Bush on torture 2006

[madame_zora]

We'll just have to agree, Jana, that to each of us our reality is the real one. The difference, unfortunately, is that I am willing to calmly leave you to your reality while you are determined to either convert me to it or to totally destroy mine.

Sorry, this has long been the cop-out of the right. Moral high-ground? I know you're serious, but it's still just as pathetic as it has always been before. You're plenty willing to take shots at those you "simply disagree" with, but when have you ever offfered up a defensible argument for your position? I only asked you what it was.

We DON'T agree that reality is subjective. That's bullshit. What is occurring before our eyes IS occurring, how we feel about it is subjective. BIG difference. Sorry, even Bill Clinton lost me on demanding the definition of "is".
We don't live in separate realities! We occupy the same space/time continuum, and when people can't agree that 2+2=4 (or the value of pi), that's a sad state of affairs. This isn't partisanship, it's disgust with the concept that we should be open to interpreting this administration's illegal activities as something other than illegal, just because they claim they're doing it in the name of God. That just makes it blasphemous in addition to illegal.

I'm not an idiot. I simply disagree. That I'm not willing to type pages of angst against the left speaks not against my stand but to my habit of simple language that doesn't need to be repeated ad nauseum.

Well yeah, and if you present no opinion at all but just cap down everyone else's that kind of puts you in the cat-bird seat, doesn't it?

Trust me, I've got it out of my system.

 

[rob_just_rob]

The really wretched part about the whole 'war on terror' for the rest of the world is that we (our governments, that is) are compelled to get in line to support it. There are 3 groups you can belong to:

1) The 'blood' group - the ones doing the actual fighting. This includes the U.K., Australia, Poland, Canada, and other NATO members. Those countries are laying their soldiers lives down to stay in GWB's good books.

2) The 'money' group - the ones financing this whole fiasco. China and Japan were at one point buying a billion dollars worth of U.S. treasuries a day. They're the reason that Bush hasn't had to raise taxes. After all, if you run a deficit, someone still has to lend you the money to do it.

3) The 'moral support' group. Remember the impressive list of countries which supported the war in Iraq? Remember how many actually contributed troops to the "coalition of the willing"? Being in the range that made up the difference in numbers between those two groups was, IMO, the best place to be.

The point I'm getting at is that you have to be in one of those three groups in order to avoid being on GWB's bad side (for example, Canada-US trade disputes have mysteriously been resolved concurrently with Canada taking a greater role in Afghanistan*). As a result, there's nobody left to stand up for human rights. The Russians might make noises about it, but they have their own 'insurgent' issues to worry about. So the only way the torture issue is going to get resolved is internally within the USA. Nobody else is in the international community is in a position to put any pressure on the USA - they're all marching in lockstep. And hosting secret prisons.

Damn, I miss the Cold War.



* and concurrently with our soldiers starting to drop like flies.

 

[Pecker]

Sorry, this has long been the cop-out of the right. Moral high-ground? I know you're serious, but it's still just as pathetic as it has always been before. You're plenty willing to take shots at those you "simply disagree" with, but when have you ever offfered up a defensible argument for your position? I only asked you what it was.

We DON'T agree that reality is subjective. That's bullshit. What is occurring before our eyes IS occurring, how we feel about it is subjective. BIG difference. Sorry, even Bill Clinton lost me on demanding the definition of "is".
We don't live in separate realities! We occupy the same space/time continuum, and when people can't agree that 2+2=4 (or the value of pi), that's a sad state of affairs. This isn't partisanship, it's disgust with the concept that we should be open to interpreting this administration's illegal activities as something other than illegal, just because they claim they're doing it in the name of God. That just makes it blasphemous in addition to illegal.



Well yeah, and if you present no opinion at all but just cap down everyone else's that kind of puts you in the cat-bird seat, doesn't it?

Trust me, I've got it out of my system.

What's my sin? I happen to like a guy whom you hate. Yet I have continued to like you.

So much for the tolerance you espouse. I shall personally darken your reality no longer. That's a promise.

 

[Freddie53]

I am new to this thread and haven't read all the posts. Every president has tried something that the Sumpreme Court ruled that it was a no-no.

Forget personalities. We must follow our Supreme Court on this. Terrorists will have to count the same as prinsoners of war. The cost of not doing so it too great. It ruins our reputation in the world not to accept the Supreme Court ruling.

I like both Pecker and Zora.

This has nothing to do with personalities to me. It is about the Geneva accords we have signed and consittutional law we live under.

George will just have to suck it up and follow international law even though he disagrees with it. It is the best long term choice for our nation.

We can win this battle over rights of terroriests only to lose greatly later in how other nations treat our prisoners.

We have to look ahead and the long term effects, not short term gains.

 

[joyboytoy79]

I think we're starting to loose the point around here. Or at least it's getting diluted.

If I, or anyone else was really most concerned with why we hate Bush, as opposed to the attrocities that are happening under his command, i think there would be a lot mud slinging. I mean, there's a lot of mud to throw at the guy. His conviction of felony cocaine possession charges springs to the forefront of my mind... Anyway, that's not really happening here.

Mostly we're talking about why it is anacceptable that our president, whomever he should be, condones 1)the suspension of habeas corpus 2) the torture of those who are being held without charge.

I admit. I don't like the guy. But that's not what the issue is for me. The issue is that people are being deprived of their freedoms. Why are we engaged in Opperation Iraqi Liberation if we're going deprive even one of iraqi of basic liberties? It flies in the face of reason.

 

[rob_just_rob]

I mean, there's a lot of mud to throw at the guy. His conviction of felony cocaine possession charges springs to the forefront of my mind... Anyway, that's not really happening here.

I personally couldn't care less about the cocaine thing, a malum prohibitum activity if there ever was one. The stealing and insider trading when he was in the oil biz is something I dislike... the fleecing of the taxpayers for his own gain when he was in the baseball biz is another thing. The lying and general malfeasance during his presidency has been gone over many times.

But as you say, we digress. :smile:

I admit. I don't like the guy. But that's not what the issue is for me. The issue is that people are being deprived of their freedoms. Why are we engaged in Opperation Iraqi Liberation if we're going deprive even one of iraqi of basic liberties? It flies in the face of reason.

One of the tricks the conservative propaganda machine uses is assigning names to projects that imply the complete opposite to what the actual goal of the project is. It goes hand in hand with the practice of repeating a lie over and over until it starts to stick.

We (you) are not liberating the Iraqis. At best, the country will be run by a Saddam clone, or a group similar to the house of Saud. The new ruler will run the country with an iron fist, because he'll have to to stay in power. The civil rights violations going on in the US now are nothing compared to what is going on in Iraq. And will continue to go on for some time.

You can't topple a government by force and then expect democracy will somehow take hold in a place where it's never been before. Particularly when a civil war is going on. Whoever wins the civil war is going to do some serious purging - enough to make Nicole Ritchie look like an amateur - when all is said and done.

No, this is all about placing a pro-Western despot on the Iraqi throne, and propping him up until he can stand on his own two feet. After all... democracies have a bad habit of changing their friends at whim. Remember Operation Ajax?

 

[joyboytoy79]

I personally couldn't care less about the cocaine thing, a malum prohibitum activity if there ever was one. The stealing and insider trading when he was in the oil biz is something I dislike... the fleecing of the taxpayers for his own gain when he was in the baseball biz is another thing. The lying and general malfeasance during his presidency has been gone over many times.

But as you say, we digress. :smile:



One of the tricks the conservative propaganda machine uses is assigning names to projects that imply the complete opposite to what the actual goal of the project is. It goes hand in hand with the practice of repeating a lie over and over until it starts to stick.

We (you) are not liberating the Iraqis. At best, the country will be run by a Saddam clone, or a group similar to the house of Saud. The new ruler will run the country with an iron fist, because he'll have to to stay in power. The civil rights violations going on in the US now are nothing compared to what is going on in Iraq. And will continue to go on for some time.

You can't topple a government by force and then expect democracy will somehow take hold in a place where it's never been before. Particularly when a civil war is going on. Whoever wins the civil war is going to do some serious purging - enough to make Nicole Ritchie look like an amateur - when all is said and done.

No, this is all about placing a pro-Western despot on the Iraqi throne, and propping him up until he can stand on his own two feet. After all... democracies have a bad habit of changing their friends at whim. Remember Operation Ajax?

OK, great points rob. But, uh, what has this to do with the US torturing people, or holding them captive without charges?

 

[coopturn]

OK, great points rob. But, uh, what has this to do with the US torturing people, or holding them captive without charges?

Could someone please offer some evidence, i.e. proof, of torture at Guantanamo? This has been thrououghly examined, most recently by Ted Koppel on the Discovery Channel, and Koppel concluded that there was no evidence of torture there.

 

[rob_just_rob]

OK, great points rob. But, uh, what has this to do with the US torturing people, or holding them captive without charges?

The point is that the US is torturing people to ensure the survival of the provisional Iraqi government (among other reasons), which will then proceed to torture more people as it attempts to consolidate its power. In other words, there is no point to what the so-called coalition forces are doing. Unless you accept that the war is about oil, settling old scores, or deflecting attention away from other issues.

You said

The issue is that people are being deprived of their freedoms. Why are we engaged in Opperation Iraqi Liberation if we're going deprive even one of iraqi of basic liberties? It flies in the face of reason.

And I agree with the last sentence. Expect a LOT of torture to be conducted in Iraq - where there are even fewer people watching than in Eastern Europe and Cuba.

 

[Shelby]

Don't worry, us stupids will do our best to defend the way of life you take for granted.

I know, you didn't ask.

 

[rob_just_rob]

Don't worry, us stupids will do our best to defend the way of life you take for granted.

I know, you didn't ask.

Who are you talking to?

 

[Shelby]

Who are you talking to?

All of you folks who knee jerk assume our presently elected representatives are inherently evil.

 

[rob_just_rob]

All of you folks who knee jerk assume our presently elected representatives are inherently evil.

Thanks for clarifying.:fing02:

Better talk loud, there's a lot of us out there. :biggrin1:

 

[Shelby]

Sorry, this has long been the cop-out of the right. Moral high-ground? I know you're serious, but it's still just as pathetic as it has always been before. You're plenty willing to take shots at those you "simply disagree" with, but when have you ever offfered up a defensible argument for your position? I only asked you what it was.

We DON'T agree that reality is subjective. That's bullshit. What is occurring before our eyes IS occurring, how we feel about it is subjective. BIG difference. Sorry, even Bill Clinton lost me on demanding the definition of "is".
We don't live in separate realities! We occupy the same space/time continuum, and when people can't agree that 2+2=4 (or the value of pi), that's a sad state of affairs. This isn't partisanship, it's disgust with the concept that we should be open to interpreting this administration's illegal activities as something other than illegal, just because they claim they're doing it in the name of God. That just makes it blasphemous in addition to illegal.



Well yeah, and if you present no opinion at all but just cap down everyone else's that kind of puts you in the cat-bird seat, doesn't it?

Trust me, I've got it out of my system.

Unsurprisingly, I disagree with you MZ, but I love your passion!

Pecker's right

blast away

 

[b.c.]

Sorry, this has long been the cop-out of the right. Moral high-ground? I know you're serious, but it's still just as pathetic as it has always been before. You're plenty willing to take shots at those you "simply disagree" with, but when have you ever offfered up a defensible argument for your position? I only asked you what it was.

We DON'T agree that reality is subjective. That's bullshit. What is occurring before our eyes IS occurring, how we feel about it is subjective. BIG difference. Sorry, even Bill Clinton lost me on demanding the definition of "is".
We don't live in separate realities! We occupy the same space/time continuum, and when people can't agree that 2+2=4 (or the value of pi), that's a sad state of affairs. This isn't partisanship, it's disgust with the concept that we should be open to interpreting this administration's illegal activities as something other than illegal, just because they claim they're doing it in the name of God. That just makes it blasphemous in addition to illegal.



Well yeah, and if you present no opinion at all but just cap down everyone else's that kind of puts you in the cat-bird seat, doesn't it?

Trust me, I've got it out of my system.

Very well said Madam Z. It galls me to no end when otherwise intelligent people sometimes seem to "dumb up" when it comes to questioning the Bush administration's policies, hence this "your reality/my reality" bullshit.

The "reality" is that when America conducts its foreign policy in ways that the world might perceive as immoral (if not criminal) it does two things: it adds greater legitimacy to the positions of our detractors and it lowers our esteem and position as leaders of the so-called free world. We and our leaders are obliged, because of that position, to take the moral "high ground" regardless of the actions of others.

 

[Shelby]

Very well said Madam Z. It galls me to no end when otherwise intelligent people sometimes seem to "dumb up" when it comes to questioning the Bush administration's policies, hence this "your reality/my reality" bullshit.

The "reality" is that when America conducts its foreign policy in ways that the world might perceive as immoral (if not criminal) it does two things: it adds greater legitimacy to the positions of our detractors and it lowers our esteem and position as leaders of the so-called free world. We and our leaders are obliged, because of that position, to take the moral "high ground" regardless of the actions of others.

when the motherfuckers saw off peoples heads and publicise it on video to make a point, yeah I take the 'high ground'.

Your moral relativism might feel good to you but it's ultimately defeatist bullshit.

In my opinion

 

[DC_DEEP]

Don't worry, us stupids will do our best to defend the way of life you take for granted.

I know, you didn't ask.

Shelby, please clarify for me: what do you me by this?

 

[DC_DEEP]

All of you folks who knee jerk assume our presently elected representatives are inherently evil.

Taken in context, as a clarification, I hope your intent was not what I think. We may have a little bit of a pissing contest if I'm wrong.

 

[Freddie53]

I sent this in a private message to Jana as a spoof to all that has gone on. Jana asked me to print it on the forum. Here it is:

My dear Saintly Jana, the most Sainted Prophet of the new Post Jesus Savior Movement.

I have been busy and am .late to this thread. However, there are some things you need to know

1. Bush was appointed by God to rule this nation. God doesn't make mistakes. Neither can George Bush.

2. American citizens are either civilians or military personnel and by international law come under the Geneva accords. They can't be tortured. George Bush says so.

3. All Muslims are terrorists. As such none of them come under the Geneva accords. As such all of them can be tortured endlessly even unto death.

3. All Muslims will go to hell in a hand basket.

4. And most of all how can you honestly doubt the confessions of a Muslim who has been held under water until there is water in his lungs. When he agreed to become a Christian while under water, what makes you doubt the sincerity of his confession?

5. George Bush was given a holy mandate by God. You see ever since 1789 when the present US Constitution was ratified with the Bill of Rights, God has been pissed, highly pissed. God doesn't like all those rights and due process statements. George's mandate is to completely in eight years destroy this old document. All parts of it except the repealed parts concerning slavery are to be scraped. Through George, God is re-instituting the "Devine Right of Kings, ur//um US Presidents."

6, Barbara Bush was quoted recently on the greatness of George. You may not know, but there was some birth problems as the silver spoon in George's mouth got caught in the birth canal. But being the supernatural that we all know that George is he survived it well.

Barbara went on to state that George never wore diapers. He came into the world potty trained. He never has ever told a lie or made any mistakes.

Jana, there are people who doubt the divinity of Jesus. George has to come to earth to show that if it was possible for George to do it, then it must not have been that big a deal for Jesus.

All the comparisons that appear to be so true between Hitler and Bush are there to give people an opportunity to have faith. Faith a believe in things unseen and unproved. We are talking about faith in the divinity of George, not the Hitler like poetics of George.

No there is no proof that George never shit in his diaper. You have to have faith Jana.

Evidence that George has shit in his pants daily since assuming office are simply allusions to help the rank and file develop true faith in George.
Ann Richards the late Governor of Texas toward the end of her struggle with cancer came to her senses and walked down the aisle of her local church and professed her faith in her Lord and Savior, George Bush.

The Holy Spirit won't always give you this grand opportunity to do the same Jana.

I have lots of faith in you. You are my mentor. And I want you to know that as soon as you walk down the aisle and do this holy thing that Ann Richards did on her death bed, I will follow you and make an ass of myself as well.

It really isn't that bad. Apparently millions of American have done it and they have lived over it....SO FAR.

As for myself, it has been revealed to me that the amendment to the US Constitution limiting US Presidents to two four year terms is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Not only that, but....democracy is a tool of the devil.

I need your help proclaiming this throughout our great land in time to reelect George for life through rigged elections. According to the Bible, it is OK to rig elections as long as they are rigged for George.

I have faith in you Jana that you will come through in help saving this great land for George.
It is time we take that picture of that old fart George Washington off the one dollar bill and put George Bush’s face on it. And while we are at it. Aren’t you tired of referring to our capital as Washington. D.C. Why not Bush D. C. Has a nice ring to it. Don’t ya think?


This was written as a spoof. By no means does this mean that I in anyway have sympathy with the terorists. I don't. But I cherish constitutinal law as the ultimate in government functions. Without consituttional law, we become one of them. True, to a very very much less degree, but nevertheless, we have sold out our democracy for hoped for security which without consitutional law will ultimately be lost over time.

 

[rob_just_rob]

This was written as a spoof. By no means does this mean that I in anyway have sympathy with the terorists. I don't. But I cherish constitutinal law as the ultimate in government functions. Without consituttional law, we become one of them. True, to a very very much less degree, but nevertheless, we have sold out our democracy for hoped for security which without consitutional law will ultimately be lost over time.

The really depressing thing is that disclaimers like this have become necessary when one says anything at all remotely critical of the current regime.