Bush Bashing - "Not Just for Joking Anymore"

[dong20]

....since it's clearly moved from (arguably) humorous political cartoons..

Arguably humorous..sounds suspiciously like official censorship to me...:tongue:

Thanks...Matthew.

 

[jeremyA]

Oh come on people,I mean purrlease "In America blaire is loved just like thatcher was" I am not quite sure which part of the planet zarkoflof this comes from but in England Thatcher is seen as a raving lunatic, Blaire is a greasy slimy little toad with his tongue wedged up Bush's anus and Bush is a low grade moron who is run by the gun lobby, weapons manufacturers and the oil industry.
If I had my way they would be first against the wall.

 

[Matthew]

Arguably humorous..sounds suspiciously like nothing more than a bit of sexy, harmless fun to me...:tongue:

Thanks...Matthew.

You're welcome, Dong. :wink:

 

[jeremyA]

As for whats wrong with people wiretapping phone calls without a warrant and interceptin emails and all the other shit that goes on,we ll I dont know if people who say its all fine know anything about the struggle that people went through to ensure that your government has to have a valid and legally defensable reason to invade your privacy, and I am amazed by the ease with which people who are looking to erode civil liberties for whatever reason are able to do so because they can rely on people saying 'oh its ok cos some nasty terrorists might be phoning up to plot their dastardly plots'
bollocks this is YOUR government taking away YOUR rights and liberties under some bullshit pretext, as they have been wanting to do for the past 200 years.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Oh come on people,I mean purrlease "In America blaire is loved just like thatcher was" I am not quite sure which part of the planet zarkoflof this comes from but in England Thatcher is seen as a raving lunatic, Blaire is a greasy slimy little toad with his tongue wedged up Bush's anus and Bush is a low grade moron who is run by the gun lobby, weapons manufacturers and the oil industry.
If I had my way they would be first against the wall.

What's your point? That therefore it's not true that Blair is highly regarded in America?
And I'm sure British attitudes towards Thatcher/Blair/Bush are not quite as one-sided as you make them out to be.
You know, if you're always strident (as you are), you'll sound like a clown. No one will listen to you, ever.

 

[DC_DEEP]

...Collecting data on phone numbers, websites, etc isn't necessarily an invasion of your privacy. If you aren't doing anything wrong, what's the concern? I'm sure our government does/has done many things unbeknownst to the general public - regardless of political affiliation.

I cannot honestly believe that you would use actual damage as a yardstick to determine what government actions are ok. In legal circles, it is known as precedent. If you tell the government you don't mind a curtailment of rights until you feel the effects, you give them carte blanche to curtail YOUR rights... and then, your defense will be meaningless. It is NOT ok to say "I don't mind the government stripping rights, as long as it's not ME." I am NOT doing anything wrong - believe it or not, I am an avid patriot. But it is my COUNTRY I love, not necessarily the US Government. But the fact that I am doing nothing wrong does not mean I don't value my privacy and my liberty. It makes me a bit nauseous that you would actually say "It's happened before without our knowledge, we shouldn't worry about it now." I do not want the government keeping track of what websites I visit, what books I check out from the library, or what I purchase with my credit card. I am not one of those who likes to keep my head in the sand. I like to stay informed. It's a little scary to think that I might be on a watchlist, simply because I wanted to find out a little more information about Al Qaeda from a website. Not to mention that personal information sales have reached an all-time high in the past couple of years. I ordered some rifle cases last year, from (what I thought was) a reputable company. After I harrassed them at length, they finally admitted that they sold my information to a clearinghouse... who in turn sold it to every one of their clients who have anything to do with guns. Not only was I getting junk mail from NRA, etc... I was also getting it from white seperatist groups, anarchist societies, and others I am certain are on the DHS and NSA watchlists. I'm now in their database. I used to have no trouble at the airport, but since that one purchase, I have had to go through secondary and tertiary "random" screenings every time I have flown.

 

[Shelby]

Here's a little surprise for you. It's not us against the government. The government is us.

Come up with all the anecdotal exceptions you wish. At the root of it what I say is true.
​

 

[brainzz_n_dong]

When FISA was passed and signed into law in 1978, it provided for exceptions. One is literally known as "electronic surveillance authorization without a court order". Carter even issued an executive order 5-23-79 that said "pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, the attorney general is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order." That was 27 years ago.

Clinton's administration argued in 1994 that the President has "inherent authority" to order physical searches — including break-ins at the homes of U.S. citizens — for foreign intelligence purposes without any warrant or permission from any outside body. He did ultimately agree to put any such requests under the FISA law, but asst atty general Jamie Gorelick said that the DOJ at that time believed that Clinton had the power and that the existing caselaw backed them up. They even cited a 1981 exec order signed by Ronald Reagan (provided for warrantless searches directed against a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power) as one of their supporting documents as part of the paper trail of how the executive branch, over time, viewed this issue.

I guess my primary point is that intel gathering didn't start the day Bush took office in 2001.

{Permission for another nut to move to the village?}

 

[dong20]

I cannot honestly believe that you would use actual damage as a yardstick to determine what government actions are ok. In legal circles, it is known as precedent. If you tell the government you don't mind a curtailment of rights until you feel the effects, you give them carte blanche to curtail YOUR rights... and then, your defense will be meaningless. It is NOT ok to say "I don't mind the government stripping rights, as long as it's not ME."

That is exactly what those who seek to supress those rights are depending on.....it'll never happen to me, I'm nice person not a nasty <insert relevant target of scorn here>, who give my country a bad name. Until of course your name pops up mixed up with someone elses and suddenly your a criminal. I posted on this....but no one picked it up: http://www.lpsg.org/466776-post1.html

It makes me a bit nauseous that you would actually say "It's happened before without our knowledge, we shouldn't worry about it now."

Ignorance is most definately not bliss.

....they finally admitted that they sold my information to a clearinghouse... who in turn sold it to every one of their clients who have anything to do with guns. Not only was I getting junk mail from NRA, etc... I was also getting it from white seperatist groups, anarchist societies, and others I am certain are on the DHS and NSA watchlists. I'm now in their database. I used to have no trouble at the airport, but since that one purchase, I have had to go through secondary and tertiary "random" screenings every time I have flown.

Sounds awful and I'd lay odds it affects thousands more. There are data protection laws to 'prevent' that here i.e. consent is requried before personal data are sold on, but they are often ignored with little fear of redress and really only apply fully to UK companies. I get calls from India daily trying to sell me stuff, I used to be polite now I just tell where to go and put their products and services where the sun don't shine. FWIW I swear it has reduced the calls.

Privacy.....what's that?:tongue:

 

[dong20]

.....bollocks this is YOUR government taking away YOUR rights and liberties under some bullshit pretext, as they have been wanting to do for the past 200 years.

They're doing to you and I too remember. (Not the Americans for once)

 

[jeremyA]

Well all i can say is I have to be strident because as far as i can see nobody in america is being very strident about anything and it seems that under the pretext of protecting the fatherland, sorry I mean the homeland youre just going to sit and watch as all your rights are taken away, and what pisses me off is it effects me as well out in the real world.So even if you don't care and are prepared to lie back and let em fuck you I am not.Don't come running to me because you cannot get a job because your neibor has reported you to the fatherland vigilance commitee for un-american activities or having suspicious eyebrows or for reading a book or having unathorised thoughts of your own.Ive no idea where the idea that the government is you comes from

 

[dong20]

....but in England Thatcher is seen as a raving lunatic, Blaire is a greasy slimy little toad with his tongue wedged up Bush's anus and Bush is a low grade moron who is run by the gun lobby, weapons manufacturers and the oil industry.
If I had my way they would be first against the wall.

Putting them against the wall is all well and good in the movies but sadly that's make-believe. The point is that you don't get your way, and history shows us that method of political change tends to have unpleasant side effects.

Thatcher was seen by people in many different ways and, like any person she had her good and bad points. Like it or not some of the things we take for granted are down to her and her policies, as, sadly are some of the things we hate.

I despised a lot of what she stood for but I don't think we all see her as a 'raving lunatic' as you imply. And to be frank, if that's your true age you are too young to speak of her time as PM from personal experience.

 

[Shelby]

Ive no idea where the idea that the government is you comes from

Maybe from the fact that we're governed by popularly elected representative officials?

Oh wait, moonbats think that's horseshit.

 

[dong20]

Maybe from the fact that we're governed by popularly elected representative officials?

Oh wait, moonbats think that's horseshit.

LOL....I'd question the 'popularity' of your present administration, both at home and abroad but the concept is sound. :smile:

It's little different here to be honest.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Well all i can say is I have to be strident because as far as i can see nobody in america is being very strident about anything and it seems that under the pretext of protecting the fatherland, sorry I mean the homeland youre just going to sit and watch as all your rights are taken away, and what pisses me off is it effects me as well out in the real world. So even if you don't care and are prepared to lie back and let em fuck you I am not.

But Jeremy, don't you hear a lot of strong feeling on this very thread? I don't think everyone is lying back and letting them fuck us.
It's fun to be passionate, but it's also fun to feel yourself presenting points in a way that can reach people of other perspectives.
But then, Jeremy, I was born a codger.
With luck, you'll become one.:biggrin1:
(I should add that I am a Canadian, not an American. And my sense of disquiet about what is currently happening in the United States, and yes, to a lesser degree, in Britain, is very real, as is yours.)

 

[Dr Rock]

:smile: I feel bad for bush and tony 911 happend and the whole landscape changedNo other us president or prim minester has ever had such hard problems to deal with.

don't be a clown. we had 2 world wars last century, or had you forgotten? or going back even further, i wonder how our present governments would handle a good old-fashioned plague epidemic. on a historical scale, the events of september 11th are a nothing. the present threat of terrorism is a nothing, compared to the threats of full-scale war, plague, famine and disaster that people had to live through for 30,000 years - and for most of that timescale, without corrupt and ineffectual governments already making their daily lives difficult.

You must be joking! Where do you think dubya and jebya LEARNED how to be so evil?

actually mostly from their reagan-era government hacks, i suspect - turds like cheney and rumsfeld. i don't think GHW had enough personality to influence his inbred spawn to any significant degree.

Here's a little surprise for you. It's not us against the government. The government is us.

for all i know, the government might be you - but it sure as hell ain't me. i didn't vote for any of them; hell, i didn't even choose who was up for election, and neither did you, nor anyone else here. all you did was make your mark next to the name of someone who'd already been chosen for you by institutionalized politics.

Putting them against the wall is all well and good in the movies but sadly that's make-believe.

well, maybe it's about time that it wasn't. i dunno about you, but i sure as hell never signed any "social contract" that obliges me to accept the unconditional authority of some lying, thieving psychopath who's never even met me. my respect has to be earned - it won't be squeezed out of me through fear of reprisal.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

on a historical scale, the events of september 11th are a nothing. the present threat of terrorism is a nothing, compared to the threats of full-scale war, plague, famine and disaster that people had to live through for 30,000 years - and for most of that timescale, without corrupt and ineffectual governments already making their daily lives difficult.

When, Dr. Rock? When?



actually mostly from their reagan-era government hacks, i suspect - turds like cheney and rumsfeld. i don't think GHW had enough personality to influence his inbred spawn to any significant degree.


I agree 1000 per cent.



for all i know, the government might be you - but it sure as hell ain't me. i didn't vote for any of them; hell, i didn't even choose who was up for election, and neither did you, nor anyone else here. all you did was make your mark next to the name of someone who'd already been chosen for you by institutionalized politics.


Not ideal, but this ain't Athens. And how else are you going to run a nation of 300-million people?



well, maybe it's about time that it wasn't. i dunno about you, but i sure as hell never signed any "social contract" that obliges me to accept the unconditional authority of some lying, thieving psychopath who's never even met me. my respect has to be earned - it won't be squeezed out of me through fear of reprisal.[/quote]


Good. So you won't respect the government. You and tens of millions of others. But what difference does it make?

 

[dong20]

for all i know, the government might be you - but it sure as hell ain't me. i didn't vote for any of them; hell, i didn't even choose who was up for election, and neither did you, nor anyone else here. all you did was make your mark next to the name of someone who'd already been chosen for you by institutionalized politics.

Too many of us still think we live in democracies....

....i dunno about you, but i sure as hell never signed any "social contract" that obliges me to accept the unconditional authority of some lying, thieving psychopath who's never even met me. my respect has to be earned - it won't be squeezed out of me through fear of reprisal.

I'm 100% with you there especially as Blair is now a Lame Duck.:biggrin1:

 

[DC_DEEP]

...Until of course your name pops up mixed up with someone elses and suddenly your a criminal...

Oh shit, I had forgotten about those and other related debacles. When DHS took over airport passenger screening, they used an INCREDIBLY horrid bit of software to compile portions of the "no-fly list." If you aren't familiar with SOUNDEX, you really should look it up. This is an over-simplification, but basically, it takes massive lists of names, strips all the vowels, creates "same or similar" lists from that, (substituting any consonant/s that could possibly have even remotely similar phonetics) then re-inserts all possible vowel combinations. I just could not believe my poor little eyes when I read some documentation and samples from a soundex run. Their reasoning was that "those middle-eastern names can be spelled in various ways, so we need to be able to catch the known terrorists, even if the name is mis-spelled in our list." It ends up matching some wildly different names. Of course, when it initially grounded scores of innocent passengers, the "powers that be" refused to let those people know how their names got on the list, and refused to assist them in being cleared from the no-fly list.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Too many of us still think we live in democracies....

Well, they've very flawed.
But seriously, dong, what would you wish to see different?
You could take this a thousand directions. I want to know your direction.
What would make our systems democracies?