"Brr-footed and Pregnunt"The South Still Trying to Control Women

madame_zora

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You have to be fucking with me on this - the doctors REFUSED to tie your tubes? Oh how fucking rich is the irony on that... out of one side of their mouths, the politicians want to say "you may not, under any circumstances, choose what to do with your own body and get a tubal ligation;" out of the other side of their mouths, they say "you may not, under any circumstances, terminate an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy." Motherfucking idiots.

No, I'm not fucking with you at all. It wasn't even their call to make, it was the medical standards of the time. Those two comments coming out of politician's mouths reduce me to a human breeding unit. Can you see where my fury comes from? At 21, I was old enough to vote, work, marry, conceive, invest money, balance a checkbook. I had an education, but none of that qualified me to decide for myself how many children I wanted.

I was raised as an only child, and I ALWAYS knew I would have an only child. NOBODY'S getting ANY share of the attention I have for Julianna- nobody! I would definitely kill anyone, anywhere who tried to interfere with that relationship, the fetus is totally irrelevant to me.

Who really wants ME to have a baby born to me that I feel that way about? I'd hate it, neglect it, resent it, and get rid of it every chance I could I'd also hate the world, the governemnt and my fellow Americans much more than I already do if I was forced to have a child I don't want. The government could never force me to love a child I don't want. It would only EVER be an annoyance to me, and I'd hate it every day. Not a good life for a potential "precious" life, is it?

Have your OWN precious lives, like I did, and stay the FUCK out of my uterus.

Wonder what your doctor would say if you told him "you will tie my tubes, or I'll do it myself. I have scissors and a needle and thread at home. Your choice, your responsibility."Isn't that the way the fundi-cons always work?

He watched me cry, gave me a kleenex and apologised for his hands being tied. He was a good man, I blame the system, not the doctor.

I have been celibate for a very large portion of my life, at different times, for different reasons, some of them religious. I feel differently now, and feel no further obligation to appease society. I don't give a shit about other people's morals, they are free to have them, and act accordingly. What they are NOT free to do is to impose them on me.
 

Ed69

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Thats no suprise,I was refused a vasectomy at 22 years old.Lisa was unable to use hormonal birth control,so it was only a matter of time.We now have two children,they did finaly tie my wifes tubes,but only after the second birth!
 

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Right, I understand now. I'm just wondering how many of those imbecile legislators thought they had medical degrees, giving them the right to legislate medical decisions such as voluntary sterilization. Out of curiosity, were the same standards applied to vasectomy as to tubal ligation?
 

madame_zora

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Right, I understand now. I'm just wondering how many of those imbecile legislators thought they had medical degrees, giving them the right to legislate medical decisions such as voluntary sterilization. Out of curiosity, were the same standards applied to vasectomy as to tubal ligation?


According to ed69 they were. Not being a man, I have no first-hand knowledge. It was probably state-by-state, if I had to guess.

It was never about medicine, it has always been about keeping women barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. I'd kill a thousand babies to avoid that life, it's just not for me. I take every precaution I can to avoid it, but once there, I have no hesitation.

There, now I've outed myself as a baby-killing bitch. But really, who benefits from someone who doesn't want to be a parent being forced into being one? I don't believe in taking government assistance (for myself, I have no problem with other people doing it), so I'd be bringing a child into poverty, with no medical insurance. Is that a good idea? I think not.
 

Ed69

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Yes it was the same standard,because I was under age the doctor's could do nothing despite the fact I was permanently disabled at 16.
 

madame_zora

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Yes it was the same standard,because I was under age the doctor's could do nothing despite the fact I was permanently disabled at 16.


I'm very sorry to hear that. It brings me no joy at all to know that the denial of personal rights spread across the gender gap. How terribly sad.
 

Ed69

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Denial of personal rights started for me the day my mother had my foreskin ripped off.Women want control of their body's,well so do we!
 

madame_zora

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Denial of personal rights started for me the day my mother had my foreskin ripped off.Women want control of their body's,well so do we!


I can really appreciate that sentiment, plenty of the men here have expressed the same outrage. Not all, but enough that it should be more of a public awareness issue. I have to admit that before I came here, I wouldn't have thought much about it, I probably would have done whatever the doctor suggested if I had a boy, but now I would certainly advise anyone I know to think long and hard about it, and perhaps leave that for the boy to decide when he reaches the age of majority. Any body modification should be a personal choice, unless it is a medical necessity.
 

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Stop playin' man!

This is serious. There are no easy answers in this debate. No easy answers at all.

I'll never take any debate seriously that begins by gratuitously stigmatizing all the people in the region where I live. "The South" is not made up of three states. A handful of people in those three states have misguided viewpoints and the ability to introduce legislation. So what? I predict the legislation will fail. The folks introducing it don't represent me, anyway. They're just like politicians everywhere. They're trying to do whatever it takes to keep their jobs, regardless of the merits of what they're proposing.

"The South" has 80-90 million people living in it. We are not all trying to control a woman's right to choose. I agree this topic is open to debate, but I'm not going to sit here and give anybody a free pass to insult me and all the other people who oppose these fools.

There are no easy answers. But the will be NO ANSWERS AT ALL until people learn to park their prejudices at the door before they bring up a topic for discussion. :mad:
 

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I'll never take any debate seriously that begins by gratuitously stigmatizing all the people in the region where I live. "The South" is not made up of three states. A handful of people in those three states have misguided viewpoints and the ability to introduce legislation. So what? I predict the legislation will fail. The folks introducing it don't represent me, anyway. They're just like politicians everywhere. They're trying to do whatever it takes to keep their jobs, regardless of the merits of what they're proposing.

"The South" has 80-90 million people living in it. We are not all trying to control a woman's right to choose. I agree this topic is open to debate, but I'm not going to sit here and give anybody a free pass to insult me and all the other people who oppose these fools.

There are no easy answers. But the will be NO ANSWERS AT ALL until people learn to park their prejudices at the door before they bring up a topic for discussion. :mad:


Here, here! I agree with you wholeheartedly. I too abide within the South's borders. I have refrained from seriously responding to this thread because once again it upsets me greatly to read the vitriole being expressed here.
 

Ed69

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I can really appreciate that sentiment, plenty of the men here have expressed the same outrage. Not all, but enough that it should be more of a public awareness issue. I have to admit that before I came here, I wouldn't have thought much about it, I probably would have done whatever the doctor suggested if I had a boy, but now I would certainly advise anyone I know to think long and hard about it, and perhaps leave that for the boy to decide when he reaches the age of majority. Any body modification should be a personal choice, unless it is a medical necessity.

Thank you,I hope I did not come across to angry.But this does raise my hackles,how anyone can presume to modify or tell anyone what to do with their body just makes my head hurt.I can't say I'm comfortable with the idea of abortion.However my right to choose was taken away twice.So I'll be dammed if I'm gonna support anyone telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body.
 

madame_zora

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Thank you,I hope I did not come across to angry.But this does raise my hackles,how anyone can presume to modify or tell anyone what to do with their body just makes my head hurt.I can't say I'm comfortable with the idea of abortion.However my right to choose was taken away twice.So I'll be dammed if I'm gonna support anyone telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body.


Darlin', people get angry when their rights are violated, that's normal.

Naughty and Hickboy, I didn't read anything in the OP that suggested everyone in the whole of the south agrees with this legislation, just that it happened in a southern state.

While I agree that it will probably be overturned at some point (or at least I hope), it's still a very sad state of affairs to watch any state take such a serious step backward. Seems we've done enough regressing, and we're just digging ourselves a bigger and bigger hole to crawl out of. As slow as social change usually moves, this could easily be the rest of my natural life.

It's also hard to deny that most red states are in the south, or that most of this type of legislation comes from republican conservatives. Those are just facts, not insults. I'm quite sure there are plenty of southerners who are just as outraged, in fact, the news showed some very angry women from SC. The slam was at the egotism of forcing morality through legislation that would have never been possible six years ago.
 

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Darlin', people get angry when their rights are violated, that's normal.

Naughty and Hickboy, I didn't read anything in the OP that suggested everyone in the whole of the south agrees with this legislation, just that it happened in a southern state.

While I agree that it will probably be overturned at some point (or at least I hope), it's still a very sad state of affairs to watch any state take such a serious step backward. Seems we've done enough regressing, and we're just digging ourselves a bigger and bigger hole to crawl out of. As slow as social change usually moves, this could easily be the rest of my natural life.

It's also hard to deny that most red states are in the south, or that most of this type of legislation comes from republican conservatives. Those are just facts, not insults. I'm quite sure there are plenty of southerners who are just as outraged, in fact, the news showed some very angry women from SC. The slam was at the egotism of forcing morality through legislation that would have never been possible six years ago.



My comment may have sounded a bit harsh. I guess I just was taken aback by the force of anger over this topic. I can understand the outrage at someone directing how one deals with one of the most intimate experiences in her life. However, I guess I tend to also think about the child, fetus, lump, humunculus and how unfortunately because it is tied to a mother its life is precarious at best depending upon situations beyond its control. Though I am sure those here can clearly distinguish between the importance of the life of a wanted child who has been born and one who for what ever reason was aborted ,there are many misguided individuals for whom human lfe as a whole has become expendable. Whenever I hear of a young girl stuffing her new born in a toilet in order to end its life or of a very young child who was endangered because he or she was seen as inconvenient it makes me wonder. I am sure The perpertrator may wonder why this behavior is seen as a serious crime when something similar( In their eyes)if done months earlier under the right conditions would be legal and championed? Are we unwittingly contributing to the devaluing of human life as a whole? Are we sending messages to our youth that others are only valuable if the are convenient or fit into our master plan? I know I will receive major flack for this, but it bears thought...
 

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I myself would never abort a baby at any point and this has been a discussion before i have 2 kids and nearly died with both and if i got pregnant tomorrow i would never abort a baby.

I am also of the opinion that we all have to live and die with our own choices no matter these choices.

I witnessed my senior year a father pick his girl up out of the class room kicking and screaming anddrag her to a abortion clinic and abort her baby the she knew the sex of and named. Not 6 months later she got pregnant to replace the child lost forever
 

madame_zora

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My comment may have sounded a bit harsh. I guess I just was taken aback by the force of anger over this topic. I can understand the outrage at someone directing how one deals with one of the most intimate experiences in her life. However, I guess I tend to also think about the child, fetus, lump, humunculus and how unfortunately because it is tied to a mother its life is precarious at best depending upon situations beyond its control. Though I am sure those here can clearly distinguish between the importance of the life of a wanted child who has been born and one who for what ever reason was aborted ,there are many misguided individuals for whom human lfe as a whole has become expendable. Whenever I hear of a young girl stuffing her new born in a toilet in order to end its life or of a very young child who was endangered because he or she was seen as inconvenient it makes me wonder. I am sure The perpertrator may wonder why this behavior is seen as a serious crime when something similar( In their eyes)if done months earlier under the right conditions would be legal and championed? Are we unwittingly contributing to the devaluing of human life as a whole? Are we sending messages to our youth that others are only valuable if the are convenient or fit into our master plan? I know I will receive major flack for this, but it bears thought...


Naw, you won't take flack from me, I really do understand what you're saying. Still, you read what I posted about being refused having my tubes tied. Is it acceptable that I only get the options of bearing children or being celibate? I HAVE been celibate for stretches of several years, several times. I feel I have a right to expect more of my life than being a breeding cow, it disgusts me. When I got pregnant at 41, having been told for years that the excessive doses of depo-provera that I had taken for years for another medical problem had probably left me sterile, having used condoms like a nazi- how do you think that made me feel? I sure as heck didn't feel "blessed by the Lord". I felt cursed with a demon.

My physical reaction was to hurt myself. I just wanted to carve it out of me with a kitchen knife, and I would have done ANYTHING POSSIBLE to get rid of it, legal or not, safe or not. I simply can't explain this feeling to someone who has not been pregnant with a child they don't want. I felt invaded at the core of my being. I would have gone completely mad, literally, had I been forced to carry that child. It was "it or me", I chose me. Why should an errant sperm have more rights in MY body than I do?

See, I had been pregnant by choice before, and I was overwhelmed with love for that fetus as soon as I learned that our efforts had produced fruits. I felt completely different about this one, and it horrified me to the point where I couldn't sleep, thinking about some horrible atrocity growing inside me that I couldn't escape from. It was a nightmare in every sense of the word. I doubt every woman feels this strongly, but I did, and I shouldn't be forced to live through something that horrific because somebody else's morals dictate that I should. I'm not religious anymore, and that is a big part of it. My religous beliefs had started to unravel a couple years earlier when I asked my pastor if people of other religions were going to hell. He said that he personally did not believe so, but the Bible made it clear that Jesus claimed that "No one gets to the Father but through me". He admitted that it was something he had not been able to resolve, which I appreciated. The second impasse was our church's stance on homsexuality, I stopped going over that.

The third was this unexpected pregnancy. I originally went to the doctor for a swollen leg- I thought nothing more than that, I was barely even late for my period at that point. I found out that I was pregnant, and had developed toxemia that fast. I would have to be bedridden and cared for throughout my pregnancy were I to carry the child. I had no such support system, and I was getting sicker. Yeah, the baby was a parasite to me, it was eating away at my health. I would have had to go to a women's shelter I guess- it gets absurd thinking about where my life would have gone had I kept that child, which I would have despised.

I got called "whore" and "baby killing bitch" by protesters outside the clinic where I went, and armed guards had to protect my safety. A couple women who offered me literature, which I refused, actually got in my face and called me names, as I had my head down just trying to walk the few step on to the private property where the guards could intervene for me.

So some sins are forgivable, and some are not. (S)Paul was allowed to murder many many born and grown Christians, and go on to be the most prolific writer of the NT, but little ol' me committed an unforgivable sin by aborting a fetus at five weeks- bullshit. I don't need a religion like that.
 

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Naw, you won't take flack from me, I really do understand what you're saying. Still, you read what I posted about being refused having my tubes tied. Is it acceptable that I only get the options of bearing children or being celibate? I HAVE been celibate for stretches of several years, several times. I feel I have a right to expect more of my life than being a breeding cow, it disgusts me. When I got pregnant at 41, having been told for years that the excessive doses of depo-provera that I had taken for years for another medical problem had probably left me sterile, having used condoms like a nazi- how do you think that made me feel? I sure as heck didn't feel "blessed by the Lord". I felt cursed with a demon.

My physical reaction was to hurt myself. I just wanted to carve it out of me with a kitchen knife, and I would have done ANYTHING POSSIBLE to get rid of it, legal or not, safe or not. I simply can't explain this feeling to someone who has not been pregnant with a child they don't want. I felt invaded at the core of my being. I would have gone completely mad, literally, had I been forced to carry that child. It was "it or me", I chose me. Why should an errant sperm have more rights in MY body than I do?

See, I had been pregnant by choice before, and I was overwhelmed with love for that fetus as soon as I learned that our efforts had produced fruits. I felt completely different about this one, and it horrified me to the point where I couldn't sleep, thinking about some horrible atrocity growing inside me that I couldn't escape from. It was a nightmare in every sense of the word. I doubt every woman feels this strongly, but I did, and I shouldn't be forced to live through something that horrific because somebody else's morals dictate that I should. I'm not religious anymore, and that is a big part of it. My religous beliefs had started to unravel a couple years earlier when I asked my pastor if people of other religions were going to hell. He said that he personally did not believe so, but the Bible made it clear that Jesus claimed that "No one gets to the Father but through me". He admitted that it was something he had not been able to resolve, which I appreciated. The second impasse was our church's stance on homsexuality, I stopped going over that.

The third was this unexpected pregnancy. I originally went to the doctor for a swollen leg- I thought nothing more than that, I was barely even late for my period at that point. I found out that I was pregnant, and had developed toxemia that fast. I would have to be bedridden and cared for throughout my pregnancy were I to carry the child. I had no such support system, and I was getting sicker. Yeah, the baby was a parasite to me, it was eating away at my health. I would have had to go to a women's shelter I guess- it gets absurd thinking about where my life would have gone had I kept that child, which I would have despised.

I got called "whore" and "baby killing bitch" by protesters outside the clinic where I went, and armed guards had to protect my safety. A couple women who offered me literature, which I refused, actually got in my face and called me names, as I had my head down just trying to walk the few step on to the private property where the guards could intervene for me.

So some sins are forgivable, and some are not. (S)Paul was allowed to murder many many born and grown Christians, and go on to be the most prolific writer of the NT, but little ol' me committed an unforgivable sin by aborting a fetus at five weeks- bullshit. I don't need a religion like that.

Wow!

Jana I am so sorry you had to go through that. I know it must have been horrible. This is so not easy. I do respect your choices. I cant imagine what that must have been like.
 

madame_zora

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Wow!

Jana I am so sorry you had to go through that. I know it must have been horrible. This is so not easy. I do respect your choices. I cant imagine what that must have been like.


Haha, now you know what was going on with me shortly after I joined here. I'm angry a lot because I've been treated with a lot of anger. Ohio is a very dangerous place anymore. Twenty years ago, I was interviewed on the local news as a passer-by about a bombing at an abortion clinic- this was obviously years before I had to face the issue, but I said "How can you claim to be *pro-life* by killing people?" I feel that way still. If you're pro-life, then follow through with it. Be gentle, have lots of kids, vote against war, vote for social support for the underprivileged who are born into poverty so that we don't have starving children in the richest nation in the world. Care for the homeless, give of your money and time to the benefit of others.

I haven't drawn a fist or a hand against another person since I was very young. In fact, I am a pacifist (my bark IS my only bite!) I "do the things" that my morals suggest I do, including money, even now when I'm very, very poor. I can't be of use to my fellow man, or myself if I am overburdened to the point that I can't cope. I wish people would just really take the time to try to imagine themselves in the postion of being pregnant unexpectedly, the guy freaks out and starts attacking you too, making it clear he will not be there for you, being shunned by society, and knowing that whatever you do is going to be awful. It's a bigger issue than can be summed up in a few catchy phrases.
 

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I got called "whore" and "baby killing bitch" by protesters outside the clinic where I went, and armed guards had to protect my safety. A couple women who offered me literature, which I refused, actually got in my face and called me names, as I had my head down just trying to walk the few step on to the private property where the guards could intervene for me.
.
Wow. Memories flooding through my head as I read although your circumstances were different than mine. I remember being 20, married, broke and trying to get in the door at Planned Parenthood to get an exam and buy birth control pills. Protesters standing outside shouting, chanting, telling me how awful I was for walking in a "place of sin and destruction". All I was trying to do was to prevent pregnancy and they're assuming i'm there to "butcher my baby". They had no idea why I or any other woman was there. It was an unsettling experience to say the least. After that, I had little tolerance for people who refused to see how tough it is for a woman to make a decision regarding her own body when she has to deal with all the noise from everyone else. It's difficult enough as it is without being demonized by others at a time when they often feel the most vulnerable and frustrated. No one can know what's behind the decision unless they tell you or you've walked in their shoes. That day, I was afforded only a peek but it was enough to make me realise that, too often, it's easier for some to harshly judge others than offer compassion

I hope others read about your experience and learn from it, J.