Brené Brown / Male Vulnerability

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deleted1547822

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So my wife has been on a Brené Brown kick lately. For those that might not know, she’s a social worker that has studied vulnerability, joy, relationships, etc... She has a special on Netflix and several TED videos on YouTube.

A lot of what she has discovered makes sense, but as I was listening to her talk I began thinking “yeah right, no woman wants a man who exhibits the vulnerability she describes”. Shortly thereafter, she brought up that exact point; using an example of a husband/father whose wife and daughters were fans of Mrs. Brown. While getting books signed, he asked about her research and men. She replied that her research was primarily regarding women, and he noted “that’s convenient” and “those three women would rather die than see me fall off my ‘white horse’”.

My wife and I talked about it, and she agreed that she had reservations about “male vulnerability”; mainly that it would scare her (I haven’t quite figured out the nuances of that remark...). Anyway, I was wondering what other women might think.

How do you feel about an emotionally vulnerable man? Is it the antithesis of confidence? How much is acceptable?
 

LaFemme

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I love Brené Brown.

I don’t think an emotionally vulnerable man is the antithesis of a confidant man. I think it depends on what your definition of emotionally vulnerable might be. If it mean being one of the walking wounded, constantly open to hurt, then no. But if it means being deeply aware of ones own vulnerabilities, one’s own ability to hurt, to be hurt and heal, and to grow, then I view that as a strength. I think that lends itself to confidence.

True confidence is built on really knowing yourself. It’s not built on telling yourself lies about yourself. It’s about knowing who you are, and accepting yourself, all with the full intention of doing better every day.
 
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I suppose I don’t have a definition of an emotionally vulnerable man. I guess it’s in terms of “vulnerable” as described by Brown. She gives a different example in the Netflix special, talking about an event where her husband and children were in danger from a boat while swimming. He was shaken as he experienced the possibility of the death or serious injury of their children. He was unable to even talk after the incident, and explained why.

She noted that her first inclination would have been to tease (ridicule?) him, but she’s grown as a result of her work and realized the seeming contradiction between what she advocates and what she felt. Interestingly, she (to my knowledge) still hasn’t reconciled her recognition of the dilemma with advice for men - not that she’s obligated to.

I found it interesting that there’s a conflict with what she advocates (and I think it explains the human emotional condition well) and the natural(?) inclinations of women.

As an aside, and without getting into all the reasons I ended up on a forum like this, I’m an armchair psychologist/sociologist and am both fascinated and baffled by this place. I have also grown to appreciate and respect the thought you ladies put into your posts.
 

LaFemme

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I suppose I don’t have a definition of an emotionally vulnerable man. I guess it’s in terms of “vulnerable” as described by Brown. She gives a different example in the Netflix special, talking about an event where her husband and children were in danger from a boat while swimming. He was shaken as he experienced the possibility of the death or serious injury of their children. He was unable to even talk after the incident, and explained why.

She noted that her first inclination would have been to tease (ridicule?) him, but she’s grown as a result of her work and realized the seeming contradiction between what she advocates and what she felt. Interestingly, she (to my knowledge) still hasn’t reconciled her recognition of the dilemma with advice for men - not that she’s obligated to.

I found it interesting that there’s a conflict with what she advocates (and I think it explains the human emotional condition well) and the natural(?) inclinations of women.

As an aside, and without getting into all the reasons I ended up on a forum like this, I’m an armchair psychologist/sociologist and am both fascinated and baffled by this place. I have also grown to appreciate and respect the thought you ladies put into your posts.
I watched that, and I totally got what was going on in that situation with the boat. However, my takeaway was more about the stories we tell ourselves and less about his emotional vulnerability. She was playing a completely different movie in her head about why he wasn’t listening to her, one in which he no longer found her attractive, etc. In the meantime, he’s having a completely different emotional experience.

The lesson I took away, is that we have to quit telling ourselves stories, quit guessing what our partner’s might be thinking and be truly in the moment. We need to listen for those moments of vulnerability in order to grow closer towards. Don’t guess, but listen, ask.

I don’t know if men do those kind of things, but I think a lot of women over analyze, overthink comments and expressions of the men in our lives. We tell ourselves a story about what things might really mean instead of being fully present. We analyze instead of asking and listening. We might miss the vulnerabilities of our partners and a chance to grow closer if we don’t just make stuff up in our own heads.
 
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deleted1547822

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I don’t know if men do those kind of things, but I think a lot of women over analyze, overthink comments and expressions of the men in our lives. We tell ourselves a story about what things might really mean instead of being fully present. We analyze instead of asking and listening. We might miss the vulnerabilities of our partners and a chance to grow closer if we don’t just make stuff up in our own heads.

Early in our relationship, she used to tell me how complicated men were. I would try to explain just how simple we really were. A definite Venus/Mars situation. When our son was born, I told her “ok, now you get to see one from the start!” When he was 4 or 5, she said “You’re right. All you guys do is eat, sleep and play with toys. You’re just a 6 foot version of him...”

Now we just laugh at this meme, and she actually uses it when she’s mentoring younger women. A lot of times when I’m really quiet, she’ll just ask “Motorcycle won’t start?”

2570321-1573175243-6758e671d2b3ebd1e307f5b04acf6c0e.jpg
 

LaFemme

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Early in our relationship, she used to tell me how complicated men were. I would try to explain just how simple we really were. A definite Venus/Mars situation. When our son was born, I told her “ok, now you get to see one from the start!” When he was 4 or 5, she said “You’re right. All you guys do is eat, sleep and play with toys. You’re just a 6 foot version of him...”

Now we just laugh at this meme, and she actually uses it when she’s mentoring younger women. A lot of times when I’m really quiet, she’ll just ask “Motorcycle won’t start?”

2570321-1573175243-6758e671d2b3ebd1e307f5b04acf6c0e.jpg
Exactly. Quit telling a story in your head that probably isn’t true. It probably is a a motorcycle problem, or it might be Brené’s husband’s fear. It just isn’t whats happening in your head.
 
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deleted1547822

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So back on topic with the husband's fear thing. You're right and I remember a good part of it being her description of the miscommunication, but the last part of it was that she realized that she never allowed him to be vulnerable to her without ribbing him.

Men bottle up their emotions and shove them down on the Bill Burr "shelf of anger" (another of our favorite metaphors). A few years ago, stuff that I had been carrying around on that shelf for a long time came out. She listened quietly. It was quite a load off, and I correlated that with what Brown talks about (and how men don't and perhaps can't do that). Her response later was "I felt like you handed me this fragile Faberge egg and I was afraid I'd break it". That's perhaps my best understanding of her being "scared". Note that's the only time I've done that in 25 years of marriage. I'd just had enough and let it out. The thing she doesn't know is that she's always got that egg.
 

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When I'm in love, and open to long-term partnership, I let more of myself out. I'm a fairly open book, but I have my secrets, fears, wounds, and insecurities. I will begin to share these, little by little, as opportunity presents, when I feel loved. I want to be understood, and trusted, and I am willing to be the first to extend that trust.

If I am solicitous, and feel I have proven myself trustworthy, I begin to await reciprocation. If it is not forthcoming, and he will not be vulnerable to me, and with me, I withdraw. I will name my concerns out loud, and offer opportunity to pull me back in. If the opportunity is not taken, I feel unloved, more and more, and I will slowly retreat, and eventually be quite distant, or maybe even gone.

I cannot trust a man who refuses to trust me too. And away with my trust goes some of my love. From a partner, I expect a deeper level of friendship. I need him to be his whole self with me, to let me love him, warts and all. I need him to trust me with his vulnerability, or I start to think of him as just a good friend, not my man. Your mileage may vary.
 

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As an aside, and without getting into all the reasons I ended up on a forum like this, I’m an armchair psychologist/sociologist and am both fascinated and baffled by this place. I have also grown to appreciate and respect the thought you ladies put into your posts.

I need to.... :D follow you based on this paragraph alone :innocent::heart:
 
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I watched that, and I totally got what was going on in that situation with the boat. However, my takeaway was more about the stories we tell ourselves and less about his emotional vulnerability. She was playing a completely different movie in her head about why he wasn’t listening to her, one in which he no longer found her attractive, etc. In the meantime, he’s having a completely different emotional experience.

The lesson I took away, is that we have to quit telling ourselves stories, quit guessing what our partner’s might be thinking and be truly in the moment. We need to listen for those moments of vulnerability in order to grow closer towards. Don’t guess, but listen, ask.

I don’t know if men do those kind of things, but I think a lot of women over analyze, overthink comments and expressions of the men in our lives. We tell ourselves a story about what things might really mean instead of being fully present. We analyze instead of asking and listening. We might miss the vulnerabilities of our partners and a chance to grow closer if we don’t just make stuff up in our own heads.

I like how you processed what Brene was communicating.

I relate to the lessons you took away. I'm also curious about whether men go through similar internal battles. I could relate to the stories she was telling herself. Stories that riled her up emotionally, and brought her out of rational decision making territory. The cool thing to me was that she was able to recognize what was happening and before she really lashed out, or took hurtful action (our words can't be unspoken), action that was unnecessary and didn't give her husband the benefit of the doubt...yeah.... amazing woman, that Brené!
 
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+1 to AE's post.

If a man isn't emotionally vulnerable, he won't make it in a long-term relationship with me. It's what I give and it's what I expect. Although, if it's too much too soon, it may scare me off. It's a fine line.
 

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Although, if it's too much too soon, it may scare me off. It's a fine line.
Well, my post turned into a whole THING.

TL;DR I concur. It can be hard to tell the difference between an emotional leap of faith and some sheisty asshole, but I believe experience is a good teacher.

If you make it all the way through my stream of consciousness, thanks. And. Sorry. LOL




Too much too soon, and I will be triggered. It won't feel authentic to me. If it does seem authentic, I will worry about codependency. I have a tendency to make other people's problems my problem. I overwhelm myself. That's fine if the relationship is real. But if it's just to artificially instill a sense of intimacy, well, I've had my heart broken that way before.

I have written here before about a relationship I had with a probable sociopath. This was a warning sign I ignored. He was just so wonderful in every way. It was like he was made just for me to love. Of course, that was all an act. The goal was to make me fall in love, specifically to hurt me.

The most glaring example came about a month after I agreed, finally, to be exclusive. He saved my life. I will be forever grateful. We were in my old neighborhood, where I grew up. He went out to get me some food in the hope that would strengthen me. I had just had a diabetic emergency, and while my blood sugar was too low, a virus took root.

As I lay in bed, nearly delirious from fever, my phone seemed like it was going to explode. I got countless phone calls and texts from people who recognized my (very unique) name, but not the man in tears at the pizza shop, literally crying to my former neighbor (his cousin) "[AlteredEgo] cannot die! I love her so much! I love [AlteredEgo]." Or some such nonsense.

Though the words had not been exchanged, I did already love him. That trip, an urgent and complicated errand, was meant to test the strength of what we were building, and I planned to tell him I was in love with him at the end. I also felt loved. So, I wasn't put off by the declaration itself. The drama of it would have seemed contrived if it had been anyone else.

But when I had him explain his tattoos to me, I learned that his fiancee had been murdered while he was at boot camp. He did eventually marry someone else, but he said until his daughter was born, he had never loved anyone else quite as much. He just had not been open to it. His daughter had opened his heart and soul. He fell deeper in love with his wife.

Then, while he was on a deployment, his wife cheated on him. He forgave. Unfortunately, during another deployment, she became an addict. Then, during a later deployment, she left him. She took off with their daughter, and over a year passed before he found them. He won custody for a while, but then she won it back, probably because he was a single, active-duty Marine.

So, knowing he'd suffered these kinds of losses, and that I had only half an hour before been in the late stages of shock in front of him, I figured he was allowed to be dramatic. He really did take excellent care of me. Without his help, I probably would have died. No joke.

But no. It was too soon. I never loved and felt loved so deeply so quickly. I should have seen that, and the public spectacle a mere month or so after we decided to be a couple was a giant red flag. I caught it, too. But I let it go. I do not do that anymore.

Another man was trying to convince me we should be exclusive. Honestly, I think he just wanted me to agree to fluid bonding and unprotected sex. I wasn't open to any of that with him. He claimed to be an open book. Always said I could ask him anything. I always found his answers stilted, he was always holding back. I barely thought of him as a friend. Suddenly he goes mushy on me. He loves me. He has to be with me. He knows I'm his soul mate. Okay, Buddy. That's nice, but I do not know you. Buh-bye, Phony.

On the other hand, I had a friend-with-benefits tell me after the first time we had sex some of his deepest secrets. Some of it he told because he wanted me to sleep over, and he felt he needed to explain the source of his boundaries. I think he told the rest because of how I reacted to what he shared. He shared the first thing, and then immediately wanted to crack jokes and lighten the mood. I did not need that. I hushed him, pulled him close, and soothed him. With me, he knew, there would be peace, and no judgement. So, he vented his entire spleen.

The next day, we were in a serious car accident. There was a fatality. It was the jaywalking pedestrian or me. One of us was going to die. He made his choice and I lived. I soothed him then, too. We remained very close friends for a really long time. (Until he became a flat Earth theorist. I cannot abide that shit. I would still show up for him if he needed me. But I just cannot be around crazy. His is the craziest version of the theory I have ever heard. )

His confessions were intense, an unsual amount of vulnerability for the debut of a casual sex relationship. But he was the real deal.

Some years later, he had a stalker who tracked me down and said he was coming to kill me, and he was going to bring me to my friend and make him watch. I thought it was a hoax, called the guy a pussy, and then a pussyclaat. I asked him what kind of grown man has a beef with a dude, and then starts tracking down affiliated women. I took him seriously when he told me my address. He thought I was the main girlfriend, mother of his sons. We do kinda look alike. I did not correct him. I was afraid for the boys. He then said he wanted to keep me alive to watch him shoot Dude.

My friend showed up (with lots of rough back-up) to protect me. When the time came, he diffused the situation himself. Over the years, whenever I needed a friend, a real friend, he had my back. He was the genuine article from jump. Not like these other cats.

I like to think my experiences have taught me the difference. I guess time will tell.
 

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Teasing isn’t ridicule in the negative sense.
Teasing is showing a road for the person to laugh a bit at themselves and go on. Or referencing an in-joke.
I know that ridicule and teasing have been equally conflated, so I use the term “gentle teasing.”
Maybe with the lot of you, I’m gentile teasing, but I digress.

I tease my guy very lightly. He does have a vulnerability around his appearance. He makes his living in public view, and as he’s aged, he’s tried to hold onto matters of youth and vigor.
He likes his hair. He invests time and effort and regular cut and style. He likes it just so.
After almost two and a half years, I saw his with hair completely undone.
It was a landmark, in my eyes. He allowed me to see him at his “physical worst.”
And it was sexy as hell.
That vulnerability was a huge turn on, mentally.

I will ever so gently tease him about this vanity. I threaten to touch it in public. I will always leave him with spa hair after a shoulder massage. (To be fair, I do rearrange it back into its normal waves). I teasingly threaten to hide his combs.


Emotional vulnerability is never a point for teasing.
Such vulnerability is a gift. Maybe not one given at the right time, or for the right reason, as AE illustrated, but it is, nevertheless, a scrap of identity they choose to share.

Sometimes, it’s a tool or weapon, and then it’s never sexy. Manipulation is the antithesis of sexy.
We likely have known, or at least known of, men who have their “public vulnerability,” that one event they use as a get out of jail free card. An ex cheated. A parent was abusive. Some usually singular but occasionally stacked repetition of the original injury that is used for sympathy and to justify bad behaviour.

The manipulative flag I see most is the dead bedroom one. After that, cheating. But, dude, if multiple people cheated on you, some introspection is in order. that’s general dude, not specific.
Most people would sympathize with the one cheated on. But what might he have been doing? Accusing before they did? Cheating himself?
That part is never in the details of the Vulnerable Place Card.

I have nearly loved difficult men.
Men who weren’t able to get answers that bothered them so about women leaving. Men too unaware they were the common denominator.
I usually can identify in a couple months why.

To sum, emotional vulnerability can lead to deepening attraction, as it implies trust. (Why does the husband and father not trust the women he lives with? Does he feel they won’t love him if he’s real and honest? Does he think them so weak he must stay on his white horse, tilting at windmills?)
It signals a deepening of connection, a willingness to share the less than perfect parts of their lives.
And it’s best reciprocal.

I have mentioned my daughter, the one who didn’t survive to breathe her first breath. I held silence about her for 30 years, until I told this partner. I still don’t know why.
I trusted he wouldn’t judge my feelings around her. And they are complicated.
And it is something only he knew. I never told my husband, and we were together 14 years, raising my son (he was a fabulous step dad), and losing one of our own very early. About a week after suspicion.

sometimes, vulnerability lacks reason.