Bush: foreign policy nitwit, economic wizard

madame_zora

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Yay, a trifecta!
 

rob_just_rob

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How about you would be FUCKED if the terrorists take the advantage of our leaving to kill your family! Haven't you seen that there havent been any attacks on U.S. soil BECAUSE we have been in Iraq? That IS the reason for no attacks.

Proof, please.

Or evidence, even.

Or... oh, never mind. You're just ranting.
 

B_Kshelby67

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My opinion, takes bits from what others have said, but I'd rather not ruffle feathers or quote anyone. I'd rather just say it straightforward.

This war was unnessasary. Bush used words to make the public feel as if they had to fight, that if we didn't, 9/11 would happen over again. People were scared and had never expected anything like 9/11 to happen. Effective words like fear, terror, "weapons of mass destruction", evildooers....it created such a dramatic world in our heads. Bush made it seem like Saddam was responsible for 9/11, and that the only way we could ever be safe was to tear the city apart looking for his arsenal, and impose the form of government we feel is right on a society that was not ready. If our attack was because of the leader of the country, why don't we do this for every country that is under the power of a dictatorship? Think about everything else that is going on in the world. If we are going to be the enforcers of this good vs evil, slave vs freedom type of world, then why aren't we consistent?

If our attack was about WMDs, then why didn't we attempt the same with North Korea? Could it be that N. Korea could level America if we tried that type of bullying? Why do we feel as if we are the only ones that can have such extraordinary weapons?

The Anerican government decided to do what it wanted, despite the fact that the UN was opposed. Why bother being in the UN if the United part is so subjective?
The state of the Middle East is in chaos. We have only opened the door to more fundementalists. It wasn't a country that attacked us, it was a group. Now, this group can easily take advantage of the weak power that is established in Iraq, which can now be aptly named Afghanistan II.
In the eyes of the rest of the planet, we are just seen as drunkin assholes who live in excess and fried food. The majority of the people here don't even know anything else that is going on in the country or the world if it doesn't directly effect them. Bush made it seem ok to attack Iraq, because he painted a picture that made it feel like the entire culture was full of hethens who lived like animals in the desert and hated our country because we were "free". The public seemed to then think that everyone of middle eastern decent deserved to be treated as such.
While our eyes were glazed over, this administration took the steps to take away this "freedom", but in the name of "freedom". There is no more freedom of speech, no more free press, a person can no longer educate themselves on taboo topics without raising a red flag. This so called free country has managed to get into every corner of our lives, and see everything we do. It is fucking scary.
This tangent aside, in my own life I struggle. Taxes, health care, rent, gas, food. I have no money to do anything. I had a good 2 months in the middle of the winter where I had to turn the heat off and shower at the YMCA every day. I can't afford to finish grad school, I can't afford to have any sort of fun. I work my ass off though. How is it fair that someone who makes 3 times as much as I do gets a break and I have to eat oatmeal for a month? How is it fair that pharmacutical companies can charge me $100 a month for the meds I need? How is it fair that I can no longer even go to the doctors I need to, meaning basically I will never recover from what I am afflictted with?
And I know it is much worse for over half of Americans. I at least have an education and a job. I can't imagine not having such luxuries. I am so lucky to have what I do, but this administration has made life for every American more difficult, and tarnished whatever respect we had.
 

madame_zora

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What took you two so long to join us?

I feel like such a trendsetter now. :biggrin1:


No shit dude, I'm going to start paying more attention!

kshelby67, that was a beautiful post. I know there are a lot of people who "get it", I'm still so shocked that so many do not. Thanks for sharing your point of view, and using your own words. Much appreciated.
 

B_Kshelby67

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No shit dude, I'm going to start paying more attention!

kshelby67, that was a beautiful post. I know there are a lot of people who "get it", I'm still so shocked that so many do not. Thanks for sharing your point of view, and using your own words. Much appreciated.
Thank you so much.
Looking back at what I wrote, I am a bit all over the place, but it is almost impossible to get everything out without writing a novel. This stuff gets me so so worked up that I feel I have to at least touch on every point.
 

DC_DEEP

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You want me to respond to this ^ shit? So what if you're a veteran? That doesn't mean that you know everything about the military!
No, it doesn't mean I know everything about the military. But it does mean I know more than you about the military, and it does mean that I have perspective that you don't.
I appreciate all of our vets,
Obviously, you don't. Try being real instead of paying lip service. Putting a stupid fucking yellow ribbon on the car daddy bought for you does not equate to supporting our troops or our veterans.[/quote]but you seem to be condemning our current troops. [/quote]Quote me. Point out ONE SINGLE POST where I condemned our troops.
You would "feel betrayed" if the U.S. didn't pull you out?
Damned right I would, if they left me over there, risking my life, fighting a useless battle in a country where we have no business in the first place.
How about you would be FUCKED if the terrorists take the advantage of our leaving to kill your family! Newsflash: my family is not in Iraq. Please explain your reasoning.
Haven't you seen that there havent been any attacks on U.S. soil BECAUSE we have been in Iraq? That IS the reason for no attacks.
Can you support this with a citation? And can you explain the dearth of attacks, with the exception of the World Trade Center, BEFORE we attacked and occupied Iraq?
The last thing I will say in this thread is that I don't want the U.S. to pull out because the terrorists would WIN, in fact, they pretty much already have won, because the aim of any terrorist orgainization is recognition of a cause and media attention.
No, child, the terrorists WON when we invaded Iraq under false pretenses.
You tell us to pack our toys, but it's not as simple as that. Basically what you said in your last post is "FUCK THE IRAQIS, I DONT CARE ABOUT THE WORLD OR OTHER PEOPLE". Justify that if you want, but like I said, I won't look at this thread anymore because it's stupid. Welcome to my ignore list, bitch.
There ya go, that's the way to support and respect our veterans. You are a fine piece of work.
 

Full_Phil

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You are so blind by anger---You are such a sucker.

What if this were actually true? What does that say? A clearly intelligent person who has continually shown both the deep perception and wry humor of maturity has somehow become irrational and gullible all of a sudden. Why? Do you attribute it to menopause? Or are there perhaps some environmental problems such as GW and/or cancerous air that has affected the mind? Or has perhaps the environment become laden with the weight and stench of such things as right wing religious hatred, excessive seperation between the haves and have nots, and policies of government that have led our country into a ridiculous place in history given our potential strength? I'm angry, but not blind. I am amazed at stupidity, but not duped. The people who blindly follow those who would take us down the path to frustration so widely felt that really dangerous upheaval takes place are the suckers. Thank God we are not suckers enough that we ARE angry. If you think about it, we can not be both.

I was in a room last night with a lot of people who support bush, or should I say USED to support him. Those who still do are becoming one of our most visible minorities. Well, at least you admit that this slide taking place that has made some of us angry and "suckers" didn't all begin on his watch---
 

Wyldgusechaz

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What if this were actually true? What does that say? A clearly intelligent person who has continually shown both the deep perception and wry humor of maturity has somehow become irrational and gullible all of a sudden. Why? Do you attribute it to menopause? Or are there perhaps some environmental problems such as GW and/or cancerous air that has affected the mind? Or has perhaps the environment become laden with the weight and stench of such things as right wing religious hatred, excessive seperation between the haves and have nots, and policies of government that have led our country into a ridiculous place in history given our potential strength? I'm angry, but not blind. I am amazed at stupidity, but not duped. The people who blindly follow those who would take us down the path to frustration so widely felt that really dangerous upheaval takes place are the suckers. Thank God we are not suckers enough that we ARE angry. If you think about it, we can not be both.

I was in a room last night with a lot of people who support bush, or should I say USED to support him. Those who still do are becoming one of our most visible minorities. Well, at least you admit that this slide taking place that has made some of us angry and "suckers" didn't all begin on his watch---

Read my original post. I GAVE PRESIDENT BUSH AN F. Thats a failure, ZERO. He is a failure. I did bump him to a D minus. Thats still a failing grade and would classify him as one of the worst presidents ever. How anyone can find me to be a Bush supporter is beyond me. Anyone who has is wacky.

Something he did though has proven to be quite amazing. He cut taxes, for everyone, and tax revenues went up!!!!! Think about that for a second. YOUR taxes are lower, and the gov has more money. Thats wondrous. I did not think that possible but that needs to be acknowledged. If people can't see that, then they deserve to be angry and miserable. The polar opposite of that is to raise taxes and have less money for government. I guess thats what Lex and MZ want. Why? I haven't a clue.

I guess people want to believe that 4.5% unemployment is bad. In truth it is as good as it can be. Are people underemployed? Yes. Are there people chronically unemployed? Yes. But what would you rather have a 7% UE rate and the same folks under and chronically employed? I take 4.5%, you can have 7%.

The war costs $90 billion a year. Conclusively, without question, in black and white. This in an economy that produces $11 TRILLION!!!!!! in goods, wages, and services, our GDP. $90 billion is the locomotive pulling $11 trillion???!!! Ridiculous. If your household makes $50000, that in ratio is $350. Your computer you are using now cost more than $350 and I doubt it was a huge burden to swallow for most. If a person wants to argue 2+2=4 and say that isn't so, they will be endlessly angry and frustrated.

The problem with the war is it ISN"T affecting people. Its sterile for the most part. Only a select poorer group is paying tha cost in bone and blood. Nothing could be more wrong but thats another post.

The world is changing and changing fast. There is no one to blame. People can't react to the changes quickly so they get mad. For example: Daimler Benz just gave its Chrysler dvision away. Gave it away, no actually Daimler paid a private equity group to take it off their hands. This PE group will have to viciously cut costs and jobs to make Chysler well again. Michigan and Ohio will suffer again. Is it President Bush's fault that we won't buy Chrysler products? The line workers who are going to have to eat a monster pay/benefit cut will be pissed off but Daimler Benz lost over $45 billion dollars trying to make Chrysler work.

That thing that is so sad is that the people who lash out at my posts do not understand why things are the way they are. They don't know how gov works, why health care costs are high, why jobs are lost. They want to blame someon because their world is changing, they don't like the changes, but they aren't in a position to benefit from the changes. You can put Hilary in office, I think she would be a good choice but she can't stop the world from changing.

Everyone forgets, the World Trade Center attacks were planned while Bill Clinton was in office. Bill couldn't stop certain people from hating us. Thats the world we live in.

Edit: I would wager a ton of dough that less than 5% of Americans know who Angela Merker is, Sarkosy is, Gordon Brown is. There was a huge election in France a couple weeks ago. Anyone know who ran? Why? Who is Segalene Royal? Boy? Girl? I promise that no one here other than those who live in those countries can name both the leaders of Canada and Mexico. And we live right next door.!!

We get mad cuz we don't take the time to learn.
 

Full_Phil

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Needless to say, Madame Zora needs no help from me, but my questions were obviously in reaction to your minimalization of her responses, as well as a statement about my own similar frustrations.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Needless to say, Madame Zora needs no help from me, but my questions were obviously in reaction to your minimalization of her responses, as well as a statement about my own similar frustrations.

OK Phil you have the chair. How would you solve your (and her) frustrations? Pretend you are a Chrysler line worker and your pay is gonna bet trimmed. How would you do it? You are a Chrysler execuative. How ill you save your workers economic lives and careers?

Minimalize? She called me a liar, a fucker, a moron. She said if the war ended there would be 12% unemployment. She put words in my mouth I never even imagined. In this case her emotions are out of control and she does not understand the world around her. She wants 2+2=5 or 6 or a 1000. Go back and read what we said. I posted the truth. Find one lie in what I wrote.
 

madame_zora

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Thank you so much.
Looking back at what I wrote, I am a bit all over the place, but it is almost impossible to get everything out without writing a novel. This stuff gets me so so worked up that I feel I have to at least touch on every point.


Yes, you are all over the place- because that is the nature of the subject, and anyone who understands that will have no other choice. I would just love to see a resurgence of interest in domestic affairs. The war is a shit sandwich, those who intended to get wealthy off of it already have, in abundance, there's no reason left to continue killing "ours" along with "theirs".

I think we will have to maintain some sort of samll presence there at least for a while, we owe them that for elevating the mess to the level to which it has come, but we can't be expected to remain indefinitely fighting their civil war. I think we will need to seriously refocus our intentions and drastically reduce our committment of troops.

How quickly things change. This isn't the world I grew up in, and I don't think our nation would survive another republican monarchy and still be recognisable as the Land of the Free. I had an easier time supporting myself at 16 years old than I have now, and I'm NOT crazy! The economy isn't in my head- it in my state. Oh, what is the big news on my local channel tonight? They've just passed a new ordinance regulating what strippers may wear on stage after midnight, and how far away customers must stand to tip them! That's right- THAT'S how my tax dollars are being spent, in a state with high unemployment, drug trafficking and murder rates- they're worried about strippers! Thanks Ohio, that's my goddamned source of income you motherfuckers! Try fighting crime instead of bothering people who aren't bothering you, who are at least working for a goddamned living.

Ahem. I digress. But not really.

We could easily reach a point where criticising our government is no longer legal. Woe to all of those who would concern themselves with "manners" and "being polite", they will be the first to cave in, thinking it just a good idea to be forced to be nice, if the heathens won't do it on their own. What they'll sell with their good intentions is their own freedom, and yours and mine as well.
 

dreamer20

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The problem with the war is it ISN"T affecting people. Its sterile for the most part. Only a select poorer group is paying tha cost in bone and blood. Nothing could be more wrong but thats another post.

That thing that is so sad is that the people who lash out at my posts do not understand why things are the way they are.


The Iraq War isn't affecting people? Were you very sleepy when you typed that?

 

Full_Phil

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OK Phil you have the chair. How would you solve your (and her) frustrations? Pretend you are a Chrysler line worker and your pay is gonna get trimmed. How would you do it? You are a Chrysler executive. How will you save your workers economic lives and careers?

Dangerous to ask me to do this, but I've got a little time this morning and here are just a few ideas---

1. Ask EVERY organization out there to make getting out the vote of their consitutents their primary concern, and thereby let whatever the majority really is finally reflect its true desires in election results.

2. Work to create legislation that allows shareholders to have a stronger say on the levels and sources of executive incomes/benefits/perks with one goal (among others, perhaps) of returning the ratio of CEO compensation to skilled worker comp back to 1970 levels (which I believe were plenty generous enough.

3. I could only do the following if I were President, but I would use the office to LEAD, ie--- encourage people to vote for effective change in the areas of Education and Health Care.

4. While this one is shaky, I think I would reduce the term of President to one(!), so that one's legacy would be determined by what one accomplished rather than who one pleased. So much bull shit could be eliminated (IMHO) if leaders were not always worrying about the next election. Not sure yet what I would do about Congressional terms.

5. I would talk to Iran, and also understand that the world we live in is far different than what the current folks in power believe. To this extent, I would understand that we live in a global economy where we will have to share superpowerdom by necessity.

6. I would seperate Church and State

7. As to Iraq, I would admit the mistake but NOT leave piecemeal. While the war there in both its victories and defeats has become the greatest recruiting tool for terrorists the world has seen in many a moon, we are there and have done what we have done. I would defend our own entrenchment there while undertaking a transfer of responsibility in whatever way we still can. If the Sunnis and the Shiites want to kill each other, we have no business trying to stop that.

8. I would not give carte blanche to Israel, but understand that Iran will have an A-bomb in 2 years and will consider bombing the Israelis. Hence #5.

9. I would focus on our problems at home as opposed to problems abroad. That is a ridiculously general statement, but i make it anyway.

10. I would seek ways to rid ourselves of dependency on oil for once and for all.

11. I would NOT care that the above is childishly naive! I would NOT care if any of the above stepped on some interest group's toes! I would use the bully pulpit to champion educating all our citizens, making our economy a system that creates jobs and opportunities and making being a decent human being more attractive than being a thug.

In re-reading what I wrote above, I have had to laugh at how sophomoric it all sounds, but why not? Raggedy Andy for President! Where is Pogo when you need him? In general, what has to happen is a swing back from the "too far" we've gone to the Right, and return some degrees of governmental controls, higher taxes and protectionsist policies. I'm basically against these things, but we've just gone too far in their elimination from the standpoint of the good of our populace IMHO.
 

B_Kshelby67

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Edit: I would wager a ton of dough that less than 5% of Americans know who Angela Merker is, Sarkosy is, Gordon Brown is. There was a huge election in France a couple weeks ago. Anyone know who ran? Why? Who is Segalene Royal? Boy? Girl? I promise that no one here other than those who live in those countries can name both the leaders of Canada and Mexico. And we live right next door.!!

While I'm not familiar with Angela Merker, I do know that Angela Merkel is the Chancellor of Germany
Also, Sarkosy is a no, while Sarkozy is the current President of France
Gorden Brown = British PM
French election was between Sarkosy and Royal, who is a female. Royal concentrated more on family and social type issues (read: environment, family, education), and less of forgein policy and financial. Sarkosy has very controvercial beliefs, like wanting to have more of a bond between the church and the state. He has a tendency to say things that make him sound like an asshole and piss off the civil rights world.
Leader of Canada= Stephan Harper is the pm, though they have a monarchy in which queen elizabeth II is head of state.
Mexico= President Felipe Calderon
I am an American, now where is my money sir?
Don't think that just because you know such huge events that go on in the world, that no one else does.
 

B_Kshelby67

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Oh, what is the big news on my local channel tonight? They've just passed a new ordinance regulating what strippers may wear on stage after midnight, and how far away customers must stand to tip them! That's right- THAT'S how my tax dollars are being spent, in a state with high unemployment, drug trafficking and murder rates- they're worried about strippers! Thanks Ohio, that's my goddamned source of income you motherfuckers! Try fighting crime instead of bothering people who aren't bothering you, who are at least working for a goddamned living.

This is a huge peeve of mine. Rhode Island is about as corrupt as they come, and the amount of money wasted is just extraordinary. Our taxes are so frigging high, and our deficit is huge and keeps growing. The state somehow sees it ok to pay thousands of dollars to friends of the governer to do things like crosswalk monitor, and typist jobs. I work in the field of developmental disabilities, and experience first hand how these things effect the people that really need it the most. It took several rallys, phone calls, personally going in front of the financial board to plead that they don't cut 40% of funding to day rograms, leaving so many at home to sit there and waste away. I also make less than 25,000 a year, and I have a degree, and a lot of experience. It doesn't seem fair. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, and I don't want to work outside this field, but it is very hard work, and getting my ass kicked sometimes is hard to justify such a low wage, and being in management, I make much more than my staff do.
outside of my own objectives, everyone is struggling. Money gets wasted so much on such unimportant stuff. The ones who really need that money suffer.
The ACI is overflowing with prisoners. RI has decided that a good idea to solve it is to put people in home confinement ( our system here is just so strict too....oh wait no), and let them off on parole early. Um how about not throwing joe shmo is prison for smoking a joint after work. that might work a bit better than letting a rapist out without counseling.
Ugh it gets too easy to digress...
 

rob_just_rob

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This is a huge peeve of mine. Rhode Island is about as corrupt as they come, and the amount of money wasted is just extraordinary. Our taxes are so frigging high, and our deficit is huge and keeps growing. The state somehow sees it ok to pay thousands of dollars to friends of the governer to do things like crosswalk monitor, and typist jobs. I work in the field of developmental disabilities, and experience first hand how these things effect the people that really need it the most. It took several rallys, phone calls, personally going in front of the financial board to plead that they don't cut 40% of funding to day rograms, leaving so many at home to sit there and waste away. I also make less than 25,000 a year, and I have a degree, and a lot of experience. It doesn't seem fair. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, and I don't want to work outside this field, but it is very hard work, and getting my ass kicked sometimes is hard to justify such a low wage, and being in management, I make much more than my staff do.
outside of my own objectives, everyone is struggling. Money gets wasted so much on such unimportant stuff. The ones who really need that money suffer.

Well said. I agree.

http://www.lpsg.org/et-cetera-et-cetera/50079-can-muslims-be-good-americans-2.html#post826499