bisexuals--are they for real?

invisibleman

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I think that it is good to have conversations on sexual orientations. It makes people aware of the diversity in human sexuality. Yeah, I do believe in bisexuality (even though I am not a bisexual. I am not into women sexually.). Think about why are we attracted to certain people we like sexually. Why are we not attracted to other people? Is it possible to be totally bisexual? I guess you will have to find out those answers for yourself.

I think that it is interesting that there are people attracted to both sexes. Some aren't even aware. (Trust me and I have met quite a few. I am a professional people watcher. Being invisible helps. Hehehe:smile: )

I can see how totally gay and totally straight people can be confounded by bisexuals though.
 

GoneA

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Blonde-Blueeyed2 said:
I have found in my 33 years of being sexual that bi really means any way to get laid at the cost of anyone.

Well it's been a successful waste of 33 years. Congratulations on taking so long to learn nothing!
 

B_josiah852

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I like the feel of a womans throat and I like the feel of a mans throat. I like the feel of a vagina and I like the feel of a mangina. If I am bi a horney woman, I am hers. If I am bi a horney man, I am his. Label me what you will. I really don't care.
 

rob_just_rob

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transformer_99 said:
But to me, if you've ever had a same sex intercourse encounter, you're gay, regardless of gender, regardless of whether you could or would have intercourse with opposite sex partner(s). Even if you cross back over, because there is always a possibility as slim as it might be, that a same sex intercourse encounter could occur/recur.

You make homosexuality sound like cancer. :rolleyes:

My gayness is in remission, I guess.
 

davidjh7

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zgrog2000 said:
what's wrong with just being sexual?

But...but....that wouldn't oidgeon hole people in nice little categories!!! What would we do if we didn't label people? How would we judge them unfairly, and justify our bigotry by claiming God told them to be bigots??:rolleyes:
 

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Of course, my counter-argument would be that the essentialists (who never regained as much of a foothold in most of Europe as they have done in the US, anyway) simply - or should I say wilfully? - interpreted Foucault and his kith and kin in too literal a way.

While constructionism certainly uses methods developed from linguistics to show up the arbitrariness of labels, this does not have to mean that this simply "dissolves" the referents of those labels into a meaningless nothing (unless, that is, if one employs a "bare bones" caricature of constructionism). Rather, its interest lies in showing that, as constructed terms assigned to group together various disparate experiential phenomena, these labels remain an inadequate shorthand, shaped by external considerations and viewpoints (none of which is intrinsic to what is being 'described'), and enforcing rhetorical limits on what a labeled phenomenon (such as 'bisexuality') may or may not be.

The goal, in my interpretation and use of constructionism at least, was never to undermine any kind of solidarity among people who identify themselves as gay, bi, architects, philatelists, etc., but rather to highlight the fact that the post hoc application of labels to experiential phenomena is always predicated by concerns/discourses which are external to the phenomena being grouped together under that label, and which thus differ from person to person using the label, depending on their agenda(s). In that sense, constructionism offers a useful tool for reminding pro-diversity movements to look beyond (definitionally arbitrary and unstable) labels to actually engage with the notions of diversity and fluidity; and a reminder that those who use labels merely to delimit and 'punish' always have their viewpoints shaped by external discourse.

Thus, when one argues that "homosexual", for example, is a recent form of identity label (extending back no further than nineteenth-century sexological discourse), this does not mean that people have not conceptualised male-male sexual and romantic relations in different ways prior to the emergence of that designation, or that the phenomenon/phenomena may not just have existed in a non-labeled, non-codified, non-grouped-together form. It simply means that "homosexuality", as a defined concept with parameters and referents who might identify themselves within the category, is a recent application of terminology that has facilitated solidarity among those who consider themselves 'homosexual', but also among those who consider the phenomenon execrable/unnatural. Give people a definitional pigeonhole, and it can be used both to find meaning in themselves through perceived shared traits, and also to 'contain' them within as bogeypersons. Of course, the word "heterosexual" could be used in place of "homosexual" throughout this paragraph, since it too is a recent (nineteenth-century) terminological construction with its own label; which no more means that male-female sex and relationships didn't exist prior to the emergence of the term either, it merely codified them in terms of a shorthand pigeonhole.

However, I would agree that the distinction between questioning 'labels' and questioning the 'experiential phenomena' underlying them... may well have been too subtle for those seeking to embark on a solidarity movement that required broad appeal and comprehension. If the constructionists lost out due to anything, then, it was perhaps the subtlety/complexity of their argument, which offered less chances for straightforward essentialist label-embracing statements along the lines of "we're here, we're queer, deal with it". :rolleyes: Stating that one simply "is" is always far less problematic than stating that one "identifies with certain socio-culturally defined labels that can be applied in highly divergent ways by different people to describe one's perceived 'state of being' and the 'experiential phenomena' which define one's life(style)." Simply "being" also supported the 'homosexuality is natural' debate, of course; whereas trying to work through the nuances of male-male activity being natural, but the means of its socio-cultural codification representing merely a partial, limiting form of labeling... might well have muddied these waters too.

fortiesfun said:
Okay, I'll bite. The reason that Foucault and his fellow constructionists (of which I take Alex8 to be one from his argument here) fell from the favored position they held in the '70s and '80s is that their argument seemed like it might undermine the gay rights movement.

The somewhat shakey logic ran like this: If sexual orientations are "just labels" that don't represent anything except arbitrary assignment or personal taste, then doesn't that mean that sexual orientation really is just preference? And if it is just preference, then aren't the right wingers correct when they say that it is not a protected minority status, but a choice? If it is a choice, why is it wrong to ask people to make a difference choice? What is at stake? No one is being deprived of anything, because they could simply choose to be something else.

Essentialists starting pushing back hard with their position that sexual orientation is hardwired into us in a very real way because, they argued, that provides a basis for political protection. No one is choosing to be gay, or bi (as this thread would have it), and since they can't change their orientation at will, it is tantamount to asking them to change their race or national origin. Can't be done. Asking them to do so is discrimination, in a way that it would not be if sexual orientations are purely social constructions.

I confess that I am not really attacking Alex's position. He is quite brilliant and always persuasive. But I can at least provide an answer to NIC's question about why that is not the last word: Constructionism has its dangers, and those need to be discussed. While naming can be used against you, which Alex rails against, it can also be used for you, as civil rights workers in the US and around the world have long known. You can't be a member of a protected category if there are no valid categories...
 

D_Sheffield Thongbynder

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Alex8, maybe you should switch topics for your next book. This is as succinct and insightful an explanation of the effects/motivations/reactions to naming things as I have ever read. It impressed me almost as much as your having lunch with Maila (I'm shallow).

alex8 said:
Of course, my counter-argument would be that the essentialists (who never regained as much of a foothold in most of Europe as they have done in the US, anyway) simply - or should I say wilfully? - interpreted Foucault and his kith and kin in too literal a way.

While constructionism certainly uses methods developed from linguistics to show up the arbtrariness of labels, this does not have to mean that this simply "dissolves" the referents of those labels into a meaningless nothing (unless, that is, if one employs a "bare bones" caricature of constructionism). Rather, its interest lies in showing that, as constructed terms assigned to group together various disparate experiential phenomena, these labels remain an inadequate shorthand, shaped by external considerations and viewpoints (none of which is intrinsic to what is being 'described'), and enforcing rhetorical limits on what a labeled phenomenon (such as 'bisexuality') may or may not be.

The goal, in my interpretation and use of constructionism at least, was never to undermine any kind of solidarity among people who identify themselves as gay, bi, architects, philatelists, etc., but rather to highlight the fact that the post hoc application of labels to experiential phenomena is always predicated by concerns/discourses which are external to the phenomenon, and which thus differ from person to person using the label, depending on their agenda(s). In that sense, constructionism offers a useful tool for reminding pro-diversity movements to look beyond (definitionally arbitrary and unstable) labels to actually engage with the notions of diversity and fluidity; and a reminder that those who use labels merely to delimit and 'punish' always have their viewpoints shaped by external discourse.

Thus, when one argues that "homosexual", for example, is a recent form of identity label (extending back no further than nineteenth century sexological discourse), this does not mean that people have not conceptualised male-male sexual and romantic identity in different ways prior to the emergence of that designation, or that the phenomenon may not just have existed in a non-labeled, non-codified form. It simply means that "homosexuality", as a defined concept with parameters and referents who might identify themselves within the category, is a recent application of terminology that has facilitated solidarity among those who consider themselves 'homosexual', but also among those who consider the phenomenon execrable/unnatural. Give people a definitional pigeonhole, and it can be used both to find meaning in themselves through perceived shared traits, and also to 'contain' them within as bogeypersons. Of course, the word "heterosexual" could be used in place of "homosexual" throughout this paragraph, since it too is a recent (nineteenth-century) terminological construction with its own label; which no more means that male-female sex and relationships didn't exist prior to the emergence of the term either, it merely codified them in terms of a shorthand pigeonhole.

However, I would agree that the distinction between questioning 'labels' and questioning the 'experiential phenomena' underlying them... may well have been too subtle for those seeking to embark on a solidarity movement that required broad appeal and comprehension. If the constructionists lost out due to anything, then, it was perhaps the subtlety/complexity of their argument, which offered less chances for straightforward essentialist label-embracing statements along the lines of "we're here, we're queer, deal with it". :rolleyes: Stating that one simply "is" is always far less problematic than stating that one "identifies with certain socio-culturally defined labels that can be applied in highly divergent ways by different people to describe one's perceived 'state of being'."
 

hypolimnas

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COLJohn said:
Alex8 succinct and insightful an explanation of the effects/motivations/reactions to naming things as I have ever read.
COLJohn said:
How about this then?

Girls bored me - they still do. I love Mickey Mouse more than any women I've ever known.

-Walt Disney
 

kudo451

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Man the level of intelligence in this world seems to be on the decline. How hard is it to let people Identify as they choose to identify? I mean it seems to me that it makes alot more sense to let someone label themselves bisexual then to attempt to make the crazy statement that millions of people both living and dead are totally delusional about their sexuality just based on your utter confusion of them.

Personally i think diverse sexuality is as natural to humans as being left or right handed. The majority of people are right handed and then there are those who happen to be left handed. So if some happen to be ambidextrous (can use either hand naturally) well that doesn't seem any less unnatural.

However, I do think what could really rock the world is the idea that sexual preference could be learned as well as naturally spontaneous.

http://www.indiana.edu/~kisiss/gay.html
 

joyboytoy79

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Kudo,

I have a lot of respect for Kinsey's work, and the continued work of the Kinsey institute, however, i can't help but feel that it is incomplete. Kinsey's work was based almost solely on experience. Well, sexuality is much more complex than that. I knew i was gay well before i ever had sex, yet Kinsey wouldn't have counted me in his figures. Likewise, i know many men who, like myself, knew they were gay in their teens, but supressed their homosexuality because they thought it was bad. These men married and some of them had children. None of them was able to keep up the "lie." Kinsey would have counted them as heterosexual for those years they had str8 sex... even if the men KNEW they were lying about their actual sexualities.

I agree in a lot of way with Alex8. External labeling of individual experiences is dicey buisness. Sexual/romantic activity does not always match sexual/romantic desire, nor do they always match sexual/romantic identity. To further complicate things, one may have great variances between sexual desires/activities/identity and romantic desires/activities/identity. Complicating things even more, these characteristics are highly fluid and can change spontaneously.

So the comparison between left vs right handedness is not quite valid. It comes close in some ways: one does not choose which is his/her predominent hand, just as one does not choose which is his/her predominant desires. Yet, a left handed person can CHOOSE to write with his/her right hand. It will be clumsy, awkward and unnatural, but it can be done. But a left handed person will never spontaneously BE right handed.

Peoples desires can and do change, and not by choice. People can choose how to act on those desires but only as much as they can choose to write with the "wrong" hand. But when deciding on an identity, it's all about self perspective. We choose to embrace or shun an identity, afterall identity is just a word, and words can be minupulated to mean what we want them to. ("Please define 'is'")
 

surfer691

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I am married, have a regular female lover, plus two regular female "fuck buddies". However, every so often I meet men that I am attracted to sexually. I would say that in a room of fit, glamorous people I would feel attracted to 80% of the women there, and maybe 10-20% of the men. I really DO feel I am bisexual. Not in denial. Not just plain "greedy". Bisexual.

Sometimes it can be an isolated position! The straight community views us with suspicion or sees us as greedy pervs, and the gay community dismiss us as being in the closet or in denial. However.... I notice guys especially seem fine with the concept of female bisexuality!!!
 

Ethyl

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surfer691 said:
I am married, have a regular female lover, plus two regular female "fuck buddies". However, every so often I meet men that I am attracted to sexually. I would say that in a room of fit, glamorous people I would feel attracted to 80% of the women there, and maybe 10-20% of the men. I really DO feel I am bisexual. Not in denial. Not just plain "greedy". Bisexual.

Sometimes it can be an isolated position! The straight community views us with suspicion or sees us as greedy pervs, and the gay community dismiss us as being in the closet or in denial. However.... I notice guys especially seem fine with the concept of female bisexuality!!!

Isn't it interesting how bisexuals are constantly viewed as promiscuous by straight people? Apparently some think if you're bisexual the only way to truly know this is by having multiple partners over time, which isn't true. And yes, they're all kinksters. :rolleyes:

Straight guys are often accepting of female bisexuality because they feel it benefits them. They're attracted to women and more is better for some men. In contrast, male bisexuality doesn't benefit them at all as it would for gay men.

I do see benefits to being bisexual including more choices in desirable partners and the two bisexual people I know personally are more open-minded and educated about sex in general than others. Most complications appear to stem from struggling with social and cultural mores, feeling pressured to "choose" one orientation over another when they should be encouraged to understand and embrace their sexuality. I have an idea of how difficult things can be only because of the many long nights of discussing this with my aforementioned friends. I'm grateful for the insight they've provided me on this subject.
 

surfer691

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mercurialbliss said:
Isn't it interesting how bisexuals are constantly viewed as promiscuous by straight people? Apparently some think if you're bisexual the only way to truly know this is by having multiple partners over time, which isn't true. And yes, they're all kinksters. :rolleyes:

Straight guys are often accepting of female bisexuality because they feel it benefits them. They're attracted to women and more is better for some men. In contrast, male bisexuality doesn't benefit them at all as it would for gay men.

I do see benefits to being bisexual including more choices in desirable partners and the two bisexual people I know personally are more open-minded and educated about sex in general than others. Most complications appear to stem from struggling with social and cultural mores, feeling pressured to "choose" one orientation over another when they should be encouraged to understand and embrace their sexuality. I have an idea of how difficult things can be only because of the many long nights of discussing this with my aforementioned friends. I'm grateful for the insight they've provided me on this subject.

What can I say? Hear, hear!!
 

surfer691

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AND another thing.... not happy that a "liberal" site like LPSG has this % straight % gay thing! I put 80/20 to give the best indicator... but I would prefer a "100% bisexual" option! Being bisexual isn't being "a bit gay" or "a bit straight"!

Of course, Freud would say we're ALL bisexual, but that's a whole other debate....!!

Have fun!
 

fortiesfun

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joyboytoy79 said:
I have a lot of respect for Kinsey's work, and the continued work of the Kinsey institute, however, i can't help but feel that it is incomplete. Kinsey's work was based almost solely on experience. Well, sexuality is much more complex than that. I knew i was gay well before i ever had sex, yet Kinsey wouldn't have counted me in his figures. Likewise, i know many men who, like myself, knew they were gay in their teens, but supressed their homosexuality because they thought it was bad. These men married and some of them had children. None of them was able to keep up the "lie." Kinsey would have counted them as heterosexual for those years they had str8 sex... even if the men KNEW they were lying about their actual sexualities.

JBT: While I agree with much of your analysis, you underestimate Kinsey. In the original study of almost 5000 men Kinsey and his team actually completed two hour personal interviews with each of the subjects and then gave them two separate ratings on their famous scale: one for their behavioral history and another one for their "psychosexual responses/preferences." On most occasions those were the same or very similar, but in a surprising number of cases they were not. When that happened the researchers made a determination of which seemed of most significance affectively to the subject, even when the subject could not articulate his desires. Kinsey not only could, but did, recognize the homosexuality of presexual men, of closeted men, and even of a few men he deemed to be giving purposely misleading answers. One of the possible reasons that Kinsey's study produced a higher percentage of homosexuals (estimating them at 10% of the male population) than most recent studies can replicate (which more often arrive a figure about half that level) is that he and his team were more willing to identify as homosexual men whose overt history and even self-identification were at odds with that designation.

Like you, I'd argue (and have here on these pages) that Kinsey's work was important but didn't go far enough, but at least in this matter he is not guilty. If anything, the criticism of his work has usually suggested that he was too liberal in his identifications of gay men, placing men in that category who certainly would not have agreed with his analysis.