Brexit

[185248]

Don't know why...but this song popped straight into my head...........

 

[Drifterwood]

There are an awful lot of under 50s who are staunch brexit supporters. You obviously missed the Chanel 4 special where they loaded the audience with 'the young', only for remoaner in chief Jon Snow to look decidedly embarrassed when the majority were in favour of brexit.

The myth of the young favoring remain and the old favoring brexit is frankly embarrassing ageist propaganda on the part of remoaners. Even if it was actually a truth that every old person and every young person favored either side as suggested. It would only be because the 'old' had experienced 43 years of the EU and with that experience came the wisdom that they had quite enough of it.

You're living in Daily Mail/Express fantasy land.

Consult the ONS.

 

[HorsemanUK]

The others to be blamed for this fiasco of having to leave are the Pensioner Bigots - well that was according to a local Councillor who sent an email to a friend in council - without evidence.
Currently the entire UK is fed up with the prevarication and back peddling going on to get a leave deal AT ANY COST - which includes the dreadful idea of remaining in the Customs Union.
What can you read into " A no deal is better than a bad deal" that suddenly becomes "any deal" other than total capitulation to the EU that to realize the elected leaders have sold us down the river..
And the EU are the ones who will, and are, crow as once again they are the ones in charge of the fate of the British Nation and the dreams of 17.4 million voters. Once again the EU has us dangling on a string, supposition and lies. comingh from Brussles and we, eager for any crumbs will, via our Prime Minister agree to whatever they offer. End of May, no chance of a deal, end of the year with strings, ah, there's the rub, what strings?
Its the EU that is now in charge of whether the UK leaves or not, our politicians of all parties have given in to enjoying personal feuds rather than think about what the country needs. France, Spain and Belgium (two countries the allies liberated) against any form of extension - not because its not warranted but to show other countries that leaving the EU is not easy - therefore decisions not based on continuing a useful relationship but on the political necessity of holding the rest of the EU glued together.

It certainly should have been a simple and straightforward process of leaving with no deal once Theresa the appeaser's deal was voted down the first time. May should of had the proverbial balls to say ok, no deal it is then if you don't like the deal we've negotiated.

Unfortunately May has remainer ulterior motives to frustrate the process as much as possible to seek a deal at any cost, which is bad for the UK. As Peter Bone pointed out in the House, May had declared we'd leave on the 29th March 2019 108 times, applying for further extensions is a betrayal of the British people and 'history will judge you at this moment' - it certainly will, as a duplicitous cad and quite possibly the worst prime minister in British political history.

A 'no deal' WTO terms scenario is actually very good for the UK and bad for the EU. The EU fear a no deal for a variety of reasons, primarily because it would call their bluff and once outside the EU, they'd come crawling on hands and knees for a cosy 'realtionship' with the UK.

The time of propping up the EU is over, Trump is going to smash the EU into submission with his tariffs, if the EU try to fight a trade war with the US, there is only one winner there and that's not the EU. We need to be outside the EU yesterday not tomorrow or the next day or June or October or 2020 or 2050 etc... The whole thing is about to collapse and the eurocrats know it. Trump is ready to offer a very beneficial trade deal to the UK as soon as we leave the EU, so is China and Japan. Where are the EUs other friends, except for themselves and their outdated trade bloc? Oh they havnt got any.

 

[Freddie53]

There is one subject that has not been discussed that I am aware.

That is, who stands to gain financially if the UK bails out of the EU with a hard Brexit.

There will be major losses of value if there is a hard Brexit. Who is it who is sitting there waiting for the the fall so they can gobble up real estate etc for a song. A significant amount of the wealth of the UK could be transferred overnight. Pension funds, mutual funds, and real estate can change hands overnight. However, the sellers may not get close to what they are selling is worth.

Bankruptcy sales have had items sold for less than 10 % of their value. A hard Brexit could cause at a minimum shortage of funds requiring a sale of capital. At worse this transfer of wealth could be almost a gift rather than a sale.

Clearly somebody is going to buy up real estate and stocks that are going to be sold at deflated prices because the present owners of the land and/or stock will need the money and will need some one to buy the stuff from them.

The very rich have been causing the economy to rise and fall in such a way that they, the very rich can gobble up the possessions of everyone else. At least this is how it is done in the US.

 

[michael_3165]

It certainly should have been a simple and straightforward process of leaving with no deal once Theresa the appeaser's deal was voted down the first time. May should of had the proverbial balls to say ok, no deal it is then if you don't like the deal we've negotiated.

Unfortunately May has remainer ulterior motives to frustrate the process as much as possible to seek a deal at any cost, which is bad for the UK. As Peter Bone pointed out in the House, May had declared we'd leave on the 29th March 2019 108 times, applying for further extensions is a betrayal of the British people and 'history will judge you at this moment' - it certainly will, as a duplicitous cad and quite possibly the worst prime minister in British political history.

A 'no deal' WTO terms scenario is actually very good for the UK and bad for the EU. The EU fear a no deal for a variety of reasons, primarily because it would call their bluff and once outside the EU, they'd come crawling on hands and knees for a cosy 'realtionship' with the UK.

The time of propping up the EU is over, Trump is going to smash the EU into submission with his tariffs, if the EU try to fight a trade war with the US, there is only one winner there and that's not the EU. We need to be outside the EU yesterday not tomorrow or the next day or June or October or 2020 or 2050 etc... The whole thing is about to collapse and the eurocrats know it. Trump is ready to offer a very beneficial trade deal to the UK as soon as we leave the EU, so is China and Japan. Where are the EUs other friends, except for themselves and their outdated trade bloc? Oh they havnt got any.

As a leaver turned remainer the problem I have is that there is no deal or position that is better than membership.

Any other trade deal with other nations will come with conditions, they won't just give us a nice deal without agreements on citizen access to the UK. In terms of the 'sovereignty' criers they forget we will have to accept the WTOs rules. Any tariffs on products going out will damage businesses options in exporting.

What is the key reason that you wanted to leave the EU?

 

[chrisrobin]

There is one subject that has not been discussed that I am aware.

That is, who stands to gain financially if the UK bails out of the EU with a hard Brexit.

There will be major losses of value if there is a hard Brexit. Who is it who is sitting there waiting for the the fall so they can gobble up real estate etc for a song. A significant amount of the wealth of the UK could be transferred overnight. Pension funds, mutual funds, and real estate can change hands overnight. However, the sellers may not get close to what they are selling is worth.

Bankruptcy sales have had items sold for less than 10 % of their value. A hard Brexit could cause at a minimum shortage of funds requiring a sale of capital. At worse this transfer of wealth could be almost a gift rather than a sale.

Clearly somebody is going to buy up real estate and stocks that are going to be sold at deflated prices because the present owners of the land and/or stock will need the money and will need some one to buy the stuff from them.

The very rich have been causing the economy to rise and fall in such a way that they, the very rich can gobble up the possessions of everyone else. At least this is how it is done in the US.

The one place there will be real estate going is in Brussels when 1 twenty eighth of the EU parliament building are vacated by the UK. That's 4%.
But basically your reply shows little knowledge of how money, property and businesses work and is the sort of reply/answer, prediction that would com e from a remainer.
A hard brexit would have harmed the EU big time and pushed Germany in to a recession, but thanks to having a traitor at the helm the UK has capitulated and is giving the EU more money for notching in return.
For once I agree with that self interested sleaze ball Macron and he should have had the balls to insist that the UK leave this Friday, but now, caving in yet again to an old lady in return fro them not revealing his secrets..

 

[554279]

We colonials also have problems much like yours. Could we offer you a "Donald" perhaps?

Sorry I am just fucking with you.

 

[chrisrobin]

We colonials also have problems much like yours. Could we offer you a "Donald" perhaps?

Sorry I am just fucking with you.

I have to say I look at him and think could it get any worse - and it does - but this time its across the pond to the east.

 

[dandelion]

There is no reliable source data at all that support the remain leaning myth that the baby boom and pre war generation support brexit while later generations support remain.

For which generations support brexit now, see the age breakdown from any respectable polling company. For a comparison of the generations, especially comparing how people voted by age group in this referendum and last, see analysis done comparing the two.cant give you a link but i have readit and its out there. basically the people who were most eurosceptic in the first referendum were then young and are now pensioners and still are the most eurosceptic. They are actually a golden generation who benefitted from post war improvements in society, jumping wages, better conditions, index linked salaries, government asset giveaways and laeaping house prices,whereas they had been able to buy cheaply when young. the crossover point is now around age 50

And then of course, leave promised a form of brexit which cannot be deliverd. the government cannot deliver what was promised, no matter how hard it tries, so essentially the result is void because it is undeliverable.

Oh, and leave broke the law taking Russian money, because the Russians wanted to trash the UK economy.

For every youth that pipes up they favour remain another will say rubbish I'm 'young' and favour brexit.

No. all the polling gives youth strongly remainers.For example https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/zrgautmsk5/PV_190315_Results_w.pdf from March.
18-24 age group right to leave 12%, wrong to leave 70%
25-49 right to leave 32%, wrong to leave 54%
50-64 right to leave 50%, wrong to leave 43%
65+ right to leave 61%, wrong to leave 35%

Peddling remanist propaganda might make remoaners happy but it doesn't change the fact the democratic vote voted to leave.

You know full well only 1/3 the nation voted to leave. because pensioners are dying off, already the result would have changed to a remain majority simply because of new voters replaceing the old deceased, without anyone changing their view. but people have also been changing their view to remain.

 

[dandelion]

There is one subject that has not been discussed that I am aware.That is, who stands to gain financially if the UK bails out of the EU with a hard Brexit.

I see you were concerned with who might gain from forced bankruptcies in the UK, which is a good question.

However, my answer was 'ireland'. If the Uk leaves hard Brexit, or frankly even leaves at all, the Uk financial industry is going to unravel and relocated to the EU. 10% of Uk bank assets have already moved to Ireland.

The very rich have been causing the economy to rise and fall in such a way that they, the very rich can gobble up the possessions of everyone else. At least this is how it is done in the US.

This is inded what tends to happen. However, I think it more likely the instigator of Brexit was Russia, as part of its campaign to get revenge on the Uk for trade sanctions we imposed on them, and indeed which we encouraged others to impose. The cost of Brexit will already be £1trillion and it might not ever happen. Thats an awful lot of revenge.

 

[Freddie53]

... ... ...

However, I think it more likely the instigator of Brexit was Russia, as part of its campaign to get revenge on the Uk for trade sanctions we imposed on them, and indeed which we encouraged others to impose. The cost of Brexit will already be £1trillion and it might not ever happen. Thats an awful lot of revenge.

Yes it is. Putin was head of the KGB or whatever the right letters are.

Russia may be ahead of the US and the EU in cyberspace type war. It is very sobering to read how the US and the UK have allowed Russia to unravel both nations.

Both the US and the UK have spent billions of dollars and pounds to keep totalitarian governments at bay.

Low and behold, it is us who are being beat and being beat inside our own nations. This is a national emergency for both the US and the UK.

Trump has paralyzed the US government. In the last two weeks, the number of hard core Trump people are being put in positions of power in the government has been alarming. Trump is trying to consolidate power.

Trump fired the Homeland Security lady because she was balking at following Trump's orders on the Mexican border. Trump is threatening to totally close the Mexico/US border. His order is to make conditions so much amore deplorable at the border than they are in Central America so people there will not try to come to the US. Trump's actions at the border do not now and will not in the future meet the minimum UN standards for refugees.

The Mueller Report is damning to Trump, but Barr is going to run interference and we may never see the report.

Here goes:

We don't want to name people who are not being indicted because it is wrong to destroy innocent people's lives.

Trump can't be indicted while he is the present President of the US or so says the Attorney General appointed by Trump.

Trump has done several things that if it had been anyone else they would have been indicted.

Therefore, all comments about Trump wrongdoing must be redacted because it would not be fair to publish information about someone who doesn't rise to the level to be indicted. As in: Not fair to Trump to reveal all the ways that Trump broke the law.

Those therefore reasoning often leave much to be desired.

Can and will Germany and France rise to take on Putin if the UK and the US totally crumble and become irrelevant to the world as it is now and no longer are able to lead the free world to do anything except continue to decline?

Will the new world order center around Russia and China?

Will the people of the US and the UK wake up in time to avoid total calamity of their nations?

Let's not forget how fast the USSR crumbled in just 24 hours. Could the US and/or the UK totally crumble within 24 hours. (Of course there has to be a background of several years, but to those who casually read the news it can appear that a nation totally collapsed in a day.)

 

[dandelion]

Brexit is currently breaking apart the UK. N. Ireland will go, nd this will further encourage Scotland, which has a clear option to become an indepndent member of the EU, which would give it far more power. Emglish leavers would be happy to see them go.

The knock on of Brexit is Britain becoming poorer and Uk defence forces shrinking once again bcause of budget cuts. Those two new aircraft carriers may yet get mothballed before they even get equipped properly with aircraft. They were commissioned by the last labour government, when the economy was doing a whole lot better under labour. The last 8 years under conservatives have frankly been economically disastrous.

 

[chrisrobin]

Yes it is. Putin was head of the KGB or whatever the right letters are.

Russia may be ahead of the US and the EU in cyberspace type war. It is very sobering to read how the US and the UK have allowed Russia to unravel both nations.

Both the US and the UK have spent billions of dollars and pounds to keep totalitarian governments at bay.

Low and behold, it is us who are being beat and being beat inside our own nations. This is a national emergency for both the US and the UK.

Trump has paralyzed the US government. In the last two weeks, the number of hard core Trump people are being put in positions of power in the government has been alarming. Trump is trying to consolidate power.

Trump fired the Homeland Security lady because she was balking at following Trump's orders on the Mexican border. Trump is threatening to totally close the Mexico/US border. His order is to make conditions so much amore deplorable at the border than they are in Central America so people there will not try to come to the US. Trump's actions at the border do not now and will not in the future meet the minimum UN standards for refugees.

The Mueller Report is damning to Trump, but Barr is going to run interference and we may never see the report.

Here goes:

We don't want to name people who are not being indicted because it is wrong to destroy innocent people's lives.

Trump can't be indicted while he is the present President of the US or so says the Attorney General appointed by Trump.

Trump has done several things that if it had been anyone else they would have been indicted.

Therefore, all comments about Trump wrongdoing must be redacted because it would not be fair to publish information about someone who doesn't rise to the level to be indicted. As in: Not fair to Trump to reveal all the ways that Trump broke the law.

Those therefore reasoning often leave much to be desired.

Can and will Germany and France rise to take on Putin if the UK and the US totally crumble and become irrelevant to the world as it is now and no longer are able to lead the free world to do anything except continue to decline?

Will the new world order center around Russia and China?

Will the people of the US and the UK wake up in time to avoid total calamity of their nations?

Let's not forget how fast the USSR crumbled in just 24 hours. Could the US and/or the UK totally crumble within 24 hours. (Of course there has to be a background of several years, but to those who casually read the news it can appear that a nation totally collapsed in a day.)

Your rant fails to even mention a bigger silent threat - China.
However Trump loves dictators, love Kim, loves Putin and hates those who strand for democracy.
Trump claims not to have heard of Wikileaks - short memory there mate - what about the "big story coming out in a day or two£" quote? And Trump for all his pretense of being a man who loves law and order as a way of keeping stability now wants to bend the law to his way, fire judges, get rid of layers and worst if all wont revel his Tax Returns.
So
WHAT HAS HE GOT TO HIDE THERE?
The rest of his Bigotry is plain for any thinking person to see - ignore the red neck bible belt and stump supporters who are blinded by the Game Show Host performance and con fused about fiction and reality.

 

[englad]

On a lighter note:

Pro-Brexit protesters block Aldi ‘because it’s German’ | Metro News

On a darker note:

Britain already £66,000,000,000 poorer because of Brexit | Metro News

 

[dandelion]

On a darker note:

Britain already £66,000,000,000 poorer because of Brexit | Metro News

Thats only counting lost growth.

There is also the £70bn odd the bank of england spent propping up the economy after the referendum.

There is the 20% fall in the pound since talk of Brexit began. The Uk is officially valued at about £10 trillion, which means that if you wanted to buy the whole of the Uk, it would now cost £2 trillion less. Thats why UK shares have kept their value, because foreigners have been buying up bargains.

The real loss so far is more like £1 trillion. Gobsmacking.

 

[chrisrobin]

On a lighter note:

Pro-Brexit protesters block Aldi ‘because it’s German’ | Metro News

On a darker note:

Britain already £66,000,000,000 poorer because of Brexit | Metro News

Dare I even use a Trumpism and declare the above , or some of the above as being fake news.
We all know that Merkel wants the UK to at least have a soft exit as her economy is hovering on the brink of meltdown.
We all know that according the French statistics the French would lose £1.2 billion in trade in wine and dairy goods alone.
We all kn ow that Spain and Portugal would lose out heavily if the UK relied on seasonal products rather than the year round, things grown in plastic tunnels and called salad from those twp counties.
And is Europe really on e for all, I don't think so, Spain is divided, France in arms with Italy, France and Germany signed a togetherness pact, Italy and some other countries have also formed group, Hungary not allowed to rule itself, Belgium a country of two nations and Southern Ireland that would not only suffer dire consequences but is also in line to have its relaxed company incitements slapped down - by Brussels. Sitting on the highest pinnacle of all Junker the worlds worst secret drunk, even Barnier had to defend him though not very convincingly.
No wonder the UK wants to get out, no wonder the UK wants to be free of sniping (its quite capable of doing that to itself) and posturing by petty leaders trying to be big in their countries eyes but only revealing the huge cracks in an doomed exercise as petty difference highlight that there is not overall unity - oh sorry, yes there is but only as long as you (E£U) bribe!
No wonder there are those who spin lies and fake news rather than tell the truth - of yes, that's another Trump trick, get the lies out first then its in the mind and more difficult to get the truth.

 

[englad]

Dare I even use a Trumpism and declare the above , or some of the above as being fake news.
We all know that Merkel wants the UK to at least have a soft exit as her economy is hovering on the brink of meltdown.
We all know that according the French statistics the French would lose £1.2 billion in trade in wine and dairy goods alone.
We all kn ow that Spain and Portugal would lose out heavily if the UK relied on seasonal products rather than the year round, things grown in plastic tunnels and called salad from those twp counties.
And is Europe really on e for all, I don't think so, Spain is divided, France in arms with Italy, France and Germany signed a togetherness pact, Italy and some other countries have also formed group, Hungary not allowed to rule itself, Belgium a country of two nations and Southern Ireland that would not only suffer dire consequences but is also in line to have its relaxed company incitements slapped down - by Brussels. Sitting on the highest pinnacle of all Junker the worlds worst secret drunk, even Barnier had to defend him though not very convincingly.
No wonder the UK wants to get out, no wonder the UK wants to be free of sniping (its quite capable of doing that to itself) and posturing by petty leaders trying to be big in their countries eyes but only revealing the huge cracks in an doomed exercise as petty difference highlight that there is not overall unity - oh sorry, yes there is but only as long as you (E£U) bribe!
No wonder there are those who spin lies and fake news rather than tell the truth - of yes, that's another Trump trick, get the lies out first then its in the mind and more difficult to get the truth.

There's nothing more ironic than an anti-trump brexiteer. Trump supporters and brexiteers are two sides of the same coin. Both were successful in their campaigns through lies, xenophobia, Cambridge Analytica's use of social media, stock brokers bankrolling them and Russia's role in both. And both saw a spike in hate crimes rise afterwards:

Trump on EU: 'Brexit is a good thing'

Emails reveal Arron Banks’ links to Steve Bannon in quest for campaign cash

New Evidence Emerges of Steve Bannon and Cambridge Analytica’s Role in Brexit


The rest of your post, was an unimaginative new spin of "we buy German cars and Italian prosecco" so it's gonna hurt them really badly if we don't get a great deal. Nope, the UK will be far worse hit than any of the others.

 

[554279]

Brexit was the US wake-up call that was missed. Had the tea leaves been read Trump would not have been underestimated by the Democrats.

When I seen Brexit, I pretty much called Trump as moving from a possible to a probable.

 

[chrisrobin]

There's nothing more ironic than an anti-trump brexiteer. Trump supporters and brexiteers are two sides of the same coin. Both were successful in their campaigns through lies, xenophobia, Cambridge Analytica's use of social media, stock brokers bankrolling them and Russia's role in both. And both saw a spike in hate crimes rise afterwards:

Trump on EU: 'Brexit is a good thing'

Emails reveal Arron Banks’ links to Steve Bannon in quest for campaign cash

New Evidence Emerges of Steve Bannon and Cambridge Analytica’s Role in Brexit


The rest of your post, was an unimaginative new spin of "we buy German cars and Italian prosecco" so it's gonna hurt them really badly if we don't get a great deal. Nope, the UK will be far worse hit than any of the others.

Well mate, time will tell, and nope, not a follower of Trump and didn't claim to be - just quoted his tactics.
As one so dedicated to the EU can you explain why there have to be two parliaments - other than as a sop to keep France on side? Just one example of the waste of money in buying favors!

 

[englad]

Well mate, time will tell, and nope, not a follower of Trump and didn't claim to be - just quoted his tactics.

Didn't say you were a Trump supporter, I just said that there were so many similarities and overlaps between the Trump and leave campaigns that it was ironic you'd support one and not the other. And you brought up Trump, you left an open goal out on that one.

As one so dedicated to the EU can you explain why there have to be two parliaments - other than as a sop to keep France on side? Just one example of the waste of money in buying favors!

It's not anything to do with being a sop to France. Strasbourg was chosen as a symbol of Franco-German peace after two devastating world wars, as it's a German speaking region in France. Brussels was chosen as it's mainly French speaking within a Flemish speaking region. There should only be one seat. There's far dodgier sources on your side though:

Revealed: the dirty secrets of the DUP’s ‘dark money’ Brexit donor

The ruling class that drove Brexit

Some key parts from the last link:

"The week before the referendum, I arrived back in Edinburgh (where I live) to find two Leave campaigners outside the train station. After interviewing them briefly, and then objecting to their complaints about refugees, I spotted something odd. The placards they were holding were funded by the Democratic Unionist Party – a Northern Irish Loyalist party (as in, loyal to the British crown). Why was a party in Northern Ireland funding propaganda in Scotland?

On my walk home, the answer struck me. Northern Ireland was the only part of the UK where political donations aren’t public: a provision that the main parties had managed to smuggle into law during the peace process, in theory as a way to protect donors from reprisals. Someone was using this loophole to flood cash into the referendum campaign."

"How Banks’s millions were spent is, largely, a mystery. Under the referendum rules, Leave.EU could spend only £700,000 in the last ten weeks of the campaign, but spending before that period isn’t restricted and doesn’t have to be declared. When I compared the declared donations to Banks’s various groups and the amounts they said they spent in that limited period, there was a gap of £11m.

We don’t know how that was spent. However, the most likely destination of the missing millions is online adverts. And we can guess at the kind of message they promoted from the materials that the Leave.EU campaign promoted in what some call ‘meatspace’. The poster, depicting a line of Syrian refugees with the words ‘Breaking Point’, was launched by Nigel Farage the same day that the Labour MP Jo Cox was murdered by a man shouting “Britain First!” and “Traitor!”"


"During the referendum, the ideas – often straight lies – promoted in these adverts took hold in the minds of many voters; particularly effective was the fiction that Turkey is on the verge of joining the EU. This social media campaign didn’t exist in a vacuum, of course – it acted in concert with the oligarch-owned tabloid press.

Later that year, Islamophobia would again emerge as a key part of Cambridge Analytica’s strategy when it was hired to run Donald Trump’s campaign for the White House. As the academic Emma Briant, who interviewed key figures in the company, wrote: ‘Using [Cambridge Analytica’s] media strategy, Trump’s false racist and Islamophobic comments, resentment and fear were deployed where they would be most effective – mobilising swing state audiences, using voters’ personal data to monitor them, and using psychological profiling to manipulate their emotional responses en masse.’"