Boyfriend taking a side against me

ConstantComment

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But that's not what you said. Look, Lady. You gave a background story, you gave it the way your instinct told you to give it, and I told you how that story came off. You don't need to justify yourself to me. Who gives a flying fuck if I think you hate Romanians? (I don't think that.) Your statements, as presented in your OP strike me as xenophobic. Constantly cleaning it up for me after the fact will not change that. I from the fucking Bronx. I know how to be alert for a pick-pocket, (which is probably most of why my pockets do not get picked) thank you.

Let me ask you something. Why in the hell are you asking for opinions if you're going to argue with anyone who doesn't validate you?

All I can say is, Wow.
 

blaquehorse

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AlteredEgo, i quite agree with you. Constantcomment seems to have made up her mind already. Her nickname says it all; she probably constantly makes comments on folks she knows little or nothing short of general stuff about.
Accept that you made an error of judgement in your comment and get on with it.
 

JPoster

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ConstantComment, we don't have your BF's version of events so there is always a possibility that he saw things somewhat differently.

If, however, your recitation is accurate then don't let the chest-thumping, self-righteous PC police get to you. Your gut instinct told you something was wrong. People who advise on self-defense and protecting ourselves in public recommend that we never ignore our gut feelings.

Your use of the word "creepy" may sum up the collection of clues that you otherwise could not articulate but your self-preservation instinct recognized as threatening. You were not wrong to have a heightened state of awareness.

I suggest that, in the attempt to explain your alarm, you hit on an explanation, i.e., the woman possibly being gypsy. If you are given to habitually categorizing people then you should rethink that approach as it many times proves inaccurate as well as unfair. That said though, to label you a racist on that alone is silly.

And if it was out of character for you to make such a statement then your BF needs to lighten up. If someone with a recorder followed us around and then demanded an explanation and justification for everything that ever came out of our mouths we would spend the rest of our lives debating what we meant and why we said it. All of us say things that we later wish we hadn't.
 

petite

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That was my sense, but I'm just guessing.

This was my interpretation also. When she wrote that she noticed the woman and the behavior that caused her to begin paying attention to her, it was when she had not pinned a nationality to her at all. I read the "creepy" behavior as behavior that she found suspicious in some way. The woman spoke Italian to her and she assumed that the woman as Italian but they were unable to interact due to regional differences in dialect. The woman continued to act creepy, and it wasn't until later when she saw the passport that she saw that she was Romanian. To me, a determining factor was the fact that clearly she was honed in to this woman because of how she was acting, and that wasn't based upon her nationality because she began noticing the creepiness long before she figured out what country the woman was from. It seems more like her reasoning went from how suspiciously the woman was behaving to looking for what the woman could want and why she was acting so oddly, so that it looks like this:

Creepy -> Pickpocket -> Romanian -> Gypsy

I find that to be less racist than seeing that she's Romanian and then assuming that the woman was a pickpocket, like this:

Romanian -> Gypsy -> Pickpocket

I still think that it's racist because she made the assumption that creepy pickpockets from Romania might be gypsies, but it's not nearly as bad as a lot of other people's interpretation that she thinks that all Romanian Gypsies are pickpockets, and I consider it mitigating that the only reason why she said anything at all was to alert her boyfriend that there might be danger nearby which indicates that she was primarily motivated by a concern over her personal safety from a person who was acting in a suspicious way, so she blurted out something to indicate that she felt unsafe that in retrospect was unwise and might not be something that she would say in another circumstance. (I'm unsure about that, though, since the OP has also defended racial profiling since my first post.) I'm honestly unsure of where I stand on how harshly someone should be judged for a single instance where she makes an unflattering generalization about someone's race or nationality when that person is feeling threatened. As someone pointed out earlier, this could be an isolated incident that the boyfriend can't let go of, or the boyfriend might have noticed other behavior that strengthens the case against her as a racist. There's no way for me to know.
 
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Kotchanski

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See I read it, and her follow up comments as:

Creepy --> Uncomfortable being around her --> Romanian --> Ah that makes sense now --> Explain why I want to avoid

I've no issue with finding someone creepy, being concerned about what they may potentially be after, considering your personal safety above potentially helping someone who can't articulate what they want and viewing their behaviour as suspect.

I do however have an issue with the fact that she took those genuine, sensible and understandable feelings that she had BEFORE seeing the passport, then decided that she was a pickpocketing gypsy.

Granted she said that the concerns over behaviour included the possibility that she could be a pickpocket, and that again that was a possibility before having seen her passport, but then to become so sure of it AFTER seeing the passport that she'd happily tar an entire country with that brush...

She said something stupid, that doesn't make her racist, the fact that she's trying to go back and rewrite her take on the events rather than accept that her comment was stupid and shouldn't have been said, or possibly even explain why she felt it ok to lump the whole country in as one makes her either: Determined to believe her BF was in the wrong regardless, or a racist who can't admit it.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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I still think that it's racist because she made the assumption that creepy pickpockets from Romania might be gypsies ...
But they might be gypsies. That's not a mistake.
And one could easily adduce studies that show that some gypsies treated petty crime as a trade.
That said, I think we have reacted pretty similarly to her post.
 

Gillette

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For her to protectively flinch from the idea of having that woman follow them and perhaps even seek to stay with them in the UK, or even pickpocket them, is fairly normal human thinking, albeit a bit wild. We all do it at some time.
I don't find the bolded bit to be in any estimation an example of normal thinking. That's the paranoid spectrum of the same warped thinking by which a stalker transforms a request for the time into, "We're destined to be one".

Sure, being tailed would make anyone wary but it's only once they're seated away from the woman at the gate that she makes this link between Romanians and thievery. A link that shouldn't be made at all.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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I don't find the bolded bit to be in any estimation an example of normal thinking. That's the paranoid spectrum of the same warped thinking by which a stalker transforms a request for the time into, "We're destined to be one".
It is wild and yes, rather paranoid thinking, but quite normal, in my view.
If we could somehow get a transcript of all our thoughts, we would be surprised at the odd places in which they stray.
Can't prove this, of course.

Sure, being tailed would make anyone wary but it's only once they're seated away from the woman at the gate that she makes this link between Romanians and thievery. A link that shouldn't be made at all.
She didn't make a link between Romanians and thievery.
 

petite

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See I read it, and her follow up comments as:

Creepy --> Uncomfortable being around her --> Romanian --> Ah that makes sense now --> Explain why I want to avoid

That's entirely possible. I see the difference. You're saying that you thought that she felt discomfort, sought to explain it and since she's biased as soon as she saw that there was a possibility that the woman was a Gypsy then she felt that her discomfort was justified, and that's what led her to the conclusion that the woman was a pickpocket. Whereas I thought that the order of events and the evidence leading to the conclusion was less damning and more forgivable because I thought that she first felt unsafe and that sense of danger did not arise from the woman's nationality or race, which were conclusions she reached later. Only the OP knows for sure which one explains what happened inside her mind.
 
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Kotchanski

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Was she tarring non-gypsy Romanians?
I hadn't noticed that.

Fine, she said that the greatest number of them come from there and that they are pickpockets... Either way, she tarred an entire group of people as pickpockets, and then took it further by including this woman based solely on the fact that she was from Romania.

1. Thinking someone is creepy = fine
2. Thinking someone might be a pickpocket = fine
3. Thinking someone might be a gypsy = fine
4. Thinking someone might be up to something = fine
5. Stating that you think someone from 1 and 2 is 3 and 4 because you've seen their passport = pretty disgusting.

If she'd have said it was a guy, wearing a backpack and sticking pretty close to her personal space so she thought he was creepy and when she got a better look saw he was probably Muslim so told her BF that he could be a terrorist, we'd all be pretty pissed about it.

If the same happened and she got a better look and saw that he was black and as such told her BF they should stay clear because he could be after their money to buy drugs and he may even be carrying a gun, again... we'd all be pissed.

But no, calling someone a gypsy pickpocket is just fine!
 

AlteredEgo

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Assuming that a gypsy sitting all away across the room is a pickpocket is as wrong as assuming a black dude all the way across the room is a pick-pocket. Sure, some gypsies are crooked. Some of every group is crooked. The gypsies I know raise horses.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Fine, she said that the greatest number of them come from there and that they are pickpockets... Either way, she tarred an entire group of people as pickpockets, and then took it further by including this woman based solely on the fact that she was from Romania.
Well, if you're saying that she meant that all gypsies were pickpockets, that would be excessive.
But we'd have to find out if that's what she meant.
Knowing the woman was from Romania was not at all irrelevant.
Romania has one of the largest gypsy populations.
Also, we don't know that the knowledge that the woman was Romanian was the only reason she thought she might be a pickpocket.
1. Thinking someone is creepy = fine
2. Thinking someone might be a pickpocket = fine
3. Thinking someone might be a gypsy = fine
4. Thinking someone might be up to something = fine
5. Stating that you think someone from 1 and 2 is 3 and 4 because you've seen their passport = pretty disgusting.
I find it rather logical ... not disgusting. She's not saying the woman is a gypsy, but she's assuming the woman might be a gypsy. Which is of course true, is it not?
(It is, of course, a case of visceral thinking, which is never rational, but constitutes a large part of all of our thinking. If she got more control of that, she would benefit ... as would both you and I. But we probably won't. We're human.)

If she'd have said it was a guy, wearing a backpack and sticking pretty close to her personal space so she thought he was creepy and when she got a better look saw he was probably Muslim so told her BF that he could be a terrorist, we'd all be pretty pissed about it.

If the same happened and she got a better look and saw that he was black and as such told her BF they should stay clear because he could be after their money to buy drugs and he may even be carrying a gun, again... we'd all be pissed.

But no, calling someone a gypsy pickpocket is just fine!
Not really fine, but not horrendous.
I really think the negative reactions to her post are over the top.
 

petite

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But no, calling someone a gypsy pickpocket is just fine!

No, it's not.

For some Americans, though, it doesn't have the same emotional impact because we don't have so few Gypsies here and a lot of people here have never witnessed racism against them. Most people who have strong emotional reactions over racism have them because of negative personal experiences, and not a lot of people in the US have had those experiences with Gypsies, which makes the subject more academic and less visceral.

Let's say I walking down a dark street alone with no one around and I heard footsteps behind me and felt afraid because I know that this is a dangerous street and I'm a 100 lb Asian woman. If I look behind me to see who is back there and react with more fear if I see a young black man who is dressed in an urban style than if I saw a young white man dressed in a button down shirt and tie, then that's racial profiling, which I consider to be racist, but would that racist reaction be mitigated by the fact that it's a fear reaction caused by the fact that I know that in this area, most of the violence is committed by young black men? Or would I be naive to assume that I'm safe because I'm unfairly judging the young black man, not having gotten to know him?

That's what I mean about not really knowing where I stand when it comes to judging her based upon this one circumstance. Yes, I find what she said to be undoubtedly racist and that it was wrong, but I'm not entirely sure that what she did was unforgivably wrong.
 
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D_Gunther Snotpole

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Assuming that a gypsy sitting all away across the room is a pickpocket is as wrong as assuming a black dude all the way across the room is a pick-pocket. Sure, some gypsies are crooked. Some of every group is crooked. The gypsies I know raise horses.
Here is what she wrote:
I did notice that she had a Romanian passport to which I said to my guy “no wonder, she couldn’t respond in Italian” and also “we need to be careful because the greatest numbers of gypsies come from Romania and my experience with them is that they are pickpockets.”
Two things:
The greatest number of gypsies don't come from Romania, but Romania does have one of the largest groups of gypsies in Europe.
When she says, "my experience with [Romanian gypsies] is that they are pickpockets" is grossly overwrought if she really means that every single Romanian gypsies are pickpockets.
But I wonder if that's what she really means.
I think she is more guilty of imprecision than racism.
(Of course, I don't know her ... maybe she is racist.)

You say, "Assuming that a gypsy sitting all away across the room is a pickpocket is as wrong as assuming a black dude all the way across the room is a pick-pocket."

Why do you say that? Was the gypsy all the way across the room? Not in my reading. She was close up, and the OP seemed to feel crowded by her. Quite a different situation.

I think it would be outrageous to assume that "a black dude all the way across the room is a pick-pocket." No argument there.

Is making the assumption that someone you think might be a gypsy and who is crowding you might be a pickpocket equally outrageous? Not to my mind. You should look for the stats. I actually have a few, which I may post if I find time.

The gypsies I know raise horses.

The gypsies I (slightly) knew were building a house in Marseilles. Fine people, and straight as arrows, as far as I knew.



I wonder if the OP has irritated many of you before.

On the evidence of her opening post in this thread, I just don't see cause for all the criticism.

I have to go out now, so I guess I'm done.
 

Gillette

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It is wild and yes, rather paranoid thinking, but quite normal, in my view.
I don't equate "wild" and "paranoid" with "normal".

She didn't make a link between Romanians and thievery.
No?

I did notice that she had a Romanian passport to which I said to my guy “no wonder, she couldn’t respond in Italian” and also “we need to be careful because the greatest numbers of gypsies come from Romania and my experience with them is that they are pickpockets.”

"We need to be careful", presumably of being pickpocketed by the woman with the Romanian passport. Apparently because Romanian -> Gypsy -> Pickpocket.
Unless you're saying that pickpocketing isn't thievery.

But it wasn't the thought that the woman was Romanian that gave her concern, but the thought that the woman was a Romanian gypsy.
So ... no.
Yes due to precisely the reason you stated. The gypsy suggestion comes from CC seeing the Romanian passport. Not Dutch or Turkish, Romanian.

Here's the thing, even if such a thing as a Gypsy passport existed and this woman had one it should not be used to justify one's fears.

If a woman walking home alone at night felt she was being followed that alone is a reason to be fearful.
If she scampers home in time to see the person walk by and sees that their black it is bigoted, racist and fucking assholish of her to say, "He's black, I had good reason to be scared".

Her using the woman's nationality as justification for her earlier concern is the same fucked up thinking.