Brexit

dandelion

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Nissan announces that it will close its Sunderland plant unless there is a trade deal with the EU.

It has already reduced production from three shifts a day to two shifts. All those car workers voting for brexit, voted themselves out of a job.
 
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dandelion

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The UK argued that the TA had to come first as there were too many uncertainties in a WA if there was no certainty if a TA would even happen
By Uk law, the Uk cannot negotiate a trade deal with anyone until it leaves the EU. So that was impossible. Similarly mirror law exists on the continent. And until the Uks new relationship to the EU was clear, then no other country is interested in settling a deal with the Uk anyway. Untill our EU relationship is setled, others do not know what we have to offer, because our relationship to the EU is hugely important to the UK.

However....the WA had the potential to be as all encompassing as the two sides wanted it to be. The EU was willing to write a WA which would have precisely defined our new trade relationship. The UK refused to do this. The UK could not decided what sort of relationship it wanted. Or, it kept saying it wants all the good bits without the bits the UK government doesnt like. I dont regard those as bad bits either, because every restriction comes with a reciprocal right. But government could not even decide what it wanted and did not want, so it was unable to agree terms. We have had years of the Uk conservative government unable to decide, and we still do.Under three different prime ministers who couldnt decide!

We've had problems over the NI border with the EU saying that unless there is a TA there is a huge problem, and in effect arguing that Brexit cannot happen until there is a TA, which of course they would never agree.
Under the irish peace agreement the irish were guaranteed a unified Ireland. This has functioned pretty much like a federal state, with two autonomous regions the north and south, but an open border between them and few cross border trade restictions. The EU agreed to act as guarantor this situation would continue forever, unless the irish decided to change it. And that is exactly what the EU have done. They have required the Irish border stays open. Which means there has to be a border beteeen the island of Ireland and the UK, or the UK has to stay in essential parts of the EU system. The Uk government chose to have a sea border, though it refused to admit this was what it was doing. It has now admitted there must be a sea border, so in effect it has said it will grant independence to N. Ireland so as to get out of its treaty obligations.

The WA was mostly negotiated by Theresa May, and it is awful.
No. it was negotiated by Johnson. Ok, the work was done by May, but at the end of the process fundamentally the Uk had to choose which option it was going for, and that was where the problems began. May failed to get a Uk decision. Johnson made that choice.

There is so much complexity with the NI backstop. It locks the UK into a huge divorce settlement
Oh dear no. The divorce payments are simply what we owe the EU because of past commitments to fund projects which continue. Much of it will have already been paid because it is ongoing contributions to the EU and the conservatives have delayed leaving as long as possible. Thats years of extra money we have already paid. If there had been no agreement whatever, the EU would still have demanded the money and used international treaty law to claim what it was owed. The WA simply sets out agreed arrangement for payments.

Without a TA there is little point in a WA.
The WA was simply the agreed leaving terms. Tying up loose ends. Could have essentially defined very precisely the TA, but the Uk couldnt make up its mind, so it had to be left out.

It now seems unlikely that the UK will get a TA.
We will certainly get agreed rules for future trade. They will be as comprehensive as the UK is willing to commit to. Every trade agreement ever made imposes obligations in return for advantages. Leavers have tied themselves in knots because fundamentally the benefits of EU membership have always been far greater than the disadvantages. The EU is itself a vast trade deal. So what the UK now has to choose is which advantages for the Uk it is willing to give up so as to satisfy leavers. Which is why it has been an impossible decision and endlessly postponed. Do we cut off an arm, or a leg, or maybe both? Will leavers even be happy if we cut off both arms and both legs? Do leavers even care if the Uk dies as a result?

We need to dump the WA.
The Uk could show the world it is wiling to simply break any international agreement if feels like. I wonder how people we are negotiating with now would feel about that?

Right now the UK needs a bilateral agreement with France to keep trade flowing Dover-Calais
The EU negotiates on behalf of France and all members. Hows that going to happen? Another fantasy!

..and to address the migrants crossing the English Channel in tiny boats. This is the real prize for the UK.
Prize? Come off it! As an EU member there was an agreement in place for members to manage migrants where they entered the EU. That is dust because we left. Now there is nothing to prevent the French giving these people boats and so solving their own problem.
 

yrosen

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Any closure of EU car plants in the UK is another great opportunity to revive the UK's now extinct car industry.

btw Renault-Nissan are closing and "restructuring" many other facilities and announced a large cut of many of their models.
 
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dandelion

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Any closure of EU car plants in the UK is another great opportunity to revive the UK's now extinct car industry.
Before we joined the EU our car industry was dying fast. No market. As members it has revived. Guess what happens if we leave?
 

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Before we joined the EU our car industry was dying fast. No market. As members it has revived. Guess what happens if we leave?

well it all depends on design and there's still 12 uk carmakers selling mostly for the local market
if they design a mini city-electric landrover or a family aston-martin, with good designs and battery life,
it will sell in the millions
 

dandelion

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well it all depends on design and there's still 12 uk carmakers selling mostly for the local market
Mostly? So what happens to their profitability when they are selling only to the Uk market? I see currently 8/10 cars made in the Uk are exported. 50% of those were sold to the EU. 85% of the cars we import come from the EU.


if they design a mini city-electric landrover or a family aston-martin, with good designs and battery life,
it will sell in the millions
Millions of aston martins? They sold 1450 cars in the UK in 2018. Jaguar land rover sold 114,000 cars of all sorts in the Uk in 2019. So all in all, no they would not. But it also might pay them better to make the cars elsewhere and import them to the UK.
 

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Once again the EU shows its true face.
4 days of talks, partly to agree the budget for the coming years but principally to decide on a rescue package to EU countries suffering from the Coronavirus Pandemic.
So much for unity.
So many personal faces shown on what should have been a decision made in the spirit of what the EU stands for.
Instead of which France and Germany stood by for the biggest relief package going. France was supporting Germany and Germany needs the money for relief to go to Greece, Italy etc because otherwise German manufacturing will be hit.
Once again the two largest groups got together to bludgeon their plans through.
But
Meanwhile the "frugals" were loathe to gift large tranches of money without any guarantee of how the money would be spent and so wanted it in used for loans - with string attached.
Unity, one for all?
No wonder the UK wants out, and shortly to be followed by Poland and Hungary if the present signs are anything to go by.
i
 

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Industrialsize

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Once again the EU shows its true face.
4 days of talks, partly to agree the budget for the coming years but principally to decide on a rescue package to EU countries suffering from the Coronavirus Pandemic.
So much for unity.
So many personal faces shown on what should have been a decision made in the spirit of what the EU stands for.
Instead of which France and Germany stood by for the biggest relief package going. France was supporting Germany and Germany needs the money for relief to go to Greece, Italy etc because otherwise German manufacturing will be hit.
Once again the two largest groups got together to bludgeon their plans through.
But
Meanwhile the "frugals" were loathe to gift large tranches of money without any guarantee of how the money would be spent and so wanted it in used for loans - with string attached.
Unity, one for all?
No wonder the UK wants out, and shortly to be followed by Poland and Hungary if the present signs are anything to go by.
i
Poland and Hungary: Bastions of Freedom and Democracy.
 
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g0nz0

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I'm pretty sure that the Europeans have moved on from Brexit.

It's just this country and our immediate neighbours in thrall to this particular badly written and performed ongoing drama

Yeah, and a lot of that's just because we watch so much of your TV.

For the average punter in mainland Europe, Brexit was never a thing.

No more of interest to them than the average British punter is in what the full detailed list of duties and obligations of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster are...
 

g0nz0

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Don't knock our royalty - remember you had a queen on the "throne" for a while.
As a non license paying sponger don't complain about what you steal and get for free.

We mostly don't get UK TV for free - we pay Sky... whether they are handing the dosh over for licenses is someone elses business...

BBC is beamed down on top of us without us asking for it so that's everywhere.

As for your royalty, Queenie is alright, but there is a bit of a look of fishing from too small a genetic pool off some of the rest of them...

But the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is a political position, currently held by that dumbass Michael Gove - unless you consider him royalty.

Actually I think you just proved my point...
 

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We mostly don't get UK TV for free - we pay Sky... whether they are handing the dosh over for licenses is someone elses business...

BBC is beamed down on top of us without us asking for it so that's everywhere.

As for your royalty, Queenie is alright, but there is a bit of a look of fishing from too small a genetic pool off some of the rest of them...

But the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is a political position, currently held by that dumbass Michael Gove - unless you consider him royalty.

Actually I think you just proved my point...

Dumbass is a relative term. Gove has many flaws, but in intellectual terms I don't see how he's any worse than, er, Raab, Patel, Hancock, Shapps etc. In fact he's probably miles ahead of them in that sense. Which probably sense more about them than he.
 
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DiamondJoe

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Don't knock our royalty - remember you had a queen on the "throne" for a while.
As a non license paying sponger...

"Sponger"?

You wanna talk about over-large families living in over large houses in London on state benefits then look no further than the Queen, her family and extended hangers on.

We owe them nothing.
 
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chrisrobin

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"Sponger"?

You wanna talk about over-large families living in over large houses in London on state benefits then look no further than the Queen, her family and extended hangers on.

We owe them nothing.
You do seem to forget the amount of cash they generate as a tourist attraction, employment and actually being a focal point of admiration for many (excluding the rank socialists who would like to abolish the monarchy). If you really want to point and demolish then your efforts would be better aimed at the self serving house of lords and ladies.
 

DiamondJoe

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You do seem to forget the amount of cash they generate as a tourist attraction, employment and actually being a focal point of admiration for many (excluding the rank socialists who would like to abolish the monarchy). If you really want to point and demolish then your efforts would be better aimed at the self serving house of lords and ladies.
Rubbish! If the royal family weren't there, people would still visit the palaces and castles. You think because the French chopped off Louis XVII's head that tourists don't visit France or Versailles? The monarchy is costing us more than ever, friend...

The very existence of the monarch is an affront to democracy - we are subjects, not citizens.

The only thing they really have going for them is that no-one can agree what should be in the monarch's place if we ever had a republic.

And I stand by my comments - over large family living in over large houses at public expense. And we have the temerity to bang on about "lazy council scunners"!

What's the problem with the House of Lords then?

:)
 

chrisrobin

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Rubbish! If the royal family weren't there, people would still visit the palaces and castles. You think because the French chopped off Louis XVII's head that tourists don't visit France or Versailles? The monarchy is costing us more than ever, friend...

The very existence of the monarch is an affront to democracy - we are subjects, not citizens.

The only thing they really have going for them is that no-one can agree what should be in the monarch's place if we ever had a republic.

And I stand by my comments - over large family living in over large houses at public expense. And we have the temerity to bang on about "lazy council scunners"!

What's the problem with the House of Lords then?

:)
AS I THOUGHT
so keen to espouse democratic values and unthought through theories and climb on populist band wagons you've no idea what's wrong with the unelected house of lords.
Still, if you want real, democracy I suggest you go to Russia, they have lots of palaces there but apart from Putin no royal family.