Brexit

[spaj8987]

I'm not sure.

In the last parliament we had the absurdity of the Commons voting against everything Brexit related. The Commons blocked absolutely any possible solution. Then the Commons sabotaged the negotiation of the government and utterly humiliated the UK. The Commons actually went over the head of the Queen and the Prime Minister to work with Brussels in sabotaging Brexit. And with this circus, nothing else got done. We have a legislation backlog in every area.

Now we have a government able to take decisions. It is better than the mess we have all seen.

Well again. I'm not sure either about all that because i am in fact an american. I highly doubt that's entirely accurate but that would leave someone from the uk proving it isn't. So i guess time will tell.

 

[spaj8987]

We're British! People were getting slightly miffed at certain negative changes that were thrust into their lives by remote bureaucrats that no-one can name.
They certainly weren't as full of vitriol as those elites with financial interests connected to the EU who see democracy as a nuisance, the media celebrities that support them and all the gullible fools who believe that being controlled by some unaccountable politburo in a different country is a great idea.

Maybe not word for word since your language was decidedly english based with this one but everything you've just said i've heard republicans/conservatives say about democrats/liberals and independents in america.

The anger in america was so bad that the slogan..make america great again...was created. Hearkening back to a time in which traditionally targeted groups had zero influence in american politics.

So again. I don't know all that much about politics in the uk but how much do i need to know when people from different countries aren't all that different?

 

[Jason]

So again. I don't know all that much about politics in the uk but how much do i need to know when people from different countries aren't all that different?

USA does not have proximity with extremism. Since 1930s all the big European continental nations have had extremist governments. In the UK we have escaped that but:
* Sinn Fein, the political wing of terrorists IRA, is in (joint) government in Northern Ireland and is topping the polls in Ireland. How would USA feel if terrorists had real power in a US state and were looking likely to be elected in Canada?
* Our opposition is Marxist, terrorist supporting and anti-Semitic. Whatever the result of the next US election, it is impossible for USA to elect a Corbyn. The Jewish population of USA are not applying for Israeli naturalisation.

 

[spaj8987]

USA does not have proximity with extremism. Since 1930s all the big European continental nations have had extremist governments. In the UK we have escaped that but:
* Sinn Fein, the political wing of terrorists IRA, is in (joint) government in Northern Ireland and is topping the polls in Ireland. How would USA feel if terrorists had real power in a US state and were looking likely to be elected in Canada?
* Our opposition is Marxist, terrorist supporting and anti-Semitic. Whatever the result of the next US election, it is impossible for USA to elect a Corbyn. The Jewish population of USA are not applying for Israeli naturalisation.

I can see where you're going with this but proximity to countries with extremists in them does not equal to those countries being extremists. That in a round about way would be like canada and mexico saying they should shut their borders after the oklamhoma city bombing. As far as i can tell they didn't and decided against it because doing so would make the situation worse instead of better.

To get a bit more precise. It would be like americans wanting to sue an entire country because terrorist originated from said country.

(How would USA feel if terrorists had real power in a US state and were looking likely to be elected in Canada?)

To be perfectly honest with you most of america would be against it. While republicans and conservatives would be for it. I know what you're thinking. I've lost my mind. Until you consider all the republican and conservative policy that has been able to be inacted after 9/11 in america. As far as i can tell 9/11 was one the best things to happen to republicans and conservatives in america. For a good long while now they've been able to push through all kinds of legislation based simply on the fear of terrorism. Translating that fear into a muslim ban. So i'm pretty sure they'd love it.

(Whatever the result of the next US election, it is impossible for USA to elect a Corbyn. The Jewish population of USA are not applying for Israeli naturalisation.)

Those are some very general statements. And i'll admit my knowledge of them is lacking. So i can't speak too much on them but when it comes to america's abilities. Well our electoral systems literally allowed a guy in who said...

[ I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters. ]

..and he was right. He could. So when it comes to asking the possibilities of america and americans..it might be a good idea to keep that in mind. As in a presidential candidate literally talked about killing a fellow american before running and won anyway. Basically these are strange and sometimes horrifying times in america. Where damned near anything can in fact happen.

 

[dandelion]

@dandelion, Brexit has happened.

No mate, nothing has happened at all. We are in a years 'transition' where everything remains the same. After that...well.. old floppy has promised is will be a paradise of expanding, powerful, Britain, with no foreign immigrants, no chlorinated chicken, no nasty pollution, no climate change, trade on fantastic special terms for the UK, industry flocking here, everything wonderful. We might be closing on the crunch point where he has to deliver...and he isnt going to be able to. Interesting times indeed. He has 4 3/4 years left to persuade people it is wonderful, however bad it gets.

We're over the legal line. Any effort to look at polls or interpret the election result are just not relevant. It has happened.

No idea what you mean? Are you saying that while Briain was in the EU it was not possible to organise support to leave? Most people want to stay in the EU. It wouldnt be difficult, even now, to do so. Bottom line is the EU would be delighted for a repentent UK to rejoin. But the conservatives are probably aiming still for BINO. We are technically out, just obey all the rules. The more stridently he claims this isnt going to happen -just like May did - the more he is simply trying to spin the oncoming national disaster. The only way to stop an economic disaster is to stay in the EU market system despite leaving the governing system. Vassal state England. (the others, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, alreading being vassal states of England, so I guess its conservative's perverted idea of constitutional reform to make England a vassal as well))

 

[dandelion]

In the last parliament we had the absurdity of the Commons voting against everything Brexit related.

What you mean is that conservative MPs voted against everything Brexit related and so stopped Brexit happening.

Then the Commons sabotaged the negotiation of the government and utterly humiliated the UK.

Conservative MPs could not agree what to do. If they had done so, technical brexit could have happened a year or maybe two ago. Just remember, they were the government. They had a majority in the commons, all they had to do was make a plan amongst themselves.

Unless you are suggesting they did have a plan, which was to stop Brexit? Which is precisely what they did!

Conservative MPs only came together to pass the withdrawal legislation after they lost half their voter support to UKIP/brexit party. They saw that either they pretend to support brexit, or be pushed from power.

 

[Jason]

@spaj8987 I do think there are differences between North America, and UK & Europe.

There is so much that can be said about Trump that is critical. But the anguish that many in USA feel with Trump as president is nothing to the fear instilled by many politicians on this side of the pond.

Look at the latest poll for the election coming up in Ireland:

Sinn Fein 25
Fianna Fail 23
Fine Gael 20
Independents 20
Green 8
Labour 4

In Ireland one person in four is saying that they will vote for Sinn Fein, for long the political wing of terrorist murderers IRA. I know there's an argument that they have renounced terrorism, and that a new generation of Sinn Fein politicians have a "clean skin", but it is pretty shocking that people are voting for a party this extreme. Of course they get lots of votes in Northern Ireland also, and power sharing means they are actually in government in NI.

Pity Ireland! Probably other parties will do almost anything to keep SF out of power, so we may be looking at some sort of coalition or confidence & supply between FF and FG (and perhaps others). If this happens then Sinn Fein become the leader of the opposition. Bluntly we are now looking at a party that has blood on its hands with real power in both NI and Ireland.

The UK has had a close encounter with Corbynism. Jews in the UK have felt fear. Labour is being investigated for anti-Semitism. Labour is advocating Marxism, and believes Venezuela is a beacon of excellence save that the Marxism was too timid.

USA does not have anything comparable. Neither Trump not any Democratic candidate are going to support terrorism, abuse Jews or embrace Marxism. UK (and nations of Europe) are in a different position.

 

[spaj8987]

What you mean is that conservative MPs voted against everything Brexit related and so stopped Brexit happening.

Conservative MPs could not agree what to do. If they had done so, technical brexit could have happened a year or maybe two ago. Just remember, they were the government. They had a majority in the commons, all they had to do was make a plan amongst themselves.

Unless you are suggesting they did have a plan, which was to stop Brexit? Which is precisely what they did!

Conservative MPs only came together to pass the withdrawal legislation after they lost half their voter support to UKIP/brexit party. They saw that either they pretend to support brexit, or be pushed from power.

That's kind of how i guessed it went down. The exact same thing happened in america. Conservatives here waged a long campaign of no not like that even sometimes against their own bills because democrats crossed the isle and helped them out. While blocking, denying, defunding and generally being difficult for no logical reason.

@spaj8987 I do think there are differences between North America, and UK & Europe.

There is so much that can be said about Trump that is critical. But the anguish that many in USA feel with Trump as president is nothing to the fear instilled by many politicians on this side of the pond.

Look at the latest poll for the election coming up in Ireland:

Sinn Fein 25
Fianna Fail 23
Fine Gael 20
Independents 20
Green 8
Labour 4

In Ireland one person in four is saying that they will vote for Sinn Fein, for long the political wing of terrorist murderers IRA. I know there's an argument that they have renounced terrorism, and that a new generation of Sinn Fein politicians have a "clean skin", but it is pretty shocking that people are voting for a party this extreme. Of course they get lots of votes in Northern Ireland also, and power sharing means they are actually in government in NI.

Pity Ireland! Probably other parties will do almost anything to keep SF out of power, so we may be looking at some sort of coalition or confidence & supply between FF and FG (and perhaps others). If this happens then Sinn Fein become the leader of the opposition. Bluntly we are now looking at a party that has blood on its hands with real power in both NI and Ireland.

The UK has had a close encounter with Corbynism. Jews in the UK have felt fear. Labour is being investigated for anti-Semitism. Labour is advocating Marxism, and believes Venezuela is a beacon of excellence save that the Marxism was too timid.

USA does not have anything comparable. Neither Trump not any Democratic candidate are going to support terrorism, abuse Jews or embrace Marxism. UK (and nations of Europe) are in a different position.

No. Republicans and conservatives in america already have supported terrorist.

Trump: 'Both sides' to blame for Charlottesville - CNNPolitics

[ President Donald Trump, in a staggering, impromptu news conference in New York on Tuesday, blamed the violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, over the weekend on both sides of the conflict -- equating the white supremacists on one side with the "alt-left" on the other side -- after his top White House aides spent days trying to clean up after Trump's initial vague response to the violence.]

For clarification. A woman was murdered during this event. Heather heyer. And she was murdered while protesting AGAINST...nazis. And then there's his shoot a person comment. This...

Donald Trump: Ban all Muslim travel to U.S. - CNNPolitics

[ Republican presidential front-runner Donald Trump called Monday for barring all Muslims from entering the United States.
"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on," a campaign press release said. ]

And then there's this...

Donald Trump on terrorists: 'Take out their families' - CNNPolitics

[ "The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families, when you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don't kid yourself. When they say they don't care about their lives, you have to take out their families," Trump said. ]

Pretty sure that not only would doing so be considered a war crime. To go after innocent human beings just because they're related to terrorists. But that doing so supports terrorism. The whole reason terrorists groups are able to recruit to begin with is because of the fear for the lives of their family members. Considering civilian casulities is extremely high when it comes to the middle east from every country that goes there without intel i'm sure this would create even more terrorists.

So in a round about way, trump in saying and doing all of those things is supporting terrorism directly. And when it comes to charlottesville he supported terrorism directly. In the form of literal nazis. And then there's...

Hate on the Rise After Trump’s Election

[ Since Donald Trump won the Presidential election, there has been a dramatic uptick in incidents of racist and xenophobic harassment across the country. The Southern Poverty Law Center has reported that there were four hundred and thirty-seven incidents of intimidation between the election, on November 8th, and November 14th, targeting blacks and other people of color, Muslims, immigrants, the L.G.B.T. community, and women. One woman in Colorado told the S.P.L.C. that her twelve-year-old daughter was approached by a boy who said, “Now that Trump is President, I’m going to shoot you and all the blacks I can find.” At a school in Washington State, students chanted “build a wall” in a cafeteria. In Texas, someone saw graffiti at work: “no more illegals 1-20-17,” a reference to Inauguration Day. ]

So yeah about that whole....

(Neither Trump not any Democratic candidate are going to support terrorism, abuse Jews or embrace Marxism.)

 

[dandelion]

@spaj8987In Ireland one person in four is saying that they will vote for Sinn Fein, for long the political wing of terrorist murderers IRA.

Dont you mean the freedom fighters who liberated most of Ireland from oppression by English invaders after several hundred years? Force was necesary to oppose that invasion in force.

You do know that the British government twice in 100 years engaged in massive invasions of the European continent? Lets not fill the next 100 pages of this thread with lists of the times Britain has used force against other nations. And when I say Britain, lets narrow that down and say England, because Britain IS run by England. Not to claim Ireland, Wales or Scotland didnt also use force, just that more recently Scotland and Wales have been wholly controlled by England.

Neither Trump not any Democratic candidate are going to support terrorism,

Didnt the US government create Al-Qaeda? And so many other terrorist organisations. As an instrument of extending US power abroad? Britain did so too. Its a common trick to encourage terrorists in an enemy country. Get them to fight themselves.

You seem obsessed with a tiny part of the picture. The track record of the EU is utterly benign compared to that of England.

 

[Thikn2velvet1]

Unfortunately I cannot copy it, but the Wall Street Journal suggests Great Britain’s economy could grow by a minimum of 2.7% going forward.

The EU is an economic dead zone. IMO, it will likely fall apart within 20 years.

 

[spaj8987]

Unfortunately I cannot copy it, but the Wall Street Journal suggests Great Britain’s economy could grow by a minimum of 2.7% going forward.

The EU is an economic dead zone. IMO, it will likely fall apart within 20 years.

What is that based off of? As far as i can tell people have said the uk was doing all the work in previous years. So if that's based on the time the uk was said to have been running the eu. Then wouldn't that failure be largely the uk's fault? Meaning there's a much higher chance for the eu to succeed past the uk because now the uk is completely isolated?

Could be wrong. Just asking.

 

[Industrialsize]

The people voting against free movement of people are surprised they no longer move as freely.

 

[seventiesdemon]

The people voting against free movement of people are surprised they no longer move as freely.
View attachment 12543901

Bloxit?

 

[dandelion]

the Wall Street Journal suggests Great Britain’s economy could grow by a minimum of 2.7% going forward.

So thats it? After Brexit the Uk economy might grow a mimimum of 2.7%, and then no more growth ever?

 

[Thikn2velvet1]

So thats it? After Brexit the Uk economy might grow a mimimum of 2.7%, and then no more growth ever?

“Going forward” means year after year.

 

[chrisrobin]

If it wasn't so sad it would be amusing.
Just what is it the EU didn't understand as some of the reasons the UK wanted and needed to leave the EU?
Oh yes, the UK wanted to be free of influence from Brussels, free to make its own laws, rules and regulations - in other words be its own boss.
So what is it that from the outset that Brussels wants - the UK to remain aligned to EU regulations for all time.
So hopefully when it looks like a no deal brexit with the EU in danger of not getting its divorce settlement and its fiscal budget looking decidedly shaky wait for countries to break ranks force the mandarins to find a deal will the whole ethos of the EU look as firm and steadfast?
The EU is dependent on Germany, and currently the Euro is under pressure because Germany is seemingly faltering, thus showing the weakness in the entire United States of Europe adventure. Macron is giving in to protesters on his reforms and needs to be able to have a big voice to deflect attention from his failings and regardless of more reasonable voices within the EU, as he tries to become the leader as Merkel fades his efforts to become the new Napoleon he will strive for a difficult negotiation - but the rich like him wont feel the brunt, its the middle classes and workers who will suffer because of his ambition.
Oh yes, one of the main reasons to get out of the EU was to be able to control the destiny of the British People.

 

[spaj8987]

The people voting against free movement of people are surprised they no longer move as freely.
View attachment 12543901

People who voted for the leopards eating people's faces party surprised by the leopards eating people's face party eating people's faces.

 

[dandelion]

So what is it that from the outset that Brussels wants - the UK to remain aligned to EU regulations for all time.

You do understand what a trade deal means? It means the two sides agree to align their rules.

It always means this. A trade deal with the US means the UK will align its rules to those dictated by the US.

So hopefully when it looks like a no deal brexit with the EU in danger of not getting its divorce settlement and its fiscal budget looking decidedly shaky wait for countries to break ranks

Er, why?

Are you saying the UK is offering to keep paying into the EU every year forever? I didnt hear floppy Johnson saying that? As things stand, the Uk makes a divorce payment (maybe by installments over years), and then stops paying. That means the payments stop. No deal and the Uk refusing to pay would just mean payments stop slightly sooner. And the EU would sue for the money anyway.

The Uk is only paying a small amount of money. It makes no difference in the long run.

Oh yes, one of the main reasons to get out of the EU was to be able to control the destiny of the British People.

As I said, to make a trade deal with anyone, you have to accept their rules. That ought to be obvious to everyone. Its a deal. You have to make concessions to the other side, and have to agree you will not change those rules at any time without the other side agreeing to it. Ask your boss if he minds you not going to work any more, but still being paid. If he says no and you do it anyway, think you will still be paid?

 

[dandelion]

The EU set out its stall of terms years ago. Implicitly decades ago. In all probability, WTO most favoured nation rules probably mean the EU cannot give the UK a better deal than it already has with others. Johnson and co are asking for something which is quite impossible, simply so thaey can turn around when it doesnt happen and calim it is the fault of the EU. But it isnt. I'm sure the US would be the first to complain if the EU gave the UK a better deal than the US gets.

Fact is: EU membership is membership of the biggest trade deal in the world. You can leave if you want, but that is certain to mean the Uk gets a worse trade deal with the EU, which affects 40% of our trade directly, and through knock on loss of EU trade deals with other nations around the world will impacr maybe another 55%?

Leaving the EU is guaranteed to make the UK poorer. Did no one tell you that?

 

[dandelion]

MI5 refusing to pass information to the new home secretary Priti Patel. Helen Miller on Twitter