Brexit

[dandelion]

only got half a post there about the times article. They reckon the Uk government could face a bill from upset trading partners massively grater than the EU is asking for. because we have broken our agreements with them by leaving the EU.

the link is https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/foreign-investors-could-sue-uk-for-billions-over-brexit-g6jfssvnv

though there is a paywall.

Wonder if its an important issue, a bill massively bigger than the Eu demands just because we leave? probably ongoing too for decades.

 

[southeastone]

only got half a post there about the times article. They reckon the Uk government could face a bill from upset trading partners massively grater than the EU is asking for. because we have broken our agreements with them by leaving the EU.

the link is https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/foreign-investors-could-sue-uk-for-billions-over-brexit-g6jfssvnv

though there is a paywall.

Wonder if its an important issue, a bill massively bigger than the Eu demands just because we leave? probably ongoing too for decades.

It's a crock of shite,in the article the view by the meeting of lawyers trying to drum up business under 40% of those present thought it was "worth a punt" for a company to sue.

Relevant comment from the article which seems to cover this nonsense;

"I think that any agreement made after the Lisbon Treaty was signed in 2007 would implicitly accept that any member of the EU had the right to unilaterally withdraw. It was therefore a perfectly foreseeable eventuality codifed in particular law and could not be the basis of any subsequent claim unless it is specifically covered.

Those signed before? Covered by the Vienna Convention on Treaties since 1969 I imagine, which in either interpretation would provide for withdrawal from Treaties either unilaterally by provision or in agreement with other signatories, so again it is a perfectly foreseeable eventuality.

 

[798686]

Update, seen the hat. Arguably its subtle enough to just be a mistake, any old ring of yellow stars on a blue background, but the palace does not make mistakes like that about protocol. Thye must have a check list including wearing the wrong colours to important occasions.

So heres the queen, delivering a speech all about leaving the EU. If she wore the crown, she couldn't wear the hat. So she took off the crown she is supposed to wear to open parliament and instead wears the symbol of the european union.

I supose she could instead have made a speech saying she thinks what her government plans is bollocks, and just left it at that.

The other alternative might be that Theresa may asked her to wear the hat as part of her campaign to reverse Brexit without seeming to do so.

Tbh, I sense the Queen is above such petty shenanigans.

If she wanted to Remain - she would make it patently obvious. However, all the sounds that have emerged so far indicate just the opposite.

 

[dandelion]

If she wanted to Remain - she would make it patently obvious.

no, she would not.

but matters have now changed. the government has no majority. She might in fact feel it is now her duty to show leadership. very lightly.

just saw a rumor posted that the DUP are talking to labour about a possible coalition.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[798686]

no, she would not.

but matters have now changed. the government has no majority. She might in fact feel it is now her duty to show leadership. very lightly.

just saw a rumor posted that the DUP are talking to labour about a possible coalition.

The Queen has never been one for crass stunts.

Deliberately turning up in an EU hat to make a trite point is not her style.

Believe it if it makes you feel better - and interestingly, it might be a fortuitous blunder if it leads Europeans to believe the Monarch is sympathetic to them...

 

[dandelion]

Ian heslop the other day observed that Winston Churchill opposed immigration controls.

Interesting to think that Queen Elizabeth actually knew and worked with Churchill as PM himself. Understandable that she would agree with him.

 

[rbkwp]

well i think its a good start anyway
people first none of this migrant refugee rubbish

Brexit: UK offers EU a citizen-rights deal

British Prime Minister Theresa May has offered European Union leaders a deal on allowing citizens to remain in their respective jurisdictions after Brexit.

Senior European politicians welcomed the proposal but warned there are still many related issues to resolve.

 

[dandelion]

The Queen has never been one for crass stunts. Deliberately turning up in an EU hat to make a trite point is not her style..

Indeed no. But she is in a unique position to know how Britain is governed and what is really important for the greater good. She might feel that remaining a member of the EU is so important to the Uk that she has to do something, whatever she can get away with.

 

[dandelion]

And the latest yougov survey asks people what they prefer if its a choice between restricting free movement of EU citizens and getting full access to EU markets. The answer is 58% to 42% say we should allow free movement. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...hrngg4b5a8/TimesResults_170622_Trackers_W.pdf

This is up from 53/47% when last asked at the start of June.

I think Brexit mania is over. The fightback campaign has taken hold and it is already clear that reality is winning. The 'respect the result' fanatics are becoming increasingly strident because we all know it is ridiculous in a democracy to forbid people to change their mind. Yet their only reason why Brexit must go through is because there was one narrow vote to do it, when people had no idea of the implications.

Politicians now have the awful problem of U turning on Brexit. Especially difficult for the conservatives because many of their remain supporters have departed for other parties while their support has been boosted by rabid leavers who dont car how much economic harm they cause everyone else.

 

[southeastone]

. when people had no idea of the implications.

.

But people had no idea of the implications when we joined hence after seeing where it went people now want to leave

 

[dandelion]

Britain has become rich as a member of the EU. So rich it is now fooling itself it no longer needs the EU.

What we are likely to see now is item after item the EU will restate its position exactly as it always has, and the promises by leavers to get out their magic deal tree will be shown to have been pure nonsense. Leave have tried to push through hard Brexit so that it is irreversible, before people wake up to the reality. It isnt going so well for that plan.

Even the queen is telling us its a bad idea.

 

[rbkwp]

interestiong
GET ON WITH IT!!
-he/she said
the ordionary Brits views
hard/soft, sounds like a u know what
get that feeling .. sigh, free movement

BBC and others, propoganda but WTF

Brexit: What's Next? (BBC Documentary 26.06.2017)

 

[Jason]

There's a growing view that hard/soft are meaningless terms.

The UK is going for outside the European Economic Area, outside the Customs Union, and outside the European Court of Justice. Being in either EEA or CU ( as oft Brexit) requires being in ECJ. Being part of the ECJ system just isn't Brexit. We're fast seeing that Brexit means what was called hard Brexit.

 

[dandelion]

There's a growing view that hard/soft are meaningless terms.

The UK is going for outside the European Economic Area, outside the Customs Union, and outside the European Court of Justice.

Thats hard Brexit jason, easy.

Being in either EEA or CU ( as soft Brexit) requires being in ECJ. Being part of the ECJ system just isn't Brexit.

see, thats where you are getting into trouble with your definitions. That IS leaving the EU. People voted to leave the EU, nothing more. (though actually latest poll puts it at 45% remain 44% leave, so they have already changed their minds) Soft Brexit means leaving the EU but remaining part of the institutions.


The labour party campaigned on a ticket of ensuring there is not harm to the economy. At minimum that means soft Brexit, but it may require no Brexit. Labour supporters seem entirely happy for that to be the case.

And conservatives are jumping ship.

Oh, and even the leave campaigners such as yourself are calling for the creation of new international bodies which would have control over the UK in just the same way as the EU does now. It is not possible to have any kind of trade deal without such a guarantor organisation having power over the members of that agreement. The entire argument that we must leave the EU to regains control is a lie, because what is really meant is to take this power from the old EU and give it to some new organisation. Its just make work for lawyers.

Everyone, leave and remain, agree the UK must continue to be subject to international arbiters. Leave are not and never have promised to restore sovereignty.

 

[Jason]

Thats hard Brexit jason, easy.

Maybe.

The contrast of course is with the sort of Brexit envisaged by DUP. Perhaps we should call this rock hard.

 

[rbkwp]

There's a growing view that the UK doesent know what the F' its doing
(like the migrant refugee issue the UK is a part of)
dont think anyone has a clue, ANYONE, as to how to get out of it
and the Eus possibly going to make it so difficult. that will make it an even harder BREXIT

why i think now before they even start,they will eventually QUIT the entire thing??
citing all (sorry few) there internal problems will be a perfect excuse, not reason?.

 

[SamSpain]

It's a complete dog's dinner and could have been avoided so easily if Cameron had actually had any balls.

 

[dandelion]

The contrast of course is with the sort of Brexit envisaged by DUP. Perhaps we should call this rock hard.

Yes indeed. they do seem pledged to a very soft Brexit, at least for N. ireland, but because they are unionists they want to drag England along too. A number of people hav suggested their aims are fundamentally incompatible with brexit at all. Which just makes life all the more interesting.

There's a growing view that the UK doesent know what the F' its doing

Precisely. it doesnt. Which is why i keep posting that May wanted to lose the election. Well she didnt win a majority which would have made doin anything easier, and she didnt lose control so she could pass the buck.

 

[rbkwp]

go along with that dands
dont believe it will save May either
not after her performonce of late,well several years i since note
she will be out as soon as they want to kick her out
ay least Cam took the initiative and instantly'jumped' as they say here
opportunity huh

Precisely. it doesnt. Which is why i keep posting that May wanted to lose the election. Well she didnt win a majority

 

[Jason]

Yes indeed. they do seem pledged to a very soft Brexit, at least for N. ireland, but because they are unionists they want to drag England along too. A number of people have suggested their aims are fundamentally incompatible with brexit at all. Which just makes life all the more interesting.

The media have been muddled on the DUP's approach to Brexit. However:

1) The DUP want the hardest possible Brexit: outside EEA, Customs Union, ECJ, ECHR, with implacable opposition to paying any divorce settlement and additionally with a set of demands for the EU to meet. It goes way beyond anything I could dream of. They want Brexit as a religious goal, as an assertion of the Westminster Confession of the reformed protestant churches. The European institutions are seen as an instrument of the devil. I haven't seen any of the British papers or media pick up on this. It's as if a religious objective to politics is so far outside the norms of UK politics that the British media just cannot comprehend this. In practical terms the DUP probably want no deal.

2) The DUP want an open border with Ireland. Within the Northern Ireland Assembly certainly DUP, UUP and Sinn Fein (perhaps others - I don't know) are committed to an open border. Policing and border security is devolved to the Assembly. There is no possibility whatsoever of Northern Ireland enforcing an economic or customs border. (They will enforce security, but this is increasingly something that is done throughout NI and indeed all UK rather than specifically on the border. Movement of people is in effect enforced between NI and the rest of the UK.) Republic of Ireland has a constitutional requirement to maintain an open border and would need a referendum to change this, and it just isn't happening. What DUP are setting up is a situation where the border will be open. In effect it is throwing down the gauntlet to the EU: what are you going to do about it?

The world (and indeed most in the UK) struggles with the relationship between UK and Ireland. The deal proposed giving EU nationals status in the UK in effect excludes Irish nationals who will have much more anyway. UK and Ireland are closer than UK and any EU nation. Very many organisations on the island of Ireland cross the border and belong to both. There is an identity of a whole island of Ireland. The dream is some form of closer relationship between UK and Ireland, what is technically called a Commonwealth (distinct from the British Commonwealth). This has just come a bit closer.