Bush offered biblical rationale for invading Iraq to Chirac in 2003

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Calboner, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. Calboner

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    Here is the opening of an interesting article recently published in Free Inquiry by James Haught of the Charleston Gazette (WV):
    From further on in the article:
    Read the rest of the article here.

    Pithy though I find Haught's statement in the second quotation, it contains nothing that was not a matter of public record in the year 2000. What provides occasion for dismay is the continual revelation of the actual consequences of Bush's smugly ignorant religious view of the world.
     
  2. vince

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    Why didn't Chirac expose him at the time and stop that ignorant fool from squandering American and Iraqi lives and treasure?
     
  3. Calboner

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    You ask, in effect, why the president of France did not betray the contents of a telephone conversation made under conditions of secrecy with the president of the US in order to undermine the latter in his own country. Let's just say that such a move would not have paid off.
     
  4. vince

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    Perhaps, but isn't that what he's done anyhow? Betrayed a secret? Couldn't he have at least phoned Tony Blair and other Coalition of the Willing partners and said, "Hey wait a minute, this guy is cracked."?
     
  5. Bbucko

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    Anyone remember the extreme animosity between the US and France leading up to the Iraqi invasion? Freedom Fries ring any bells?
     
  6. SilverTrain

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    Unpublished headline from 2003:

    Bush Agog over Gog and Magog
     
  7. Calboner

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    No. The point of the secrecy was not "I'm speaking to you in confidence lest the world know what an ignorant jackass I am" but "I'm speaking to you in confidence lest any information about our conversation undermine my planning for war." The conditions that made secrecy necessary are no longer extant. Disclosing the contents of the conversation now is no more betraying a secret than any of the disclosures that members of the Bush administration made to Bob Woodward when he was writing his books on the Bush presidency were a betrayal of secrecy.

    Why are you arguing this bizarre idea, anyway? Are you trying to shift responsibility for the Bush disaster from the US to France?
     
  8. Calboner

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    :eek: Oh, my Gog!
     
  9. B_Nick8

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    What didn't Bush find a biblical rationale for? :rolleyes:
     
  10. dreamer20

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    The problem faced by Chirac would not be Bush alone, but the additional opinions of respected intelligent persons, such as Colin Powell, Dick Cheney, Condoleeza Rice and George Tenet who made a very convincing case for the Iraq War that was not biblical based.

    http://www.lpsg.org/2133915-post89.html

    Furthermore in that post 9/11 pro-Bush atmosphere had Chirac mentioned he thought Bush was a crackpot due to Bush's belief that he did God's will in fighting this fight, the War would not have been stopped. His supporters would quite likely sing a few stanzas of "God Bless America" and the GOP's smear machine would've depicted Chirac as a demented atheist supporter of terrorists maligning G.W.Bush in order to undermine the efforts of this "man of God" to keep America safe.
     
    #10 dreamer20, Oct 12, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  11. vince

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    Well I hadn't thought of that...

    But it just seems too bizarre. Ok, so you are the President France and Stupid George rings you up to convince you to join him in a war that God has told he must start in the Middle East because Gog and Magog, Satan's agents of the Apocalypse are on the loose again. What do you do?

    Secrets or not, it's time to call the nice men in the white suits to help poor George. Or phone Daddy Bush or James Baker and tell them their boy has gone off the deep end. What is the more irresponsible course of action? Expose crazy George or let him go off on his crusade killing thousands of people?

    Sure, maybe no world leader would ever trust you again. But how many of them are telling you crazy things about the biblical visions they are having?
     
  12. Flashy

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    strange, that only one "source" is reporting this and how everyone else is ignoring it.

    I believe Bush is a religious loony...but i will wait until i see actual proof of this particular event, other than the third hand and totally unproven account by professor romer.

    how exactly, did the Presidential staff, take a confidential phone call from the president of the united states, tell the contents to a professor, in *SWITZERLAND* nonetheless, to have him "analyze" them?

    could they not find a french government theological expert, or use the internet to look up gog and magog? The French have some of the best intelligence services in the world, one would have to believe somebody could have briefed Chirac, instead of going to a university professor in Switzerland.

    also, this is not some new thing you have uncovered...it has been around for a while on all the loonier sites, like alternet

    Bush's Shocking Biblical Prophecy Emerges: God Wants to "Erase" Mid-East Enemies "Before a New Age Begins" | Politics | AlterNet

    i see absolutely now proof to this.

    it is in a journalist's book about an alleged conversation with Chirac on the matter.

    Chirac has not confirmed this publicly *EVER*

    this is Hearsay...nothing more.

    bring me proof and confirmation from Chirac, and i will believe it.

    there is a reason this is on only the nuttier web pages...

    don't you think if there was a chance to prove that Bush in fact did do this, it may have made the NYTimes?

    this nonsense has been around for awhile.

    bring me proof.
     
  13. Calboner

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    Well said. Thank you.
    You seem to have some very unrealistic ideas about the political process and the powers of ex-presidents. As for W.'s "craziness," a.k.a. evangelical Christianity, it was and still is shared by tens of millions of voters in this country.
     
  14. vince

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    Not to me they didn't. I never bought one word of it and I'm no genius.

    You are probably right. Except that it wasn't "God Bless America". It was "The Battle Hymn of the Republic", as I recall. It was a chilling moment that morning in Washington Cathedral.
     
  15. dreamer20

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    I posted a thread regarding the Ezekiel prophecies in Etc. in June 2006, but I wasn't aware G.W.Bush mentioned this to Chirac. I was disturbed by the fact that evangelical Christians viewed Hitler's extermination of the Jews as being a God-endorsed punishment visited upon them for not being Christians. And a similar punishment was to be meted out upon Jews to fulfill a future prophecy.

    http://www.lpsg.org/29086-who-created-these-prophecies.html
     
    #15 dreamer20, Oct 12, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
  16. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    Speaking of the Bible... hope this isn't too much off-topic, but here is some new conservative "art" depicting a radiant Jesus holding the U.S. Constitution:

    McNaughton Fine Art
     
  17. B_Nick8

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    I've just got to get a copy of that beautiful painting!
     
  18. Calboner

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    According to an article published in the magazine Allez Savoir! in April of 2007 (link to PDF), Professor Römer said that the member of President Chirac's staff who phoned him to request that he provide a written account of Gog and Magog told him that it was needed because President Bush had invoked those figures in a conversation with President Chirac.

    I have only skimmed the article, but I gather that it is an attempt to piece together what Bush's thinking about Gog and Magog in relation to the planned invasion of Iraq might have been.

    In March of 2009, Jean-Claude Maurice published a book in which he recounts (or prints? I don't know if the book consists of transcripts of interviews or of narrative accounts of them) a conversation with President Chirac in which the latter attributed to President Bush the statements quoted in Haught's article. It was the publication of this book that started the story, which seems to have first appeared in English-speaking reportage in July. (I found Haught's original article in the Charleston Gazette for July 22, 2009 here. I found the link to the Allez Savoir! article in this opinion piece by Andrew Brown of the Guardian.)

    I can't find any reportage offering confirmation or disconfirmation of Maurice's claims. I agree that the lack of confirmation and the lack of reportage in reputable news media are grounds for doubt of those claims. But to hold that Römer simply lied about the phone call from the president's office and that Maurice lied about a conversation with Chirac in order to expand on Römer's lie seems itself rather improbable to me, especially in view of what we already know about Bush's outlook -- e.g., how Secretary Rumsfeld packaged his briefings for the president with biblical quotations.
     
  19. Flashy

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    regardless of Bush's views, or how they packaged his briefings, there is nothing anyone could tell me, that would be plausible as to why a direct assistant to President Chirac, would call a professor in switzerland (not one in France) for research on a rather common biblical phrase/tale/chapter/characters, then tell that Professor that those comments were spoken directly by the president of the united states to the president of france...

    who would do such a thing?

    there is nothing i can think of which would make that event even remotely possible.

    when you think about, it is completely preposterous.

    go outside the government, and instead of handling it "in house" or going to a french scholar, and asking for a report on the specifics of this aspect of the bible to be prepared for perusal for a "government study" or protocol or something, instead, go to professor in switzerland, ask him to prepare a study on this element of religious apocalyptic theory, because the President of the United States has told the President of France that we are on the verge of a biblical apocalypse...and by the way...this is classified...

    then the guy goes to a magazine and blabs about it.

    i simply do not buy it.

    governments at the highest levels are absolutely ferociously secretive, and for good reason in most cases.

    no way that event happens like that.

    as for those things seeming improbable...i do not see it as improbable...Maurice is trying to sell a book and Romer was writing articles apparently...

    both are nothing but hearsay.

    at least with Romer, there is proof that he did write the paper, but there is nothing to suggest that they said that Bush said "this and this" in regards to the Apocalypse/Gog/Magog/ etc.

    i do not know why it would have been related to him at all in that regard.

    even more puzzling, is why this would not be considered privileged information.

    the whole thing is very fishy.
     
  20. MarkLondon

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    Ooh! Do you think it's available on black velvet?
     
    #20 MarkLondon, Oct 12, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
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