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Broke....except:

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mensch1351, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. Mensch1351

    Mensch1351 Expert Member

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    With all the talk of just how broke we are; could someone please explain to me just where the money comes from for Federal Disaster Relief? Now that Hurricane Irene is probably going to barrel up the East Coast (and had the earthquake out East been much more devestating) --- where do the "billions" come from in promised AID? Is this just more deficit spending? Thanks!!
     
  2. Horrible

    Horrible Experimental Member

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    Good question.
     
  3. Industrialsize

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    Disaster Relief is funded by FEMA which receives it's appropriations from congress:
    $1 billion in FEMA funding approved by House

    Republicans controlling the House began advancing a $1 billion aid package on Tuesday to make sure that disaster relief accounts don't run dry after massive flooding along the Mississippi River and devastating tornadoes in Missouri and Alabama.
    The House Appropriations Committee approved the disaster aid cash along with two spending bills, one funding the Homeland Security Department and the other for veterans programs.
     
  4. justine

    justine Experimental Member

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    I think there is a machine with a print start button!
     
  5. ShannonH

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    America has been running a huge deficit since WWII. It's not necessarily a bad thing, because the US had been able to do it on account of being the strongest economy in the world with an impeccable credit rating. The recent S&P rating downgrade is because they'd lost confidence in the US's ability to pay back its debts. This is why people were fighting so hard not to raise the debt ceiling, since the US was bumping up against that limit where if they were any deeper in debt their rating would be downgraded.

    So the US once again has more credit, which they can use for disaster relief, but really don't pay too much attention to that. It's small potatoes compared to the trillions that are wasted on healthcare. Most people don't know where to find these data, and the news never reports it, but in the states the government actually spends more per capita on healthcare (medicare and medicaid) than Canada does, yet Canadians have universal healthcare. Also, there's a huge crunch coming up in social security that there is basically no plan for, and we've known about since FDR, yet everyone is just ignoring.

    Anyways, this is a really good read. It's just the wikipedia article so it's not some think tank or pundit's page, so no matter what your politics it's a good idea to be up on these numbers:
    United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Most interesting to me: one half (approx ~1.7 trillion) of the entire budget is social security + medical + debt interest. These numbers are already incredibly high, and expected to rise to the point where by 2025 (according to the Obama administration) the entire budget at current tax levels will _only_ cover social security + medical + interest. That means you'd basically have no government, and it's less than 14 years away. It could be even sooner, since the expenses are guaranteed to rise, but the economy is likely to shrink as companies move to other nations and the US tax receipts shrink.
     
  6. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff Banned

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    That's why the USA is teetering on the verge of collapse, just like it was in 2008.

    The Fed creating $4 trillion, then loaning it interest free to its preferred banking friends (i.e those who own the Fed!) who then buy secure Govt bonds @ 5% cost $200Bn in interest/yr since 2008.

    How much of a rip off is that? It's organized theft!

    If the USA stopped spending sooo much on its military, revised its medical legal compensation limits, & associated spending on lawyers, nationalised the Fed(that's the biggie by far!), & upped taxes just a little - it might be fine.

    Don't you think it's wonderful that your tax dollars, & your national debt are paying for other countries around the world to get up to a standard where they can compete against you?

    Those banking bastards have sucked the west dry, & they need to fly fly fly, & suck the life out of another economy (made safer by your aid packages).

    There are plenty of other countries that don't have massive skyscrapers & infrastructure, but thanks to all your help - in the coming decades they soon will! It's not like they have the money from thin air debt you guys have, so these developing countries will provide the next boom for the global banking scam!

    With America's colossal balance of trade deficit, it is living well beyond its means. With its colossal debt obligations, current & future, it can't afford to either.

    GET RID OF THE FED.
     
  7. Industrialsize

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    The red herring known as Foreign Aid:

    Asked to estimate how much of the federal budget goes to foreign aid the median estimate is 25 percent. Asked how much they thought would be an "appropriate" percentage the median response is 10 percent.
    In fact just 1 percent of the federal budget goes to foreign aid. Even if one only includes the discretionary part of the federal budget, foreign aid represents only 2.6 percent.



    American Public Vastly Overestimates Amount of U.S. Foreign Aid - World Public Opinion
     
  8. Horrible

    Horrible Experimental Member

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    I find your signature humorous, because with only a small piece of obamacare in place so far, the cost of insurance has risen a disproportionate amount.
     
  9. Industrialsize

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    I'm an advocate for single payer, socialized medicine. NO ONE should make a profit from my healthcare........But back to the topic at hand.
     
  10. Horrible

    Horrible Experimental Member

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    Ill quit hijacking after this, but the doctor, who spent a lot of time and money to graduate medical school, whom basically is in charge of whether you live or die, even he shouldn't profit?

    we can continue this via pm if youd like.
     
  11. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff Banned

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    LOL, That's only part of it! Exactly how much "military" expenditure is also used to remove unfriendly foreign governments, destroy old infrastructure & rebuild it to create a more amiable regime, eager to get into debt & pay interest to the banks?

    Exactly how much of this is used in indirect bribes - overinflated contracts for projects & accommodation?

    I don't even want to get into the tax breaks for "foundations" & charities which are used as 3rd party compellence, or the IMF!

    Wasn't Marcos helped to be removed because even he balked at handing over the Philippines natural reserves - in perpetuity -for the forgiveness of debt?

    Foreign Aid comes in multiple forms - but it still comes back as a multiple cost to the taxpayer - with none of the benefits, apart from for those at the top.

    Either way, if you are in debt - you shouldn't give anyone else any money! You're only making your situation worse. The government is giving away other people's money.

    If you want to - that's up to you - but wouldn't you be better concentrating on your own country's problems first before trying to save the world?
     
  12. TomCat84

    TomCat84 Expert Member

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    Of course he should profit- but you bring up another interesting point- crushing student loan debt. Perhaps we should redirect our resources towards making it easier for people to get an education?
     
  13. Horrible

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    Apparently, I lied about stopping the hijacking.

    You are correct, an education should be easier, financially, to obtain. I could not agree with you more on this.
     
  14. Klingsor

    Klingsor Worshipped Member

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    S&P did not downgrade the U.S.'s rating because we raised the debt ceiling. They downgraded it largely because we *didn't* raise the debt ceiling until practically the very last minute, thereby demonstrating (once again) the impotence of Congress in the face of our critical economic issues.

    It's precisely those who fought so hard against raising the debt ceiling who have to take the blame for the downgrade.
     
  15. ShannonH

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    It wasn't strictly that the debt ceiling wasn't raised, or that spending wasn't decreased, but that neither action was taken. You can google for S&P's official statement, but the first paragraph of the "Rationale" section spells out exactly that -- the fact that they flubbed the debt ceiling debate so badly means that cuts on entitlements (social security, medicare, medicaid) seem much less likely to come. It's not the side that you disagree with's fault that consensus wasn't reached, it's that the entire political system isn't capable of making these important decisions.

    "We lowered our long-term rating on the U.S. because we believe that the
    prolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the related
    fiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing the
    growth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching an
    agreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed and
    will remain a contentious and fitful process. We also believe that the fiscal
    consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration agreed to this week
    falls short of the amount that we believe is necessary to stabilize the
    general government debt burden by the middle of the decade." -- US Downgraded to AA+, S&P, 2011
     
  16. Klingsor

    Klingsor Worshipped Member

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    The first reason S&P cites--the instigating cause of the downgrade--is the "prolonged controversy" over the debt ceiling and its implications for future progress.

    The debt ceiling has been raised many times in our history, usually as a matter of course, with very little clamor or contention. It was just something that needed to be done, and done it was. Had it been raised in a similarly expeditious manner this time, S&P would not have downgraded--any more than Moody's or Fitch, who still gave us an AAA rating in spite of our economic issues.

    But this time around, the Tea Party contingent played a brinksmanship game, in which they gave every indication of being willing to undermine the full faith and credit of the United States by allowing our nation, for the first time, to default on its debts.

    Yes, there are underlying financial issues that need to be addressed, and sooner rather than later. And yes, eventually, if nothing gets done, all three of the major rating agencies would have to consider downgrading the U.S.'s credit rating.

    But it's disingenuous to attribute the S&P downgrade to a wide range of free-floating causes, or to assign blame equally to all sides. It is *not* sheer coincidence that S&P chose to downgrade its rating in the immediate wake of the debt ceiling fiasco. Nor is it coincidence that raising the debt ceiling only turned into such a circus after the Tea Partiers gained a foothold in Congress.
     
    #16 Klingsor, Aug 25, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  17. TomCat84

    TomCat84 Expert Member

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    I don't think you were hijacking it at all. The thread is about America being broke, and wondering how we afford disaster relief. I'm wondering when Congress is going to vote themselves a 10% pay cut.
     
  18. Horrible

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    As much as I'd like to disagree with you simply because I want to. There's nothing in your post I can disagree with.
     
  19. dandelion

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    Note the section where they worry about congress refusing to raise taxes. The debt ceiling was a technical issue which obama would ultimately have raised by executive order (or I understand he has the power to do this as a last resort, and other presidents have done so). It was not the problem. The twofold problem is any coherent plan to get out of the mess, and in particular an adamant refusal to raise taxes. A solution is not possible without raising taxes.

    I think the world view is that the US may be in trouble but it is not at the edge of the cliff yet. It would be much better if it did something now, but it is still not too late to quit bickering and accept the inevitability of tax rises. Hence the downgrade, but only by one notch. The world also still thinks US government bonds are some of the safest in the world, but that is just a choice between bad and worse.

    Re the military, obviously the US is spending a stunning amount on this. Even so, it is inadequate to pay for the level of military forces the US has been seeking to deploy. The US needs to come to terms with having a smaller military. With not having the military clout it once did. With not having the economic clout it once did. Politicians are in denial about this. It will not be solved until this denial stops. Its taken the UK 50-100 years to go through that process.

    Re health care. I read some of the debate over this. You have a medical system designed to provide the worlds very best. Not the worlds most cost effective. The only quick way I can see to resolve this is if their is a total crisis with masses of people ineligible for medical care, or masses defaulting to whatever minimal state service you now have. Out of necessity the state may then nationalise the system one way or another to cut costs. That is pretty much what happened in the UK.
     
  20. B_enzia35

    B_enzia35 Banned

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    Humorously enough, getting the government out of education will reduce the cost.
     
  21. dandelion

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    getting the government out of anything in the uk has never resulted in it being cheaper.
     
  22. sargon20

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  23. B_enzia35

    B_enzia35 Banned

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    An op-ed piece from the Washington Post and a class warfare hit piece. Nice.
     
  24. dandelion

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    Well what do you expect? No one volunteers to give up income however much they have. Of course the rich will lie and cheat to hang on to it.
     
  25. ShannonH

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    I came in to this thread upset by the incredible partisanship and bickering that's making any real reform impossible, and it's really not hard to find examples of that.

    This is not a partisan issue - it's math. The data are just the current financials, and population data assuming that people will age and their health will deteriorate.

    The most unsettling part is that this is just becoming an issue now, when it's something we've known was coming for decades.

     
  26. dandelion

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    Are you sure it is not in fact consensus not to reform which is making reform impossible?
     
  27. Hoss

    Hoss Loved Member

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    um.... we raise taxes on the low income and middle class while cutting more vital programs like food stamps and services to veterans, children and the elderly?
     
  28. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff Banned

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    Welcome to politics on LPSG!:biggrin1: It gets more like the Crips Vs the Bloods everyday!:smile:

    Unfortunately, neither the bankers who earn interest on money drawn from thin air (fiat currency) & our happy state of perpetual debt, nor the politicians they finance, nor even the people who elect them care about these things, until it's too late.

    On the student fees thread, I've just underlined how politicians use deferment of expense as a tool. Avoid paying now - & pile all the crap on future generations. That way you can do grandiose schemes that you couldn't otherwise afford.

    Voters like this - they can't see that it's going to cost 3,4,5 or 6 times more when the bill comes in - because it'll be in 20/30 years time! Hooray!

    Final salary pension schemes were a Ponzi scheme. You have to have an ever widening base of the pyramid. Add the fact that people are living longer means that the Baby Boomers are getting benefits that they haven't even contributed 40% to.

    It's always another generation's issue, because they ain't voting today! look what us suckers will be paying in interest payments alone in the years to come.

    The young will be literally working to pay off the debts of the old. That's why death duty increases are a bloody good idea right now.

    In the past Nero put a death duty rate of 100%, but he couldn't wait for them to die, so he invited rich people to kill themselves or be killed horribly.

    That's why in times of economic darkness, a new light has historically been delivered in the shape of a very bloodthirsty war, or a famine. Yikes.
     
  29. Domisoldo

    Domisoldo Sexy Member

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    Good point since total student loan debt now exceeds credit card debt in the US...

    Insane...and for what?

    While elite programs and elite schools continue to deliver high ROI for a minority of elite students (and society at large), the masses continue to learn less and less of the relevant matters that our economy demands...while paying more and more.

    Higher Education (save aforementioned elite programs) is a complete ripoff in this country.

    The huge California State system now has more "administrators" than academics...all guaranteed ruinous all-you-can-eat health benefits and pensions for themselves and their dependents, regardless of gross incompetence.

    The funny part is that while consumers rightfully bitch when they're fucked over by credit card issuers, hapless victims of the higher education system seem to cheerfully take it up the derrière.




     
  30. Domisoldo

    Domisoldo Sexy Member

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    Surely you don't mean that physicians should be made civil servants here in the US, right?

    As for the reviled Big Pharma (a large part of which based in socialist/social democrat Europe), do you actually believe that if R&D for new drugs were left to the government, it would have produced the vast array of treatments we have today? Really?
     
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