Burqa ban?

[mitchymo]

yes, i'll bend the rules while im bending u over

ok, after you've pulled your dick out my mouth and prised my hands off your ass!

 

[vince]

Draconian.

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

I don't agree.

Of course, however, your solution to veiling has been attempted in the same spirit of 'help' many times - unfortunately, to no significant or lasting success.

One need only look as far as Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Turkey (thanks, Vince for mentioning) or France for examples.

 

[Jason]

Lady Shady, my response is prompted by your seeming certainty in a complex area where there is not certainty. Your assertion that the burqa is the "veil of choice" needs to be challenged. I'm well aware that it is possible to find Islamic women who claim to like wearing a burqa. I'm also aware that in an environment such as Afghanistan women have little choice. But if you have ever seen one of these monstrosities you will be aware that they offer the comfort of a hair shirt and the visibility of blinkers. The starting assumption has to be that no-one would wear them from choice. Where there appear to be exceptions then those exceptions have to be explored. It is reasonable to ask whether a woman who says she wants to wear a burqa is truly speaking of her own free will. It is also reasonable to ask whether a yes given freely indicates a psychological problem. There is an extensive literature in both these areas as they are real issues. These are both relevant considerations. If there really are women who wear a burqa for their own free choice then this too needs to be explored. I suggest the number of women in this category is vanishingly small.

In the UK we have two separate issues:
* Burqa and treatment of women
* Burqa and security (in an age of a high terror alert, and when already we routinely stop the wearing of hoods in shopping centres).

Whether a ban is the best response is a difficult question, but it needs discussion. Yes we can reasonably look at how the issue has been treated elsewhere, but also we need to remember that Britain does not easily stand comparison with say Afghanistan.

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

Lady Shady, my response is prompted by your seeming certainty in a complex area where there is not certainty. Your assertion that the burqa is the "veil of choice" needs to be challenged.

I stated "Burqas, as iconic as they remain, are the veil of choice for a tiny portion of hijab wearing women". Challenge if you must, but the statement is correct.

I'm well aware that it is possible to find Islamic women who claim to like wearing a burqa. I'm also aware that in an environment such as Afghanistan women have little choice. But if you have ever seen one of these monstrosities you will be aware that they offer the comfort of a hair shirt and the visibility of blinkers.

I have been in contact with women who have worn a burqa or niqab, and other forms of the hijab, in daily life. In cosmopolitan environments such as New York City and Los Angeles, of all places, and the actions have been by choice.

The starting assumption has to be that no-one would wear them from choice.

Your assumption based upon your values. However, there are many hijab by choice women that disagree with your assessment of their condition.

Where there appear to be exceptions then those exceptions have to be explored. It is reasonable to ask whether a woman who says she wants to wear a burqa is truly speaking of her own free will. It is also reasonable to ask whether a yes given freely indicates a psychological problem. There is an extensive literature in both these areas as they are real issues. These are both relevant considerations. If there really are women who wear a burqa for their own free choice then this too needs to be explored. I suggest the number of women in this category is vanishingly small.

I explore this topic on a daily basis, and it comes down to personal choice based upon the same sort of influences that makeup your point of view on the subject.

In the UK we have two separate issues:
* Burqa and treatment of women
* Burqa and security (in an age of a high terror alert, and when already we routinely stop the wearing of hoods in shopping centres).

Burqas, again, are not necessarily indicative of abuse.
Regarding security, if the UK feels that a woman in full veiling is a security risk, that's one thing. However, you were associating mental illness with the decision to veil in the manner one chooses, which was flawed, at best.

Whether a ban is the best response is a difficult question, but it needs discussion. Yes we can reasonably look at how the issue has been treated elsewhere, but also we need to remember that Britain does not easily stand comparison with say Afghanistan.

I am all for discussion, however, as I previously stated, unveiling women against their will is a timeworn, failed scheme.

 

[Jason]

I have been in contact with women who have worn a burqa or niqab, and other forms of the hijab, in daily life. In cosmopolitan environments such as New York City and Los Angeles, of all places, and the actions have been by choice.

President Sarkozy of France has said "In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," and the term "prisoners behind a screen" reflects a body of solid scholarship within France which sees two reasons - pressure from husband/society and psychological abuse - as the reasons for burqa wearing - not free choice. Now it is of course possible that the French scholarship is wrong. But it is based on solid research and needs to be taken seriously. It appears that the very sight of a woman in a burqa is proof positive of abuse to that woman.

In view of the French research I suggest you are mistaken in believing that the women you have encountered in NYC and LA are wearing burqas by choice. I can quite believe that they may have said this and been very convincing but unless there is solid academic research to the contrary I am not willing to accept this. The women may have believed they meant what they said. I don't doubt you believed them. But none of this makes it true. Rather these women are abused, as abused as the women who have bruises from being beaten.

Quite how we respond to this issue is difficult. I agree that unveiling women for their own good is problematic. We certainly need to stop more women being veiled. But we (in the UK) do also have the security issue (which is growing) and we do have issues around integration within society. I don't have a solution, but believing that women want to wear burqas is as unhelpful as believing women like a good beating.

(NB in French burqa is used for both burqa and nihab, so Sarkozy meant both.)

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

President Sarkozy of France has said "In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," and the term "prisoners behind a screen" reflects a body of solid scholarship within France which sees two reasons - pressure from husband/society and psychological abuse - as the reasons for burqa wearing - not free choice. Now it is of course possible that the French scholarship is wrong. But it is based on solid research and needs to be taken seriously. It appears that the very sight of a woman in a burqa is proof positive of abuse to that woman. .

The issues in France pre-date Sarkozy by decades, and while entitled to his opinion, he is, by no means, a scholar on the subject.

In view of the French research I suggest you are mistaken in believing that the women you have encountered in NYC and LA are wearing burqas by choice. I can quite believe that they may have said this and been very convincing but unless there is solid academic research to the contrary I am not willing to accept this. The women may have believed they meant what they said. I don't doubt you believed them. But none of this makes it true. Rather these women are abused, as abused as the women who have bruises from being beaten.

Perhaps easier to believe they are abused and lack autonomy because that is your point of view, however, for the women I associate with it is by choice. Indeed, for many women worldwide, without familial or spousal dictates, to veil, in whatever manner, is a choice.

In other words, your suggestion is incorrect.

Quite how we respond to this issue is difficult. I agree that unveiling women for their own good is problematic. We certainly need to stop more women being veiled. But we (in the UK) do also have the security issue (which is growing) and we do have issues around integration within society. I don't have a solution, but believing that women want to wear burqas is as unhelpful as believing women like a good beating.

(NB in French burqa is used for both burqa and nihab, so Sarkozy meant both.)

The attitude of unveiling women being "for their own good" is what's problematic.

 

[B_ccc888]

WHY Muslim immigrants leaving their SHARIA HELL HOLES LAND for secular Western Countries

and yet want to create another SHARIA HELL HOLES again that they have left behind ?

It's time for all Humanity to say to them................

Leave your cult behind and free yourselves up as full human beings that can think and reason without being brainwashed by others.

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

WHY Muslim immigrants leaving their SHARIA HELL HOLES LAND for secular Western Countries

and yet want to create another SHARIA HELL HOLES again that they have left behind ?

It's time for all Humanity to say to them................

Leave your cult behind and free yourselves up as full human beings that can think and reason without being brainwashed by others.

To answer, I guess you would first have to research the demographics for Muslim immigrants to the UK or US (whatever your nation)? Then ascertain what percentage have immigrated from a country that governs solely by Sharia.

Finally, of that group, you would then have to further breakdown what percentage would prefer their adopted country to govern by Sharia.

Good luck.

 

[Drifterwood]

There are 179 pages of dress worthy of banning right under your noses.

People of Walmart: a collection of all the creatures that grace us with their presence at Walmart, America's favorite store.

 

[Drifterwood]

OMG

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

There are 179 pages of dress worthy of banning right under your noses.

People of Walmart: a collection of all the creatures that grace us with their presence at Walmart, America's favorite store.

:rofl:


http://media.peopleofwalmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/848.jpg
^false advertising and axe murderer scary. :tongue:

 

[midlifebear]

There are 179 pages of dress worthy of banning right under your noses.

People of Walmart: a collection of all the creatures that grace us with their presence at Walmart, America's favorite store.

Drifter:

Well, first I have to say that peopleofwalmart.com is terribly insensitive and cruel. Second, I have to say that it's also fucking hilarious and has made my week. Thank you sooooo much for posting that link. I needed that. :tongue:

MLB

 

[vince]

There are 179 pages of dress worthy of banning right under your noses.

People of Walmart: a collection of all the creatures that grace us with their presence at Walmart, America's favorite store.

Thanks Drifter. For a few years now, my daughter and I have made a point of people watching Walmart. It one of the touristic (and really fun) things we do when we go to Florida. I know... I'm an elitist asshole. But what can I do??

I bet her husband forces her to wear this. I mean, this outfit is so bad, one must to assume that no-one would wear it from choice. Either that or she has a destructive psychological problem.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Drifterwood: You SO deserve a spanking for showing us this. I can't stop reading and laughing at this, as I feel my usual late night productivity come to a screeching halt.

Bad, naughty, evil WONDERFUL Driftwood. LOL!!!