Bush and the Iraq war

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Oct 6 2004, 11:12 PM
Yeah, it's not bad enough that doctors get kickbacks from certain drug companies for prescribing their medicines, but now the ads have people trying to diagnose themselves,

Ain't that the truth! The dysfunction of our medical care system works wonders in all directions. Because of some bad experiences resulting from the advice of my HMO, I often (usually, to be blunt) feel the need to second guess the doctor's diagnosis and treatment plan. Why? Because the HMO limits his ability to explore different treatments unless I aggressively pursue them myself.

Sound crazy? It sure is. I end up having to question the doctor to pry more information out so that I can suggest treatments myself. I'm not a doctor and I don't really want to become one. But in the end I can't really trust my doctor. I'm the only true advocate of my own health care concerns I can rely on.

SG

 

[KinkGuy]

IF you are fortunate enough to get an appointment before what ever you have kills you, IF you actually get to see a Dr instead of a "nurse practitioner", IF they spend more than 37 seconds diagnosing the problem all of which occurs in less time than you spent in the over crowded, infected waiting room filling out the same frigging paperwork for the millionth time. And the final injury? Trying to figure out how to order the medicine they say you need over the internet, after you get advance approval, after you have a phone interview and fill out more paperwork for your "prescription medicine provider." I've decided their goal is: 1) you will get over it on your own before they have to do anything 2) you will die before they have to do anything 3) you'll finally wise us and pay the fucking bill with your own money to get some care! It's a win-win! Four more years! Four more years! Maybe I won't live that long.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Originally posted by SpeedoGuy@Oct 6 2004, 11:55 PM
Sound crazy? It sure is. I end up having to question the doctor to pry more information out so that I can suggest treatments myself. I'm not a doctor and I don't really want to become one. But in the end I can't really trust my doctor. I'm the only true advocate of my own health care concerns I can rely on.

SG

[post=258516]Quoted post[/post]​

And I get ripped to shreds by American conservatives on other forums for suggesting that there is something seriously wrong with the US healthcare system.

Let me get this straight - the US healthcare system consumes double the resources as any other system in the world, yet 20% of the population recieves no healthcare at all. And this is 'better' because its not "socialism"???

The systems in Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands all cost under half what the US system costs, yet coverage is 100% and every study ever done says there's no substantial difference in quality of care. But this is 'socialism' so its more evil than the greedy HMO's and Pharmaceutical companies bribing the US Government to line their own pockets?

I think I'm missing something here...

Certainly I am NOT my own doctor and have no need to be one. If I have a medical issue, my doctor will see me and take as long as its needed to address my situation. The cost of the situation never enters the discussion. Obviously, I don't live in the USA and have no desire to do so on this basis!

 

[jonb]

These are the same people who say we should be resolute about the Iraq war. Thankfully, I'm being resolute; I saw through Bush the first time he mentioned weapons. CONS (Conservative Orators of Neoliberal Stupidity) basically have the motto "If it's broke, don't fix it."

Meanwhile, the military gets enough funding to invest in perpetual motion.

 

[madame_zora]

Ooh, Jonb, that's hot!

I get deeply saddaned to think about what our country was founded to be and what it has actually becme. We could have been so much more than this- we could have embraced the various beliefs and ideologies of all our people, we could have let love reign supreme over weakness and fear, we could have worked together on building solutions instead of finding reasons to raise ourselves up by stepping on the backs of our brothers......What was it we were trying to escape by coming here? Just about everything we now have.

 

[jonb]

TINW LOL

Seriously, though, neocons would rather be steadfast than right.

 

[KinkGuy]

No Lucky, I think you understand our situation perfectly well. After all, it isn't about illness and healthcare.....it's about money.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by KinkGuy@Oct 8 2004, 10:22 PM
No Lucky, I think you understand our situation perfectly well. After all, it isn't about illness and healthcare.....it's about money.

[post=258625]Quoted post[/post]​

My sentiments exactly, KG. Health is only a peripheral component of our healthcare system. Getting dollars out of the pockets of consumers and into the bonuses of health company executives is primary.

When I was in college I was lightly struck by a car while bicycling. I was knocked to the ground and some kind passersby dragged me and my bicycle off the pavement. I lay there nearly senseless while someone called for help. When the ambulance crew arrived their very first question to me was: "How are you going to pay for this?" Luckily, I was covered by a health plan and could somehow remember my card number. But if I hadn't been covered.....well, you can fill in the rest. As it turned out, I wasn't badly injured but 'll never forget the awful feeling I received that day.

SG

 

[cruztbone]

Madame Z, Jon B and others: there is still time left to make this nation OURS again and return it to the nation that Madame so eloquently described above. Join the campaign! Help us return this nation to a sense of rational thought and government based on the constitution. John /John need your time, your money and your willingness to email friends and others around this nation before and on November 2. I am vice president of my local teachers' union. We are actively involved in the campaign. I know you love this nation as I do. Jump into the fight for the soul of the U.S. today. We will only have ourselves to blame if we fail..............

 

[madame_zora]

Well said, Cruztbone. I am volunteering with MoveOnPac and highly encourage everyone to do their part in whatever capacity we can to remove this bastard from our midst. I'm also driving some non-drivers to the polls- hell, I'll buy 'em a beer if it'll help!

 

[jay_too]

SG and LuckyL..

Our health care system is about HealthSouth and greed. Senate Majority Leader Frists's family "owns" one of the largest providers of health services in the nation. Now you wouldn't want him to vote against his interests, now would you?

I have to admit our health care system works extremely well for those with insurance and health savings accounts. A month ago, I went to the emergency room with a fever [102-103] that I could not break. In my financial "interview," I turned over my cards signed some forms and took a seat in the waiting room. Maybe 10 minutes later I was seeing a doctor. The guy I sitting next to in the waiting room had been there an hour. I ended up staying "quarantined" in emergency for 5 hours while they found me an isolation room. No, I did not have TB. Anyway when I was being wheeled up to my isolation, I saw the uninsured guy begin the process of geting his vitals taken by a nurse.

Six hours to begin health care seems a little long. Is there not a medical admonishment to do no harm? Apparently, health care as we know it in America is at odds with the hypocratic oath. If there were a referendum on socialized medicine, there is no doubt that I would vote "YES."

jay

 

[13788]

YoungNHung19: Sorry geo8x6, guess you forgot aout September 11th, 2001 when OVER terrorists killed over 3,000 innocent Americans. Now, we have sent soldiers, who have signed on the dotted line knowing everyday they could end up being called to war and possibly killed in the future (just like police offficers go into work everyday not knowing if they will come home since 140 + cops a year are killed on duty in the USA). Iraq was harboring terrorists..if you don't think so, watch the news, they are fighting US soldiers in Iraq, and beheading innocent civilians! Best part is Saddam was paying off the French and North Koreans by giving them oil so they would keep there mouth shut and stay out of it. But I guess to you, like Kerry, terrorism is just a niusance, and we need to be more sensitive!!!!

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by YoungNHung19@Oct 12 2004, 08:07 AM
Sorry geo8x6, guess you forgot aout September 11th, 2001 when OVER terrorists killed over 3,000 innocent Americans. Now, we have sent soldiers, who have signed on the dotted line knowing everyday they could end up being called to war and possibly killed in the future (just like police offficers go into work everyday not knowing if they will come home since 140 + cops a year are killed on duty in the USA). Iraq was harboring terrorists..if you don't think so, watch the news, they are fighting US soldiers in Iraq, and beheading innocent civilians! Best part is Saddam was paying off the French and North Koreans by giving them oil so they would keep there mouth shut and stay out of it. But I guess to you, like Kerry, terrorism is just a niusance, and we need to be more sensitive!!!!

[post=259064]Quoted post[/post]​

Wow, where do you get this stuff? Oh yeah, I forgot, if it's on the news, it MUST be true, right? lol.

The vast majority of the terrorists are Arabs, so who do you suppose is paying off bush to keep us out of Saudi Arabia?

 

[KinkGuy]

Fox News....."Fair and Balanced"....remember?

 

[jonb]

Ah, the mating call of the net.loon

Originally posted by YoungNHung19@Oct 12 2004, 12:07 AM
Sorry geo8x6, guess you forgot aout September 11th, 2001 when OVER terrorists

None of them from Iraq, and 15 of them Saudi. They were backed by the Saudi royal family. Osama bin Laden's also Saudi.

killed over 3,000 innocent Americans.

As opposed to the U.S. killing 13,000-15,000 Iraqis, most of them civilians. I've heard of an eye for an eye, but I don't have enough eyes.

Now, we have sent soldiers, who have signed on the dotted line knowing everyday they could end up being called to war and possibly killed in the future (just like police offficers go into work everyday not knowing if they will come home since 140 + cops a year are killed on duty in the USA).

But retired cops aren't recalled. And there weren't enough soldiers anyway; everyone knows that. It's because White House, Inc. claimed we'd be greeted as liberators, which is actually harder to believe than 70 doe-eyed virgins.

Iraq was harboring terrorists.

As was the U.S. in the 80s. Either way, Iraq wasn't harboring Al Qaeda. Let Israel handle their own wars.

if you don't think so, watch the news, they are fighting US soldiers in Iraq, and beheading innocent civilians!

Americans who are reconstructing Iraq. Of course, it'd be cheaper -- and less dangerous -- to outsource that to Iraqis. Also note that these same people wanted Saddam out, while Bush's Daddy wanted Saddam in.

Best part is Saddam was paying off the French and North Koreans by giving them oil so they would keep there mouth shut and stay out of it.

Evidence would be nice.

But I guess to you, like Kerry, terrorism is just a niusance, and we need to be more sensitive!!!!

This is what happens when you take things out of context. Maybe Kerry meant sensible; Bush has had quite a few of those gaffes. (And he also said we should be more "sensitive" in 2001.) Specifically, Kerry was referring to sensitivity to traditional U.S. allies. (You know, the ones who loved us for over half a centruy until Bush said to invade Iraq?)

Actually, what happens when you take things out of context. An intelligence report claimed Saddam bought uranium from Niger. The context was a poorly-written novel by a Tom Clancy wannabe.

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by KinkGuy@Oct 12 2004, 05:27 PM
Fox News....."Fair and Balanced"....remember?

[post=259171]Quoted post[/post]​

Maybe by "balanced" they meant head over heels for Bush.

 

[13788]

YoungNHung19: JonB, I am beggining to enjoy are arguements..I like people who have passion and believe in the issues. However, you are still wrong...haha. First, I am not the net loon, just not a dope smoking, tree hugging hippie, why can't we all just get along person. I am more of a realist in that reguard. Really, none of the terrorists from Iraq. You must be kidding, of course they were, Iraq is a haven for terrorsts. Every heard of they guy chopping off American heads at an alarming rate in Iraq right now. Sorry, but innocent people will be hurt in any military use of force, John Kerry would have done the same thing if he invaded Iraq, so sorry, war is not pretty...guess we should have just let them keep killing Americans. Yes, retired cops can be re-called if they are still considered part-time, or reserve status, depending on there department. We were greeted as liberators by millions and millions of Iraqi's...did you not see them taking down Saddam's statute when he was captured? More than 10 million Iraqi's have registered to vote...the only people killing Amerians are a few Saddam loyalists and the terrorists! Of course all you see on this news is killing and resistance because that is what is newsworthy and juicy. Yes, Iraq was harboring Al Queda, if you don't beleive so ask how most of the Al Queda head honchos have been captured in Iraq? Ask John Kerry what he thinks since he has made statements to the effect..then again he has made a lot of statements he has gone back on...not enough space to explain. Your cheap shot at Bush, by saying his daddy didn't want him out is not completely true, another half-truth, no surprise there...besides John Kerry voted againast giving the President the authority for war in the Gulf War, but of course voted for the war in Iraq, but then in his own admission stated he voted for the Iraq war, but then he voted for the $87 billion in troop funding before he voted against it, because it was a political statement. Playing with troops lives, GREAT time to make a political statement! Of course there is evidence of the pay-offs by North Korea and France...why do you think they wouldn't help us, and also publicly said they wouldn't help John Kerry even if he wasn't elected, which kills 1/4 of his plan for Iraq since he is going to assemble an international coalitionI guess more than the 30 countries we have now) Haven't you been following the news..it's called the oil for food scandal. You say maybe Kerry meant sensible instead of sensitive, whatever he meant, no one sure as hell knows, you sure don't. You said, he said you thought "maybe" he meant sensible, and then the nest sentence you said he "specifically" meant he was reffering to the sensitivity of traditional US allies. Which is it? Problem is you don't know, because even Kerry doesn't know. If you blame Bush for invading Iraq and causing bad relations with the world blame John Kerry and the rest of the US congress also, remember they have to vote to authorize the right to go to war, not the President...John Kerry voted to go to war, and then when it was unpopular with his liberal base and he began losing to Howard Dean in the primaries he changed his mind. So basically before you vote for Kerry you have to ask yourself, what he has done that is so great in his long 20 year Senate career, besides vote for about tax increases about 98 times...? I can lead you to the promise land, the grass is greener over hear, just go to www.rushlimbaugh.com and change yourself for the better.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

In the name of all that is good!

Use

The

Enter

Key!

Anyhow, as a TV show once mentioned.

"Mr President, there were no terrorists in Iraq"
"There are now!"

 

[madame_zora]

Al-Queda was headquartered in Afghanistan- once we deomlished that country, suspicion of terrorists was just the ruse bush used to get approval from the American people to go along with it. A lot of people, Kerry included, were in favor of going to war, but disapproved of it once it became clear that there were no weapons of mass distruction or any clear evidence that there were any more members of Al-Queda there than in any other country (US included). That is not a flip-flop, that is simply assessing new information, which anyone with any intelligence at all would do.

Still, the largest number of Al-Queda members have been Saudis, who have befriended the bushes for the last 20 odd years. There's no way this administration is ever going after them, especially not with so much money and personal friendships at stake.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Where does one start? Or why does one bother?

Originally posted by YoungNHung19+Oct 13 2004, 03:40 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(YoungNHung19 &#064; Oct 13 2004, 03:40 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>...JonB, I am beggining to enjoy are arguements..I like people who have passion and believe in the issues. However, you are still wrong...haha. [/b]

Great rebuttal.

Originally posted by YoungNHung19@Oct 13 2004, 03:40 AM
... We were greeted as liberators by millions and millions of Iraqi&#39;s...did you not see them taking down Saddam&#39;s statute when he was captured?

It was the US military that took down that statue. As for the "millions" of cheering Iraqis, what have you been smoking?

Originally posted by YoungNHung19@Oct 13 2004, 03:40 AM
...More than 10 million Iraqi&#39;s have registered to vote...

You&#39;ve got your news reports mixed up. They haven&#39;t even begun to register voters in Iraq yet. The 10 million registered voters is in reference to Afganistan - where there are in fact only about 9.7 million eligible voters.

<!--QuoteBegin-YoungNHung19@Oct 13 2004, 03:40 AM
...besides John Kerry voted againast giving the President the authority for war in the Gulf War, but of course voted for the war in Iraq, but then in his own admission stated he voted for the Iraq war, but then he voted for the &#036;87 billion in troop funding before he voted against it, because it was a political statement. Playing with troops lives, GREAT time to make a political statement&#33; [/quote]
I think Kerry&#39;s position here is a valid one. Kerry voted to pay for the Iraq war out of present funding. Bush refused and insisted on making your grandkids pay for it. Kerry was opposed to that. Seems reasonable to me if you actually think about it.