answer. But as Jana said, don&#39;t be messing with someone else&#39;s life until you figure this one out for yoursalf. Date yes. But don&#39;t get into a really serious relationship until you know the answer to these questions.&#39;

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[/b]

If this is the definition of a true bi then I fit it completely. If you insist on defining it as having emotional and physical relationships with members of both sexes, I was starting to look like a closet straight. I can easily have a relationship with a woman that is both emotional and physical, but with guys it has always been either totally physical or emotional but totally platonic. Maybe it is from cultural conditioning, but I have not and do not have any desire to have that kind of a relationship with another guy.


<!--QuoteBegin-txquis@Mar 14 2005, 10:28 PM
I admire people who dont label, and that they dont pigeonhole people and "type" them...I&#39;ve always been like that, too.
But damned if the majority of other people won&#39;t label you anyway, even if you dont label yourself...especially in American society.

As I said in my original post, i believe that yes, indeed, there are true bisexuals out there....but as Jana and others have pointed out....it is an abused term.
So many people abuse "versatile" too, in gay sex life.

I am versatile. I equally like top and bottom 50/50.
But..
Most of the guys who i meet who call themselves versatile end up admitting (and you will all guess this before i can type it)..."I&#39;m really more of a bottom".
In fact, i&#39;ve begun to feel *i cant* call myself versatile anymore because of the 99
percent assumption that i&#39;m really a "closet bottom&#39;, which i most certainly am not.
ARRRRRRRGH.

My point: even though i&#39;m not abusing the title, many people are and that it fucks it up for the rest of us....oh and point number two: i wish we could rid ourselves of these labels .

[post=291005]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]

Maybe I need to stop telling guys that I&#39;m versatile when I with them. However they must not make the assumption that txquis has when I tell them. I wind up being the top at least 75% of the time. Yeah I know I&#39;m a slut and will take it almost anyway I can get it if I&#39;m attracted to someone.

 

[madame_zora]

For me, I&#39;m actually far less interested in labels than I probably appear. What I am 100% interested in is people being honest with each other. Seems like a simple thing, and I feel my posts have been obvious enough. When you get right down to it, I don&#39;t care how, or if a person identifies himself, however, I&#39;ll wager 9 out of 10 times a person is avoiding labels so they can avoid being honest with themselves or prospective partners. If this doesn&#39;t apply to you, great, but if it does, then I think you owe it to yourself and everyone you will encounter to do some introspection.

 

[Lex]

Madame Zora--will you marry me?

Wait, I&#39;m already married...with a BF no less...

DAMN. Oh well.


At any rate--I resonate with your comments. All my life I have tried to be honest, even when it has been difficult. My college roomate once asked me "Why do women even LIKE you?&#33;? You&#39;re obnoxious."

To which a female friend replied "Lex is always honest... brutally so and while I may not always like it I always respect it."

I have never told anyone I was in love with them to bed them, etc. Also--I believe that a lot of people keep secrets out of fear of being rejected if people knew who they really were.

I&#39;m a total believer of the FOUR AGREEMENTS as noted by author Don Miguel Ruiz.

1. Be Impeccable With Your Word
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.


2. Don’t Take Anything Personally
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.


3. Don’t Make Assumptions
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.
-------

I try to live these daily--not east, but I feel empowered attempting to do so.

 

[madame_zora]

LexMan, I will certainly marry you in the internet world&#33; That post is one of the best things I&#39;ve ever read on here. Honest people are great, even if they seem a bit rude. I call us all "assholes" because that&#39;s what the rest of the world thinks of us. I don&#39;t need to use the truth as a battering ram to slap others in the head with, but I don&#39;t dance around it much either. Likewise, I completely don&#39;t care about anyone else&#39;s opinion of me (except Juliana&#39;s) because my own is sufficient. Anyone who even tries to live like this will find a freedom they never thought possible. I also don&#39;t keep secrets, just a personal choice. I will usually answer the most personal, intimate questions at the drop of a hat, unless a complete stranger is asking and I suspect their motives.

So, you might tell some girl that pink really isn&#39;t her color, or that isn&#39;t her most flattering pair of jeans. She should respect the fact that you care enough to try to help her improve- I would. I&#39;m sure you&#39;d also tell her when she&#39;s smokin&#39; hot.

Married AND a b/f? Some guys have all the luck&#33;

 

[Freddie53]

Jonb, I went to this site and found multiple pages from this website. How do I narrow it down to read about that massive termination bill. I wanted to read about it.

It seems to be a taboo subject in the mass media, but the last research I read on poverty showed that it is the Native Americans who are the most impoverished ethnic group in America.

I don&#39;t know the answer that would satisfy the desire of Native Americans to NOT be assimilated into "western culture". In my state there are many people who have Native American ancestry. My closest friends who are not family, has Native American history. They don&#39;t talk about it. They are Christian and only mention it in passing. It is enough generations away now that they don&#39;t know what to say. * think it is five generations, not sure) My point is that I suspect there are more Americans totally assimilated into "western" culture that have some Native American ancestry then there are Native Americans who practice the culture of their fathers. This is especially true if living at least part time on a reservation must be part of "living the culture."

I have said this before on some thread, but America has a major blot on its history, especially starting with Andrew Jackson. The Trail of Tears was nothing more than an attempt to set a group of people up to die and the tragedy was the people they were moving had a written language and were "civilized" as the term was used in that day. In my state, Arkansas the Trail of Tears comes through the state. The Native Americans killed off by that travesty were people who had pledged to honor and be loyal to the United States of America. The Quapaw Nation was a highly advanced agarian society. They did not have the new inventions that came from Europe starting in the 1300&#39;s. But neither did the Europeans either. The Quapaws didn&#39;t have a written language. After signing peace treaties and supporting America in its wars against England. (A tribe across in Tennessee supported England) The Quapaw were rewarded by having the land they had owned for centureies taken away from them. They were moved to Oklahoma. All the Quapaws have intermarried with other nations of Native Americans. They do come back to Little Rock I was able to go to some of their exhibits.

Enough of me telling information that only Jonb is interested in reading. But I feel very strange going all over the world wiping out injustices as if we had a pristine history. We don&#39;t. And if we would completely correct our own injusitces first, the world mgiht pay more attention to what we have to say.


Speaking of gay history, I recently found out someone on alt.native knew Harry Hay. (You know Harry saved us from a massive termination bill back in the mid-60s, right? The first of Wovoka&#39;s predictions to actually come true and not involve astronomy.)

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[/quote]

 

[Kimahri]

I secretly wished I was bi when I was in high school. There were so many hot guys and girls I&#39;d seen that I didn&#39;t want to miss out on something. As it turns out, I&#39;m gay.

I have a buddy that is a budding bi guy and he said he&#39;d have loved to date me but knew how gay men felt about bis. I&#39;m like...what&#39;s that? He gave me this interesting response and such. I&#39;m like...nope...not me. If you needed some female to keep you happy abit, I&#39;d be ok with that. Hell, invite her over so I can watch. He was blown away. Being bi is a great thing to me and I hold nothing against them. Plus they always have a place to sleep.

 

[absinthium]

Sheesh... I was all excited to reply to this thread until I realized my ass had already come up in conversation... Wah, wah.
Still, I must make one minor correction: Zora, it isn&#39;t that my sexual preference is "none" it&#39;s just that what I find attractive is so varied. To be more accurate, my sexual preference is "pretty", and it transubstantiates gender, and most other boundaries society has put into place. But to just stick to the topic, there are things I find attractive about both genders, and, if we really want to get cerebral here, there are more than just two genders. It&#39;s more like a spectrum than an "either/or" category... I&#39;ve come to learn that there are many places along that spectrum where I&#39;d like to stop and "enjoy the scenery", if you will.
What it comes down to is that for me, there is so much more that goes into what makes someone desirable, and when it comes to just raw sex, the act itself is more important than the equipment someone has to work with.

...But, I will say, as has been discussed earlier, that I find it particularly offensive when a gay man says they&#39;re bi because they&#39;re afraid to admit they&#39;re full-blown gay. I&#39;m not talking about young people who experiment and are just confused, because that&#39;s to be expected. If you haven&#39;t tried it all, how CAN you know what you prefer? If you&#39;re raised to believe you&#39;re supposed to be attracted to girls (like boys are) and you find out you&#39;re attracted to boys, it can be easy to assume that you must enjoy both. What I mean are all the pretenders out there giving folks like me a bad name...
I&#39;ve known both men and women, however that will say things like, "I used to be attracted to girls," and it just blows my mind. I think a lot of people think bisexuality is either a complete cop out, or a phase you simply outgrow. I know Freud seemed to favor the latter theory, but I will NOT open that can of worms right now... You&#39;d never get me to shut up.

I find it sad when homosexuals dislike bisexuals, because, as a friend of mine said a while back, they should understand what it&#39;s like to be discriminated against because of who they like to fuck. I also find it disheartening when heterosexuals think we&#39;re all selfish, insatiable sex fiends, like myself. I&#39;m sure there are some bisexuals out there that are level-headed, decent people, but I won&#39;t be too quick to count myself among them.
All I&#39;ll say further on the matter is I&#39;m a happy little half-breeder and I can&#39;t make anyone else feel the way I do, but hopefully they&#39;ll understand and see me for who I really am, not who I go to bed with. Because honestly, aren&#39;t we all owed that?

 

[jonb]

It was part of an omnibus bill from the 60s. Harry was grading Congressmen and found this bill. Harry had lived around the Washoe reserve as a kid, and he liked his neighbors, so he got the word out. Just something any rational person would do if they found out their childhood friends were threatened by new legislation.

Indian politics defy party; in the 70s, most of us were Republican because Nixon put an end to termination. In the 80s, we quickly converted because of some of the shit Reagan was doing.

Jackson wasn&#39;t the start of the Indian wars. (He&#39;d even fought a few wars against the Seminoles before the Cherokees because Seminoles wouldn&#39;t practice slavery. Always reminded me of the old story about how, if the entire world were communist except for Luxembourg, the Soviets would invade.) King Philip&#39;s War was, at least in the east. The Spanish had engaged in their own terrorism out west much longer.