BNP- what do they do next?

[Rubenesque]

LOL

I've got my fists clenched, i think they might just be expecting a buggering tho cos this bandana i'm wearing makes me look right bendy! :tongue:

Superb... to quote Dad's Army... "STICK IT UP 'EM!"

 

[Rugbypup]

...if he could allow me a tent in his back garden til i got on my feet, i think New Zealand looks great a place to move to. Kinda like England but very not! lol

I agree, need a couple of tents Rp :biggrin1:

You guys want to camp in my back garden?

Have either of you ever owned a dog? I'm a pup, what do you think you'll find in my back garden, lol.

...brave.

NZ is very beautiful, in many ways, and not, in just as many. Everywhere has it's problems. Immigration here is extremely xenophobic for one, advocates of what could be termed positive discrimination or racism.

 

[DaveyR]

It does make you resent the system in general.

Up until recently I would have totally agreed with you.

People we know who have been out here in Spain for a few years recently returned to the UK. They fell on hard times here and upped sticks. They had to pass an habitual residency test in the UK and on doing so were entitled to housing benefit and healthcare immediately despite the fact they had not paid into the UK system for a good few years.

OK so Britain gets slagged by it's own for looking after incomers too well but it does apply to it's own expats too. You really don't realise how well you are looked after by the state in the UK until you live elsewhere :wink:

 

[25300]

NZ is very beautiful, in many ways, and not, in just as many. Everywhere has it's problems. Immigration here is extremely xenophobic for one, advocates of what could be termed positive discrimination or racism.

Did you experience this first hand? I obviously didn't emmigrate here so I don't know how the system works. What sort of discrimination did you experience?

I would like to think that it isn't xenophobic, but perhaps stringent, although as I say, I haven't been through the system. The problem with it is that although immigration should be as accepting as possible, it is necessary to have some resistance in order to stop NZ turning into a country similar to the counries that immigrants are trying to escape, for what ever reason, in the first place (Like what the northern asian communities in the UK seem to be).

Finding a happy median between the two seems like an overwhelmingly impossible task, without treading on someones toes.

 

[Rugbypup]

Did you experience this first hand? I obviously didn't emmigrate here so I don't know how the system works. What sort of discrimination did you experience?

I would like to think that it isn't xenophobic, but perhaps stringent, although as I say, I haven't been through the system. The problem with it is that although immigration should be as accepting as possible, it is necessary to have some resistance in order to stop NZ turning into a country similar to the counries that immigrants are trying to escape, for what ever reason, in the first place (Like what the northern asian communities in the UK seem to be).

Finding a happy median between the two seems like an overwhelmingly impossible task, without treading on someones toes.

You are asked here, repeatedly in many different ways, are you a kiwi?

If the answer is no, then a lot of official NZ bodies frankly tell you to fuck off by stringing you up in so much red tape or closed doors.

Medical, financial, immigration...

 

[StrictlyAvg]

Mitchy et al in the UK - Nick Griffin's on Question Time tonight, be there and give back some comment. I'll have to wait till I'm back in the UK next week and catch it on iplayer.

 

[mitchymo]

Mitchy et al in the UK - Nick Griffin's on Question Time tonight, be there and give back some comment. I'll have to wait till I'm back in the UK next week and catch it on iplayer.

Ha, thx dude, i WILL be watching, looking forward to it.

 

[Jason]

Griffin has indeed been on BBC Question Time.

I rather hoped he would make a complete fool of himself. Maybe say something so extreme that he would show himself for what he is. Or punch Dimbleby on the nose, or shout at a questioner. Unfortunately he didn't. Some of the panel tried to say at the end that he had shown himself for what he is, but I think this was wishful thinking.

The man is utterly obnoxious and a liar. But I don't think this came across fully. Instead:
* He managed to say that the BNP has changed its views, and he sort of suggested that he has changed his views. I don't believe him, but it is a good line. After all in British politics we accept that the murdering scum of Sinn Fein IRA can change their spots and become a respectable, democratic party.
* He had four politically experienced panellists against him, Dimbleby pretty clearly against him, and a very hostile audience. He was sweating and towards the end had a slight tremble. He began to look like the poor underdog. In a way it is a good act - have absolutely everyone against you and you get some sympathy.
* He did manage to criticise Labour's immigration policy in ways that many from respectable parties would feel are fair criticisms. He also criticised aspects of Islam (eg treatment of women, differential treatment of non-moslems) in ways which many with respectable views would have some sympathy with.

All in all I'm pretty unhappy about this interview. I had hoped he would make a real mess of it and show himself up for what he is, but though politicians might try to draw this conclusion I don't think it is correct. Presumably BNP support is going to go up after this interview. Presumably BNP is now part of the political furniture.

Ugghh!

 

[mitchymo]

Well i watched and enjoyed this weeks episode of Question Time.

As much as i felt disgusted by Nick Griffin, leader of the BNP whenever he spoke about preserving 'English' culture and referring to the rights of 'indigenous' english, i was pleased to see that he got the chance to talk on this platform, he looked uncomfortable and evasive on subjects such as the holocaust and allowed people to see him for what he is.

The show was actually quite funny too.

I was in stitches when Bonnie Greer was explaining 'indigenous'. She said "there was nobody living in the country during the ice age because people could'nt live in ice". So obvious but the way she said it was funny and to point out that nobody in the UK has ancestory that stretches back only as far as this country, we are all descendants of Africa.

Another funny point was when Nick Griffin was saying that he DID deny the holocaust BUT has since changed his mind but was prevented from giving an explanation because of European law at which point Jack Straw our Justice Secretary turned around and said "As Justice Secretary".....to which the audience and myself started laughing...i give you assurance that you will not suffer consequences or words to that effect.

Not surprisingly he squirmed and evaded giving an answer claiming the French and Germans prevent him from answering. Its great how this anti european actually used European Law to try and evade answering a question on holocaust denial even after the Justice Secretary reitterated that HE was at the top of the tree where Justice is concerned and so there was no good reason to be evasive.

Nick Griffin also had time to comment on homosexuality.....

"I find the idea of two grown men kissing to be creepy", I'm guessing he gets quite turned on by the idea of two teens doing it tho

What a racist, homophobic, anti-european dick that guy is.

 

[D_Relentless Original]

Hmm, i think Lib dems Chris Hulne was the most honest panel member on Question time tonight. Jack Straw seemed to be skitting round questions and Baroness Warsi totally looked embarassed when Dimbleby put her on the spot about her previous comments on civil marriages damaging regular family life or words to that effect.

I loved Bonnie Greer, she was a star.

Nick Griffin i fear will get alot of new votes from this slot though.

 

[Jason]

Nick Griffin i fear will get alot of new votes from this slot though.

The more I think about the interview the more I think this is right. The panel members spent the time saying how much they hate NG and what he stands for. That's fine up to a point - but the justification for bringing him on to question time was to engage in debate and show him for the nasty piece of work he is. Nearly a million people voted for him. No doubt some of this million are obnoxious racist bigots - but many are not though they found something appealing in what the BNP said. We need to engage with this and attack this - and that's different from saying we all hate NG. Perhaps the atmosphere was too charged, but QT did not address the substance of his ideas, just that they are warped and perverted.

 

[Rugbypup]

I hate to play the devils advocate here...

He probably will gain much support from this, for no better reason that he is saying what a large under current of 'England', more specificity, is thinking.

For every rationalised debate over immigration, there now seems to be an equal and opposite view of 'foreigner go home!'.

I hate to bang on about the disillusionment of the British peoples, but it's true and far to ignored and understated an issue in current politics.

I would not see the BNP come to power, but I fear the more the 'i'm-a-ginn-it's' such a party appeals to the greater their reach, sympathy and sadly credibility will become.

This in my view is a dark thin edge of a deeply unsettling wedge that can only be halted by legitimate and well rounded polictical figures and partys, speaking up on isses their PC terrors silence them on.

I consider myself an indigenous person to England, my paternal lineage dates back centuries in England, yet chose to leave as my own country actively favoured foreign nationals on basic situations like accommodation. Am I pissed about, well, kinda, yes!

I may have chosen to leave and find a better life, but there are many more who may just as easily seek to take a far darker intent and view.

Wake up Britain... before you spawn a Hitler of your own.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it."
Edmund Burke

 

[mitchymo]

I hate to play the devils advocate here...

He probably will gain much support from this, for no better reason that he is saying what a large under current of 'England', more specificity, is thinking.

For every rationalised debate over immigration, there now seems to be an equal and opposite view of 'foreigner go home!'.

I hate to bang on about the disillusionment of the British peoples, but it's true and far to ignored and understated an issue in current politics.

I would not see the BNP come to power, but I fear the more the 'i'm-a-ginn-it's' such a party appeals to the greater their reach, sympathy and sadly credibility will become.


This in my view is a dark thin edge of a deeply unsettling wedge that can only be halted by legitimate and well rounded polictical figures and partys, speaking up on isses their PC terrors silence them on.

I consider myself an indigenous person to England, my paternal lineage dates back centuries in England, yet chose to leave as my own country actively favoured foreign nationals on basic situations like accommodation. Am I pissed about, well, kinda, yes!

I may have chosen to leave and find a better life, but there are many more who may just as easily seek to take a far darker intent and view.

Wake up Britain... before you spawn a Hitler of your own.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it."
Edmund Burke

I'm sorry RP but you sound as if you are discrediting the British people as a whole as being impressionable dumbasses that lack the common sense and decency that history shows we are definately not.

If the BNP gains support it is no surprise because i expect what he will do next is stand in new seats where the bigots in those areas will vote for the party as being right for them, equally he will lose votes that he had won from those who did'nt understand prior that immigration which is a concern to many for the sheer pace of change is just a facade in the BNP's true agenda.

He may gain more support in new places but he will never be able to become a 'Hitler', we're not stupid, and the majority of us are respectable.
Its just a shame that the unsavoury anti-social types make their presence known to so many when they are actually just a minority.

 

[Rugbypup]

I'm sorry RP but you sound as if you are discrediting the British people as a whole as being impressionable dumbasses that lack the common sense and decency...

No, not 'all', of course not. I meant not to imply such.

Though I would point out the Chavs!, lol. :biggrin1:

 

[mitchymo]

No, not 'all', of course not. I meant not to imply such.

Though I would point out the Chavs!, lol. :biggrin1:

Haha, well when i said "Its just a shame that the unsavoury anti-social types make their presence known to so many when they are actually just a minority" i WAS meaning them too! :smile:

 

[Rubenesque]

I have mixed feelings about his appearance.

There should have been less time spent slagging him off and more time feeding him the rope that would ultimately hang him. They, in effect, turned him into a bullied little boy which won't do him any harm at all.

I did enjoy him squirming re: the issue of holocaust denial.

As to the question of if he should've been allowed on there at all, of course he should, to have continued to deny the leader of a British political party the same access to the electorate as all other politicians would be playing in to their hands. No longer can they cry "censored"!

 

[Rubenesque]

As I suspected, he's been on the news bleating on about being victimised and saying that the show shouldn't have been filmed in London because it's been "ethnically cleansed" of white Brits, so he didn't get a fair audience.

This is what I mean about giving him rope... don't attack, just let him talk, he does all the work for us!

 

[Jason]

I hate to play the devils advocate here...

He probably will gain much support from this, for no better reason that he is saying what a large under current of 'England', more specificity, is thinking.

....

Wake up Britain... before you spawn a Hitler of your own.

I agree wake up - with this and so many other political issues Britain seems to be sleep walking.

I'm not a great fan of the symbols of national identity - flags and anthems and monarchs and even double-decker busses and beef-eaters - but I do think it is important that all nations have an identity. Right now in Britian our identity seems under threat, and with it our sense of a place in the world. We have a political class we don't respect. We have a war in Afghanistan most of us don't support following on from an unpopular Iraq war that many feel was illegal. We seem set to become a province of Europe (in breach of a government promise) with a washed up former UK PM who may well be facing war crimes charges as the unelected president. The UK doesn't feel great about itself right now.

Then someone comes along saying outrageous things, but outrageous things that do strike a cord with many - nearly a million at the Euro election. Labour has made a mess of immigration policy, and while that doesn't justify the BNP views it goes a way to explain their superficial appeal. The economy is up the creek with unemployment high and rising, and we seem to be accepting large numbers of migrants and not removing those whose asylum claims have been rejected.

We do need to wake up. It is possible that the 2015 UK election will be fought on proportional reputation. With the support the BNP have at the moment that would give them a couple of dozen seats, easily enough to have real power in a hung parliament. The idea that mainstream parties wouldn't deal with a block of MPs of this size is wishful thinking. They wouldn't form a coalition with the BNP but they would be forced into endless backroom deals.

BNP is a credible threat. The QT interview in my view was flawed because instead of debating issues the panellists simply said how much they hated NG and the BNP. They pretty much suspended the usual political argument between the mainstream parties. They talked almost exclusively about BNP issues (what about the many other issues of the day?) I hear NG plans to claim some sort of victimisation and the shocking thought is that he might even have a point.

I have never seen a QT interview where every question was in effect directed at one panelist and where the questioning was so hostile. The hour of programme is filmed over a longer period in the studio. NG will have legitimate causes to complain about how he was treated over this say 2 hour period. For example it is in the papers this morning that at the end of the interview the BBC did not have an arrangement in place for getting him out of the studio but left him standing for a stated 5 minutes (Independent newsaper reporter) in front of a hostile audience before they would lead him away - and then only because the presenter intervened. The BBC should have got things like this right.

All in all I found the interview utterly depressing as I think it has just boosted his support. I think the BBC got it wrong in not talking about other issues, and the panelists got it wrong in not engaging in debate. :frown1:

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

i was one of the protesters outdide. parties like the BNP crave the legitimacy that the BBC gave them. i was happy to see that he was made to feel as uncomfortable as he was and look a ptat. but look at it this way. for a million people that watched it, 100 people probably now support the BNP. thats 100 too many. the bbc spoke about freedom of speech but the crowd was vetted so now UAF (unite against fascism) no SWP (Socialist workers Party) or anyone else could get in. where is our freedom of speech?

 

[Jason]

i was one of the protesters outdide. parties like the BNP crave the legitimacy that the BBC gave them. i was happy to see that he was made to feel as uncomfortable as he was and look a ptat. but look at it this way. for a million people that watched it, 100 people probably now support the BNP. thats 100 too many. the bbc spoke about freedom of speech but the crowd was vetted so now UAF (unite against fascism) no SWP (Socialist workers Party) or anyone else could get in. where is our freedom of speech?

Several points here.

We all wanted him to look a complete prat. Some of the newspapers today have indeed said he did. But he didn't! Look at the interview and see what he achieved. He kept his cool and he made some points that will appeal to his target audience, basically disenchanted working-class Labour voters. BNP must be celebrating today. He did exactly what he wanted to do.

8 million people watched the programme, well up on the normal. He got extensive news coverage yesterday and today, and he is now making a complaint which will get him more news coverage. He will pick up support from this - the BBC have just found a woman on the streets of London who says she is supporting because of his performance on QT. There is a story that there has been an enormous number of BNP membership applications today. Presumably there will be a poll soon and presumably we will see a big boost in BNP support.

Access to Question Time is based on profiling - the audience should reflect the profile of the area where QT is filmed. Groups like UAF and SWP will get access according to their % strength in an area. We have freedom of speech - which means that horrible people like NG who get a million votes can speak and pressure groups that cannot demonstrate support on anything like this level cannot stop him from speaking. If we don't want to hear NG and his ilk we have to stop voting for him. Trying to shout him down just gives him a bogus legitimacy.

UAF and SWP have of course done their own cause immense damage. The protests yesterday and the break in to the BBC studio in effect gave BNP enormous publicity that could have been avoided. Presumably BNP would be happy to fund the travel and expenses of the protestors, so useful have they been to BNP's cause. Have these groups been infiltrated by the BNP?

I find NG and his views disgusting. But with a million votes behind him and as a representative of the UK in the EU parliament we have to give him proportional space on TV. Maybe BNP should be censored - if the government thinks this why haven't they done it? UAF and SWP might lobby for this. But their actions yesterday made NG so very happy, made his twisted views look attractive to many, gave him the media coverage he craves, have boosted BNP membership. Without UAF and SWP this QT appearance would have been a 5 minute wonder - they have done enormous damage. :frown1: