Brexit

[dandelion]

Seems that in light of Davis' statements that he does not consider the recent agreement binding, and I dare says also considering his government colleague Gove's similar comments, the EU has said we shall not move on to discuss trade arrangements after all. Instead they want a formal legally binding agrement to the effect of this informal one right now.

So the EU wants the UK signed up and committed to remaining in the EU markets before discussing anything else. Though, of course, if the UK does sign up to continuing its relation with the EU exactly as now, there isnt really anything else to discuss. The trading terms will have been settled. The agreement may put her name to last week settles what the UK's future relationship to the EU and the rest of the world will be. Exactly as now regarding trade, but giving up all our control over the EU. No nonsense talk of Canada +++, Canada+++ IS EU membership.

 

[Drifterwood]

The UK banks are saying more money is leaving for fear of Labour than for Brexit, worrying times for the Uk economy

It's a double whammy and the irony is that the brexit effect is a major contributor to the likelihood of a Corbyn government.

 

[dandelion]

You misunderstand the direction of the EU, Macron, Shulz and co want and will get "more Europe", countries who don't agree will be sidestepped, we leave now or march to the beat of their drum.

No, you dont understand. If we are a member and veto changes, they dont march anywhere. If they want to do some marching, we demand concessions for letting them get on with it while we stay as we are in a 2 tier EU. This is real power Southeastone, and you just want to throw it away.


What we plan to do now is move to a second tier but not one we choose, one they choose for us, and then can change in the future any way they like. You Brexiteers are destroying Uk sovereignty.

 

[798686]

No, you dont understand. If we are a member and veto changes, they dont march anywhere. If they want to do some marching, we demand concessions for letting them get on with it while we stay as we are in a 2 tier EU. This is real power Southeastone, and you just want to throw it away.


What we plan to do now is move to a second tier but not one we choose, one they choose for us, and then can change in the future any way they like. You Brexiteers are destroying Uk sovereignty.

What a load of old bollocks.

Juncker is aiming to remove vetos, and Schulz is calling for nations who use their veto to be chucked out.

The nation state is nigh on redundant (which is something you agree with, I believe) for those who remain in the EU.

Fortunately, the British disagree.

 

[Drifterwood]

.

The nation state is nigh on redundant (which is something you agree with, I believe) for those who remain in the EU.

Fortunately, the British disagree.

Not by much.

And the age demographic gives that opinion a limited life if it ever really existed.

BTW can you tell me the difference between say a French nation and a European nation? A Welsh nation and a British one? Barbarism and Pax Romana?

 

[dandelion]

What a load of old bollocks.

Juncker is aiming to remove vetos, and Schulz is calling for nations who use their veto to be chucked out.

Neither of which is possible for them to do without the consent of the UK just so long as it remains a member.

I understand you dont want to accept this, but while we are a member we have a guaranteed position. The Uk joined because it needed to control its main market. It still needs to control its main market. The brexit idiots are obsessed with destroying the UK's power to control its destiny.

The nation state is nigh on redundant (which is something you agree with, I believe) for those who remain in the EU. Fortunately, the British disagree.

The British think 46%/41% we should be a member of the EU. Do not misquote statistics. You can say there was a referendum with a narrow result to leave, but you cannot say the brits want to leave. They do not. It is an abuse of democracy to force them to leave when they want to stay. Its tyrany.

 

[798686]

Neither of which is possible for them to do without the consent of the UK just so long as it remains a member.

I understand you dont want to accept this, but while we are a member we have a guaranteed position. The Uk joined because it needed to control its main market. It still needs to control its main market. The brexit idiots are obsessed with destroying the UK's power to control its destiny.

The British think 46%/41% we should be a member of the EU. Do not misquote statistics. You can say there was a referendum with a narrow result to leave, but you cannot say the brits want to leave. They do not. It is an abuse of democracy to force them to leave when they want to stay. Its tyrany.

I didn't - I said the British prefer the nation state.

 

[798686]

Not by much.

And the age demographic gives that opinion a limited life if it ever really existed.

BTW can you tell me the difference between say a French nation and a European nation? A Welsh nation and a British one? Barbarism and Pax Romana?

Are you accidentally equating the Welsh nation with Barbarism?

 

[chrisrobin]

Corbyn's Christmas card is apparently forum the party manifesto
I wonder if its the bit that says
"And I will rule in the name of Momentum, John McDonald and Diane Abbott, for the good of the people, where all people are equal except those people who are more equal, for now and forever more, Amen."

 

[Jason]

Not by much.

And the age demographic gives that opinion a limited life if it ever really existed.

BTW can you tell me the difference between say a French nation and a European nation? A Welsh nation and a British one? Barbarism and Pax Romana?

There are answers.

There is the concept of cultural nationalism, which is presumably to the fore of the idea of the Welsh nation. There is the concept of the sovereign state, which de facto has the curious definition of an entity which is able to issue bonds (all sorts of modifications of course). A French nation has both cultural nationalism and this definition of a sovereign state.

There are also concepts of legal jurisdictions. The EU is certainly eroding this fast. There are concepts around independence of defence, basically of sovereign armed forces.

Right now France is a cultural nation, but its monetary independence is severely compromised (the euro) with some restrictions on its fiscal independence. There are substantial restrictions on its legal independence. The clearest aspect of French independence is that it is a nuclear power. Is France a nation? Probably just about. Is Belgium a nation? I'm not sure it is.

 

[southeastone]

Corbyn's Christmas card is apparently forum the party manifesto
I wonder if its the bit that says
"And I will rule in the name of Momentum, John McDonald and Diane Abbott, for the good of the people, where all people are equal except those people who are more equal, for now and forever more, Amen."

Maybe they will send a copy of momentums fiddled election accounts out with the Christmas cards to show who trousered all the members subs and donations..........

 

[Jason]

I assume you are referring to the probe into whether Momentum broke election spending rules, reported for example here. If the issue is purely an administrative issue and just a pound or two over (which is what Momentum is saying) then it's a technical breach and I don't think anyone should get too fussed. However if it is a substantial over-spend it is a very different sort of issue.

 

[dandelion]

UKIP today refusing to cooperate with investigations into their referendum expenses, being taken to court to force them to produce information.

Oh, and parliament savaged May.

 

[southeastone]

I assume you are referring to the probe into whether Momentum broke election spending rules, reported for example here. If the issue is purely an administrative issue and just a pound or two over (which is what Momentum is saying) then it's a technical breach and I don't think anyone should get too fussed. However if it is a substantial over-spend it is a very different sort of issue.

It seems several hundred thousand was recorded in subs and donations and the filed accounts show some £50k remaining as assets so either it got spent or stolen, someone needs to look in the ashtray and try to find some petrol receipts because this one looks to have legs. I understand that HMRC will be looking in as well as momentum is set up as a company with directors and as they need to be a separate entity from Labour to evade spending rules they are in fact a service provider for Labour and as such are subject to VAT alledgedly to the tune of some £80k which is unpaid.

 

[southeastone]

UKIP today refusing to cooperate with investigations into their referendum expenses, being taken to court to force them to produce information.

They could share a lawyer with momentum maybe?

 

[southeastone]

Steven Hammond sacked as party vice chair, 1 down 11 to go?

 

[Jason]

Steven Hammond sacked as party vice chair, 1 down 11 to go?

I understand what you are saying, but we don't have a strong and stable government. We have a weak and stable government. While there is room for the iron fist (as here) there is also room for the velvet glove. Some of the rebels will have to be promoted in return for a promise to behave.

 

[Jason]

It seems several hundred thousand was recorded in subs and donations and the filed accounts show some £50k remaining as assets so either it got spent or stolen, someone needs to look in the ashtray and try to find some petrol receipts because this one looks to have legs. I understand that HMRC will be looking in as well as momentum is set up as a company with directors and as they need to be a separate entity from Labour to evade spending rules they are in fact a service provider for Labour and as such are subject to VAT alledgedly to the tune of some £80k which is unpaid.

Yes, I think you are probably right.

The UK has remarkably low spending limits for political parties, and there are laws which stop parties getting round these laws by using affiliated groups. Basically the system is set up to stop a party slinging huge sums of money behind a campaign, with the idea of making campaigns about issues, not spending. The weakness with the system is that a party that spends even quite modest sums over the low legal spend can get a big advantage. If Momentum really did spend hundreds of thousands backing Labour during the election campaign (and the suggestion is that they did) then there are a host of problems:
* this would seem to be the biggest electoral over-spend the UK has ever seen. In UK terms it's a huge fraud!
* there is a view that the electoral commission will spend a couple of years looking at the matter, then decide it's all too complicated and there is no charge to answer. However this case really does look different.
* the tax issues will be investigated. I think there must be a clear decision on this one.
* the Conservatives had a fine of £70,000 over 2015 election spending issues. The fault was complex (and different from the broad-brush statements in the media) but basically this was a stonking fine in the context of the actual problem. There are questions about how much the ERC can fine, but a proportionate fine applied to this alleged Momentum overspend would run to millions.
* there are issues around liability of individuals. Our system does make candidates responsible for the spending in their constituency, right down to the smallest item. Current MPs who have benefited from this Momentum spending may be personally liable. We can but hope!

 

[185248]

Don't know if this has been tossed in anywhere. But thought the man who coined the term needs a mention...http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/oxford-english-dictionary-the-man-who-coined-brexit/

 

[Drifterwood]

1. There is the concept of cultural nationalism.

And it's horse manure.