brave new iraq: a job well done

[Dr Rock]

After all, I believe in the law, does that make me a right-winger?

only from the perspective of someone like me. unfortunately for you, it's an unavoidable fact that i'm always right :biggrin1:

 

[Freddie53]

Screw politics.

You don't have to be right-wing to be a fool and a complete and utter motherfucker.

After all, I believe in the law, does that make me a right-winger?

The law usually rules. Never as the law been always rright. Thre fact that laws are changing shows that our needs and wants are also changing. or the needs and wants of the rulers are changing.

 

[madame_zora]

it's an unavoidable fact that i'm always right :biggrin1:

Dammit, that really sucks. I wanted to be right.


I can imagine the personal trauma that many americans will be facing when they are forced to realise that almost everything they've been told, everything they believe in was just 10 pounds of shit in a five pound bag. The fact that the average person simply cannot absorb that kind of information is why we are here to begin with. Most people could never entertain the possibility that OUR government is the one spitting out propaganda, manipulating it's people for profit and bastardising our religous and moral tenets. I have a feeling that if this all comes to light, we are going to see a rash of suicides and depression.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

The law usually rules. Never as the law been always rright. Thre fact that laws are changing shows that our needs and wants are also changing. or the needs and wants of the rulers are changing.

Bloody hippies!

Anyway, I remain "agressively neutral" in most cases unless it realms into the "shut the fuck up" realm.

--------------------------------

Oh, Dr Rock, you may always be right, but I'm LEFT!

YEAH!

 

[Freddie53]

Bloody hippies!

Anyway, I remain "agressively neutral" in most cases unless it realms into the "shut the fuck up" realm.

--------------------------------
YEAH!

Now that I am a "hippie" again, could I please have my long hair back again? The top is mighty exposed

By the way, Orca, are you a Tory, Labour, or Social Democrat?
Next time you have tea with the Queen, tell her I said hello. She is a distant cousin you know.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

I remain "agressively neutral". Blair is a fucking liar, Brown is a fatass, That conservative "geezer" (the name I forget) is only good at pretending to cuss and the liberals are stupid fuckwits.

I mean, they support their leader WHILE he is an alcoholic, but as soon as he admits he's weening himself, they disown him?

Oh, and don't get me started on how people bitch that paying to get into the house of Lords is wrong. Hmmm.. the lords aren't DEMOCRATIC ANYWAY!

Oh, and I'm not really a fan of the Queen either. I feel that they wouldn't be too bad if the media didn't swoon over them like drunk spooging roaches. I don't care if Harry or William is going to Iraq, at least it'll divert the attention of the suicide bombers and other nutcases.

I live in the London where people just try to live their lives and earn a living, (or in my case, sponge around trying to find a job to earn a living while trying to revise for exams.)

 

[solong]

And do we include the Christian extremists in the emasculation and castration frenzy or do we let them slide because it hits too close to home?

This puerile, kindergarten disdain for Christians begins with a label-- a false picture that you and others place on us. Of all people, a moderator of a forum should be above such crap. I guess you just couldn't help yourself??

Ironic-- some people really hate it when someone labels them, but just give 'em a chance, and they'll knock the other guy down and all start kicking together. Kings of the double-standard, I guess you'd say. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Don't you think that nobbody but you observes self-righteousness in other people? Well then if you REALLY know what it is-- like you claim to-- then the first place you should find it is in yourselves.

It pisses me off to see this done by a label, to anybody, at anytime. Dr. Rock talks about the United States helping Iraq form a f"acist government." Hell, he obviously never faced a REAL fascist government, and yet he would apparently opt for one over here in a New York minute.

Dr. Rock, the first things the fascists did when they came to power, was to label everybody they didn't like. The opposite of fascist is finding a common ground in which to work and trade. When you label a country fascist, who have two houses and a president, and that government must vote and have a consensus, etc. etc. and it also has a judicial branch, then your opinions are no longer viable. You are taken apart by the facts and left strewn all over the floor. You make it sound like you're just a hothead that blew up.

Now I agree that Islam is very divisive, but it also divided its own followers into factions as well. It's still doing it. So you can't LABEL all Islam like you're doing. It shows ignorance of the subject.

The problem with labeling is, it always returns to bite you right in the ass. It shows, first of all, that you don't know what you're talking about when you over-generalize. It shows that you yourself subscribe to the first tenant of fascism. And it tells other people a lot about you-- "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones."

The United States did not set up a fascist government. The metaphor about gays being dumped on was inapplicable, and I don't know of another country in the world where gays are less criticized and more fully accepted than ours. But narrow-minded, self-righteous,judgmental people are throughout all societies and groups, and that definitely includes the gay community, as well. And when you have a klatch of judgmental, sniveling gays willing to judge Christians as they imagine Christians are judging them, there's no end to their snide remarks and hateful commentary, but they in turn are judging themselves. They let everybody know what kind of small-minded person they are. They aere doing exactly what they accuse others of doing, and by so doing, we are all able to see who the self-righteous bigots truly are, by nature.

Now don't blame me for pointing this out to everybody. You did it to yourselves, and you only have yourselves to bblame. Why not shape up and stop sucking eggs, and see how much happier you are, and how much better outlook you have for havving stopped banging your collective heads against the wall?

 

[D_alex8]

This puerile, kindergarten disdain for Christians begins with a label-- a false picture that you and others place on us. Of all people, a moderator of a forum should be above such crap. I guess you just couldn't help yourself??

First, I would like to point out that you are being excessively confrontational in your recent posts imho.

Second, I wonder why you are unable to read the difference between "Christian extremists" and "Christians". You even quote back to the damn phrase "Christian extremists" before commencing your rant.

Third, moderators are allowed to have personal opinions as well. Unless they state specifically in a post something along the lines of "I am speaking as a moderator", then please bear this in mind.

 

[solong]

First, I would like to point out that you are being excessively confrontational in your recent posts imho.

Second, I wonder why you are unable to read the difference between "Christian extremists" and "Christians". You even quote back to the damn phrase "Christian extremists" before commencing your rant.

Third, moderators are allowed to have personal opinions as well. Unless they state specifically in a post something along the lines of "I am speaking as a moderator", then please bear this in mind.

Well first, Alex8, I wasn't the one who started it, by on the other hand, I have balls, and I'm not going to let you toss out labels on me and many other members of this forum without telling you how we think about it. Confrontational? You haven't seen "Confrontational," yet. This is presently a polite discussion about what you are trying to set up-- a gay kicking club against Christians or anybody who would dare "come out of the closet." Your motives are so transparent, it stinks. You hope to make it a place where Christians dare not apply.

Secondly, tell me, Alex, what IS the difference, to an atheist, bbetween a Christian extremistr and a Christian? To an atheist, any Christian belongs to the "Christian Right Wing" and they are all insane. So your label Christian Extremist can be shortened to Chrsitian. Stop playing word games with me. I don't fall for it.

Third-- moderators are certainly allowed to have opinions. We rely on them to keep the ball rolling in the right direction. That's what moderators are supposed to do, and isntead, Lex is getting down with Dr. Rock and a few others like yourself, apparently, and labeling people. So don't blame me for taking offense.

If I started talking about gays that way, you'd have a damned fit. But it so happens that some of my very best friends are gay and I have their total respect-- simply because I am like I am, and I call a spade a spade, and they know they can trust me and my attitude about everybody. They know they are not judged badly by me. If I like them, I include them like everybody else and we have a great time.

I would encourage you all to do the same and be decent human beings, and stop the bigotry before it spills over into all these threads and you find your enemies from one and follow him around and diss him every chance you get. Stop the pissing and have something constructive to offer.

 

[inkubus963]

Well first, Alex8, I wasn't the one who started it, by on the other hand, I have balls, and I'm not going to let you toss out labels on me and many other members of this forum without telling you how we think about it. Confrontational? You haven't seen "Confrontational," yet. This is presently a polite discussion about what you are trying to set up-- a gay kicking club against Christians or anybody who would dare "come out of the closet." Your motives are so transparent, it stinks. You hope to make it a place where Christians dare not apply.

1. I'm lost. How does Dr. Rock posting about Muslim intolerance to gays in Iraq set up this club to which you refer?

2. I didn't notice any harping on Christians, just questioning as to whether Christian extremists would be lumped with other extremists.

3. I take exception to someone self-elected telling anyone how "we" think without prior discussion among "us". You might, of course, consider that I am some form of unacceptable Christian, and so choose to render my points are invalid, so be it.

4. Unfortunately, beginning a response with any form of "He started it!" usually discredits one. I recommend calming oneself, so that passion does not undermine logical debate.

5. If you honestly feel that Christians are being discriminated against here, by all means open a new thread of discussion, where that can be the topic of focus.

 

[D_alex8]

I would encourage you all to do the same and be decent human beings, and stop the bigotry before it spills over into all these threads and you find your enemies from one and follow him around and diss him every chance you get. Stop the pissing and have something constructive to offer.

Like inkubus, I am quite lost. You appear to be at such a delusional tangent that I don't have any idea how to communicate with you. All I'm getting from your post is misguided anger and a desire for martyrdom.

 

[solong]

Like inkubus, I am quite lost. You appear to be at such a delusional tangent that I don't have any idea how to communicate with you. All I'm getting from your post is misguided anger and a desire for martyrdom.

Well then let me remind you what's been going down, here:

Dr. Rock: "just some more charming anecdotes about the joys of life under the fascist theocracy that our governments recently installed in iraq." That says America created a fascist government for the purpose of killing gays (which he alludes to later)

Stronzo: "Good GOD Rock. They are turning it into the United States!" (There’s Dr. Rocks confirmation that he’s on the right track.)

Lex: "Fuck. All in the smokescreen of democracy disgusing our oil dependency and interests." (We did it for the oil. In other words, we crerated a fascist government on purpose to get oil, and killing gays would be an unfortunate side effect.)

"Never let it be said they we don't bring the bad with the good." (Lex agrees with the premise, totally)

Lex: "And do we include the Christian extremists in the emasculation and castration frenzy or do we let them slide because it hits too close to home?" (We Christians can’t say anything because that’s what we all do, so we let it slide and keep it quiet. What absolute crap!)

Stronzo: "Kill the little nobodies but for the love of Christ don't expose them to sex." (Stronzo’s now speaking for the “Christians,” as though this is what they naturally believe. The twisted goody-goody label.)

"Nice priorities we're spreading." (Yes, it’s the Christian priority, according to Stronzo. You know, “rascism, bigotry, castrating or hanging gays, murdering children, but don’t expose them to sex because that isn’t good…”)

I think you get the point. Now I also noticed that Alex8 has some very interesting comments of a constructive nature here, and has brought this discussion a level of respectability that I can appreciate and learn from, too! So, thanks for that, Alex. A bad example degrades everybody, and a good example raises the bar. So now we’re talking.

I'm no martyr, believe me. But when I start getting a smell in my nose that something's going awry, I'll say so. Let's not diss people because they are Christian, or because they are Islamic, or Atheist, or anything else. That doesn't make friends, and I consider you guys my friends. Obviously, I'm Christian, too, and obviously, I'm not a prude. So where does that leave some of these comments? When you generalize a religion, you label it.

You don't like people who say, "All gays are going to hell. All atheists are going to hell. All Islamists are going to hell" And I don't either. But instead, we are supposed to appreciate "All Islamists are religious bigots who hate gays and will murder them because they can get away with it?" Or, "Christians don't mind shooting little children, castrating gays, or turrning Iraq into a fascist state for the sake of getting free oil and let the devil take the hindmost, but sex? Oh, they can't even abide the thought!"

So all I'm asking that we do is get our minds out of the gutter of hypocrisy, self-righteousness, and judgmental labelism, and provoke constructive thought. It helps everybody.

 

[madame_zora]

Well then let me remind you what's been going down, here:

Dr. Rock: "just some more charming anecdotes about the joys of life under the fascist theocracy that our governments recently installed in iraq." That says America created a fascist government for the purpose of killing gays (which he alludes to later)

No, actually he says our governments, reading what you quote might help, champ.

Stronzo:

Good GOD Rock. They are turning it into the United States!" (There’s Dr. Rocks confirmation that he’s on the right track.)

Yeah, I can see where that would be offensive, someone agreeing with someone other than you.

Lex:

Fuck. All in the smokescreen of democracy disgusing our oil dependency and interests." (We did it for the oil. In other words, we crerated a fascist government on purpose to get oil, and killing gays would be an unfortunate side effect.)

So now you're a mindreader? The Amazing Kreskin is shaking in his boots. Wait, the smoke is clearing- you're one of the last people in America to believe we're there to help the poor disenfranchised Iraqi people.

"Never let it be said they we don't bring the bad with the good." (Lex agrees with the premise, totally)

Well yeah, I guess imposing our brand of Democrasy on a nation of people not ready to accept it thus bringing them even closer to complete civil war where they were before somewhat stable in addition to reviving their intolerance toward gays is all good.

Lex: "And do we include the Christian extremists in the emasculation and castration frenzy or do we let them slide because it hits too close to home?" (We Christians can’t say anything because that’s what we all do, so we let it slide and keep it quiet. What absolute crap!)

If you're not a Christian extremist then it doesn't refer to you. However, if you support Holy War, you are an extremist and Jesus himself is weeping. You might remember a little quote of his saying "Put away your swords"?

Stronzo: "Kill the little nobodies but for the love of Christ don't expose them to sex." (Stronzo’s now speaking for the “Christians,” as though this is what they naturally believe. The twisted goody-goody label.)

Other than grandstanding, do you have a point? The neocon fundies running this show are certainly more liberal in dealing out death than tolerance.

"Nice priorities we're spreading." (Yes, it’s the Christian priority, according to Stronzo. You know, “rascism, bigotry, castrating or hanging gays, murdering children, but don’t expose them to sex because that isn’t good…”)

Yes, now you're getting the picture.

I think you get the point. Now I also noticed that Alex8 has some very interesting comments of a constructive nature here, and has brought this discussion a level of respectability that I can appreciate and learn from, too! So, thanks for that, Alex. A bad example degrades everybody, and a good example raises the bar. So now we’re talking.

I'm no martyr, believe me. But when I start getting a smell in my nose that something's going awry, I'll say so. Let's not diss people because they are Christian, or because they are Islamic, or Atheist, or anything else. That doesn't make friends, and I consider you guys my friends. Obviously, I'm Christian, too, and obviously, I'm not a prude. So where does that leave some of these comments? When you generalize a religion, you label it.

But you see, no one dissed Christians. EXTREMISTS of all religions were lumped together, and that INCLUDES Christians. If you didn't have such a persecution complex, you would have read that in the very quotes you found annoying. If you ever wonder why you're being marginalised (and you are), it is because of this.

You don't like people who say, "All gays are going to hell. All atheists are going to hell. All Islamists are going to hell" And I don't either. But instead, we are supposed to appreciate "All Islamists are religious bigots who hate gays and will murder them because they can get away with it?" Or, "Christians don't mind shooting little children, castrating gays, or turrning Iraq into a fascist state for the sake of getting free oil and let the devil take the hindmost, but sex? Oh, they can't even abide the thought!"

But there are plenty of non-extremist Christian groups who do say all gays and members of other religions are going to hell. So now what? Do you want me to pull up literally thousands of quotes by morons like Jerry Fartwell and friends about how evil everyone who isn't in this one group is destined for an internity of burning in flames? If you identify yourself as such, then don't be surprised when those your religion condemns don't want to play softball with you. We have plenty of Christian members of this board who command just as much respect as the non-Christians, but that is because they are secure enough in their faith to retain their love for Christ and the Bible, and still renounce it's misuse by our corrupt government. If you support our government's invasion on false pretenses, that's your problem pal, and it's a problem you'll be having for a while. Cognitive dissonance is one diagnosis.

So all I'm asking that we do is get our minds out of the gutter of hypocrisy, self-righteousness, and judgmental labelism, and provoke constructive thought. It helps everybody.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much, but gawd that was a good laugh.

 

[solong]

[But there are plenty of non-extremist Christian groups who do say all gays and members of other religions are going to hell. So now what? Do you want me to pull up literally thousands of quotes by morons like Jerry Fartwell and friends about how evil everyone who isn't in this one group is destined for an internity of burning in flames? If you identify yourself as such, then don't be surprised when those your religion condemns don't want to play softball with you. We have plenty of Christian members of this board who command just as much respect as the non-Christians, but that is because they are secure enough in their faith to retain their love for Christ and the Bible, and still renounce it's misuse by our corrupt government. If you support our government's invasion on false pretenses, that's your problem pal, and it's a problem you'll be having for a while. Cognitive dissonance is one diagnosis.


Methinks the lady doth protest too much, but gawd that was a good laugh.[/quote]

Much I could say, but I'll just take the summation here, since this is the crux.

You say there are plenty of Christian groups who damn us to hell. Yeah, possibly, I don't know, and I doubt that you will ever be able to give as much as a single example of that. Oh, you fogot to mention that the BTK serial killer was a devout Christian, and he's just typical of millions of like minds.

I don't have anything to do with Jerry Falwell, but why would he impugn that the rest of us are all going to hell, when he is trying to make friends? I mean, have you actually heard him say that? (I don't actually know). I don't follow their movement.

But impugning that it's typical, is labeling. It's what I suggested we try to steer away from. Then we don't have to say, "Ahem, present company excluded, of course."

 

[B_Stronzo]

You say there are plenty of Christian groups who damn us to hell. Yeah, possibly, I don't know, and I doubt that you will ever be able to give as much as a single example of that.

solong?

Oh I'll 'label' all right. Just watch me. They're fucked, all of those Bible-thumping fundies. There, done.

Here's just one 'example': Aren't they just too cute??

www.godhatesfags.com

Any questions?

You haven't a leg to stand on.

 

[Freddie53]

Solong,

We have really made a big splash to then admit you dont know what the hell you are talking about. So Basic Christianity 101.

Christianity proclaims to follow the teachings of Jesus.

But Jesus said their would be false prophets.

Fundieland Christianity:

1. Everyone is headed straightway to a hell of burning flames where their soulwill burn forever.

2. Jesus comes into the world. Dies, raises from the dead. He is God and can rescue people

3. The fundies get to decide who he will rescue and who he will send to hell.

4. To get saved from the fire, according the the fundies, a person must prayer the sinner's prayer. This prayer is not in the Bible. But if you don't pray it, you are damned to heaven.

5. I don't have the latest version learned by heart, so I guess I will join everyone on the thread in hell.

6. The prayer goes something like this. I am a wretched sinner. I did it all, everything. I can't go to heaven now. Please save me. and most important in the next phase. I accept Jesus Christ as my PERSONAL SAVIOR. I am letting Jesus come INTO MY HEART.

7. If you ever doubt this sinner's prayer than you must pray it again and get baptised again.

8.. All sins are forgiven. EXCEPT: Homosexuality. This is unforgivable. To even think about doing it much less doing it, is unforgivable. Go straight to hell, Do not pass Go. Do not collect $100.

Other sins that can't be forgiven include: premarital sex unless specific prayers of confession are given. Masturbation: Unforgivable. Won't necessarily go to hell, but will suffer greatly here on earth. Abortion: Unforgivable. Diviorce: Depends on who it is and how much they gave the church and minister this year.

In general, any sin that a fundie thinks he hasn't done is unforgivable. Any sin that the fundie knows he has done was forgivien at calvery absolutely NO PROBLEM. Not the same for others who commited the same sin though.

Fundies also believe that Jesus only came to save Christians just like them. all other people will go to hell. Heaven will be a small place in number. Hell will be quite big.

Fundies believe in the state of Israel. The Jews are the chosen people of God. They deserve special previledges here on earth just because they are Jews. But when they die since they don't have JESUS, they will fry like everyone else in hell.

Fundies belive in a special type of holiiness called holier art me. The goal of a non fundie is to come to the church be be lke one of the fundies.

Prosperity Gospel. Anything you want, find the right verse, say the right prayer. Bingo it is yours.

Fundies are supposed to ever have to suffer. They are to live a life above everyone else because quite frankly they are better than everyone else.

I could go on and one but.

Real Chrisitanity

Follow the teachings of Christ. Jesus did what was right and was murdered fo it. True Christians promote love, not hate. Compassion, not condemnation. Unselfeshness, not being selfish. Giving, not receiving, dieing to self to become like Jesus, not live a life based on me, only me.

Orthodox Christians do believe that Jesus came to die on a cross to save sinners. ALL SINNERS. Orthodox Christians beliieve that all sins were forgiven that day on Calvery. EVERY LAST SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Salvation is based on following Jesus who to those who haven't heard of him will think of it as their conscience as well as some who have heard of him.

Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. Jesus said I have flock in orther lands that don't know me by the name you know me that I have to go and meet.

Orthodox Christians understand that God is all powerful and can speak to every person without anyone else's help.

Bottom line: Every person walks a life. What was that person's relationship to God and what God thought was important?

There will be Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Native Americans, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists and the list goes on that will share eternity with a loving God who wants everyone of his children in his house with him.

Fundies are fools in preaching hate, deceit, and exclusiveness that somehow their little group got all the answers and the rest of us are just orphans.

That is blasphemy to what Jesus himself taught when Jesus was here on earth.

Fundies are in that gorup that want to use force to make others be like them.

It is the fundie mentality that got us in the forsaken war.

I am going to now condemn myself and fellow Orhodox mainline Christians. It is because we sat on our asses and let this whole debacle take place.

Fundalmentalism in any religions or political group is dangerous. We know that and we let the fundie take over with war in Iraq happen in America and the whole world has to suffer for it.

I know I left a lot out. Didn't mean to. But this is one post that is already too long.

GOD LOVES YOU AND SO DO I. GOD LOVES EVERYONE. GOD ONLY WANTS WHAT IS BEST FOR HIS CHIDLREN.

It isn't Jesus who does the condemning. It is a bunch of "fundie" and in my book false Christians who are doing so. The Jesus I believe in is powerful enough to take care of himself. If he doesn't like what someone does, he can through his spirit tell them.

JESUS SAID GO, AND TELL THE GOOD NEWS. Jesus never said. "Go and tell the world how sorry they are." You want find that in the good book.

Oh yeah, hell. Hell in the Bible was the word for the dumb outside the city of Jerusalem, the fire never went out, but new trash was continusouly added to the fire. So God cast new feelings of hate, deciet, selfishness, wrong living and other atrributes into the lake of fire. Hell was never made for humans. (My personal belief is that someone who doesn't want to live in heaven just cease to exist. I personnaly don't believe in a fire where a person is feels the pain fo buring for eternity. Just dont' believe it.)

AS A PROFESSING CHRISTIAN, I PASS THE PEACE ON TO EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU.

Others feel free to add attributes of the fundies and attributes of the real Christians who have love for everyone.

Freddie

 

[inkubus963]

AS A PROFESSING CHRISTIAN, I PASS THE PEACE ON TO EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU.
Freddie

Preach. On. Brother.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Freddie?

Marry me! (in a Buddhist ceremony of course...)

You give great perspective to the nasty narrowness of those loosely grouped as "Fundies" and those who really follow the teachings of Christ. Thanks.

 

[solong]

Freddie,

Since I don't belong to any church, since I cannot be labeled as a "Fundie," and since I am also not Catholic or berlong to any denomination whatever, and would not darken the door of any church that I know about, I'd guess you have to call me agnostic, wouldn't you?

(Noticed your sacred heart tattooed on your avatar's chest. Funny how you'd attack everybody else who doesn't go to your church and put all those words in their mouths. Somehow, I don't think that's really "Catholic," but, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Maybe your priest would give you an extra sprinkle for doing that, huh?).

I thought a hallmark of Christianity was Charity-- kindness? I don't read anything of the sort in your remarks. All I see is judgmentalism.

But Isn't it written in your Bible somewhere--"As ye judge, so shall ye also be judged?"

And isn't it also written in your Bible somewhere--"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Hmm.

Who are those who deceive many? Those directing people TOWARD the BIBLE, or AWAY from it? Those who castigate everyone who do not beling to their faith? If that's the way of the Apostles, then why have Apostles? So if the "Fundies" are chasing people away or condemning them to hell, they aren't really "Fundies," are they? And if your condemnations are a perfect example why Christ was crucified, then you have proven to those who don't know any better how much that was deserved.

You have, so far, de-legitimized your own faith and you can claim otherwise all you wish, but once you shame your savior's teachings by ignoring them, then your claims ring pretty hollow in my ears.

By the way,

Just because someone quotes scripture doesn't mean he's Christian, you know. Satan can quote any scripture you want to hear, too. I thought real Christianity is told to judge the works, and do not condemn any man.

I somehow think you are condemning the straw dog--what I call "Churchianity." That's what the fool does.

 

[Dr Rock]

if jesus showed up in america today, he'd be in guantanamo bay by next week