Bush Should Approve This Message

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by D_Martin van Burden, Oct 8, 2004.

  1. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2002
    Messages:
    3,365
    Likes Received:
    6
    Received quite the interesting e-mail this afternoon.

    PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004


    EXPERIENCE AND EDUCATION

    Law Enforcement:
    I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under
    the influence of alcohol. I pleaded guilty, paid a fine, and had
    my driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving
    record has been "lost" and is not available.

    Military:
    I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused
    to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use.
    By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid
    combat duty in Vietnam.

    College:
    I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was
    a cheerleader.


    PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

    I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.

    I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas in 1975.
    I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas.
    The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

    I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal
    that took land using taxpayer money.

    With the help of my father and our friends in the oil industry
    (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.


    ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:

    I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies,
    making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my
    tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden
    city in America.

    I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of
    billions in borrowed money.

    I set the record for the most executions by any governor in
    American history.

    With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my
    father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President
    after losing by over 500,000 votes.


    ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

    I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with
    a criminal record.

    I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of
    *over one billion dollars per week*.

    I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S.
    Treasury.

    I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S.
    history.

    I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in
    any 12-month period.

    I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month
    period.

    I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history
    of the U.S. stock market.

    In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their
    jobs and that trend continues every month.

    I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any
    administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire,"
    Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.

    I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by a U.S.
    President.

    I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving
    the most corporate campaign donations.

    One of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest
    corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.

    My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys
    to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my
    election decision.

    I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against
    investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent
    investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent
    investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.

    I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and
    refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry
    was revealed.

    I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.

    I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be
    awarded government contracts.

    I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than
    any President in U.S. history.

    I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest
    bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.

    I've broken more international treaties than any President in
    U.S. history.

    I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United
    Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

    I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.

    I refused to allow inspector's access to U.S. "prisoners of war"
    detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva
    Convention.

    I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations
    election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).

    I set the record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any
    President since the advent of television.

    I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year
    period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided
    over the worst security failure in U.S. history.

    I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade
    Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most
    hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in
    world history.

    I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to
    simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people),
    shattering the record for protests against any person in the
    history of mankind.

    I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked,
    preemptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign
    nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the
    majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community. I have cut
    health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty
    benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in wartime.

    In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for
    attacking Iraq and then blamed the lies on our British friends.

    I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans
    (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and
    security.

    I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster,"
    a WMD.

    I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden
    to justice.

    During the Iraq War and Occupation thousands of American troops
    were injured and killed. I did not have the time to attend any of
    the funerals for our fallen soldiers but I did have the time to
    attend more than 43 fundraising events of the Republican party.

    RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

    All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my
    father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view.

    All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and
    my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
    public view.

    All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President,
    attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and
    unavailable for public review.
     
  2. jonb

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2002
    Messages:
    8,308
    Likes Received:
    2
  3. cruztbone

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,291
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Capitola CA USA
    Then dont just complain! join the campaign and help us send George home to Crawford where he
    can chop wood to his heart's content! At least California will lead the nation in voting him out! there is little support for him here. Kerry/Edwards needs your help-TODAY!
     
  4. BobLeeSwagger

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,481
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    While I'm no fan of Dubya and would never vote for him, I hate seeing political tracts that contain so many misleading statements. His record is bad enough that we don't need to spread lies about him.
     
  5. Socket4Plug

    Socket4Plug New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    I and a lot of other Texans would prefer we send him somewhere else! Texas doesn't want him either after the mess he made. He's all fired up to go to Mars, maybe we can just ship him there? :D I'm sure the EU would be more than happy to lend us a rocket for the trip...
     
  6. madame_zora

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    10,252
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Ohio
    Aloofman, I'm curious- what specifically did you find to be untrue? I personally know of much of that info to be factual so I'd be interested to know what you think is false.
     
  7. jonb

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2002
    Messages:
    8,308
    Likes Received:
    2
    Actually, Crawford doesn't want him either; Crawford's paper endorsed Kerry.
     
  8. jonb

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2002
    Messages:
    8,308
    Likes Received:
    2
    Here's a message Bush should approve:

    From: GEORGE W. BUSH (president@whitehouse.gov)
    Subject: URGENT BUSINESS ASSISTANCE
    Newsgroups: *
    X-Priority 1
    X-No-Archive: Yes
    Lines: 65
    Date: September 12, 2002

    IMMEDIATE ATTENTION NEEDED:
    HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL
    FROM: GEORGE WALKER BUSH
    DEAR SIR / MADAM,
    I AM GEORGE WALKER BUSH, SON OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF
    AMERICA GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, AND CURRENTLY SERVING AS PRESIDENT OF
    THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. THIS LETTER MIGHT SURPRISE YOU BECAUSE WE HAVE
    NOT MET NEITHER IN PERSON NOR BY CORRESPONDENCE. I CAME TO KNOW OF YOU IN MY
    SEARCH FOR A RELIABLE AND REPUTABLE PERSON TO HANDLE A VERY CONFIDENTIAL
    BUSINESS TRANSACTION, WHICH INVOLVES THE TRANSFER OF A HUGE SUM OF MONEY TO
    AN ACCOUNT REQUIRING MAXIMUM CONFIDENCE.
    I AM WRITING YOU IN ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE PRIMARILY TO SEEK YOUR ASSISTANCE IN
    ACQUIRING OIL FUNDS THAT ARE PRESENTLY TRAPPED IN THE REPUBLIC OF IRAQ. MY
    PARTNERS AND I SOLICIT YOUR ASSISTANCE IN COMPLETING A TRANSACTION BEGUN BY
    MY FATHER, WHO HAS LONG BEEN ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN THE EXTRACTION OF PETROLEUM
    IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND BRAVELY SERVED HIS COUNTRY AS DIRECTOR
    OF THE UNITED STATES CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.
    IN THE DECADE OF THE NINETEEN-EIGHTIES, MY FATHER, THEN VICE-PRESIDENT OF
    THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, SOUGHT TO WORK WITH THE GOOD OFFICES OF THE
    PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF IRAQ TO REGAIN LOST OIL REVENUE SOURCES IN THE
    NEIGHBORING ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN. THIS UNSUCCESSFUL VENTURE WAS SOON
    FOLLOWED BY A FALLING OUT WITH HIS IRAQI PARTNER, WHO SOUGHT TO ACQUIRE
    ADDITIONAL OIL REVENUE SOURCES IN THE NEIGHBORING EMIRATE OF KUWAIT, A
    WHOLLY-OWNED U.S.-BRITISH SUBSIDIARY.
    MY FATHER RE-SECURED THE PETROLEUM ASSETS OF KUWAIT IN 1991 AT A COST OF
    SIXTY-ONE BILLION U.S. DOLLARS ($61,000,000,000). OUT OF THAT COST.
    THIRTY-SIX BILLION DOLLARS ($36,000,000,000) WERE SUPPLIED BY HIS PARTNERS
    IN THE KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA AND OTHER PERSIAN GULF MONARCHIES, AND
    SIXTEEN BILLION DOLLARS ($16,000,000,000) BY GERMAN AND JAPANESE PARTNERS.
    BUT MY FATHER'S FORMER IRAQI BUSINESS PARTNER REMAINED IN CONTROL OF THE
    REPUBLIC OF IRAQ AND ITS PETROLEUM RESERVES.
    MY FAMILY IS CALLING FOR YOUR URGENT ASSISTANCE IN FUNDING THE REMOVAL OF
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF IRAQ AND ACQUIRING THE PETROLEUM ASSETS OF
    HIS COUNTRY, AS COMPENSATION FOR THE COSTS OF REMOVING HIM FROM POWER.
    UNFORTUNATELY, OUR PARTNERS FROM 1991 ARE NOT WILLING TO SHOULDER THE BURDEN
    OF THIS NEW VENTURE, WHICH IN ITS UPCOMING PHASE MAY COST THE SUM OF 100
    BILLION TO 200 BILLION DOLLARS ($100,000,000,000 - $200,000,000,000), BOTH
    IN THE INITIAL ACQUISITION AND IN LONG-TERM MANAGEMENT.
    WITHOUT THE FUNDS FROM OUR 1991 PARTNERS, WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO ACQUIRE
    THE OIL REVENUE TRAPPED WITHIN IRAQ. THAT IS WHY MY FAMILY AND OUR
    COLLEAGUES ARE URGENTLY SEEKING YOUR GRACIOUS ASSISTANCE. OUR DISTINGUISHED
    COLLEAGUES IN THIS BUSINESS TRANSACTION INCLUDE THE SITTING VICE-PRESIDENT
    OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, RICHARD CHENEY, WHO IS AN ORIGINAL PARTNER
    IN THE IRAQ VENTURE AND FORMER HEAD OF THE ALLIBURTON OIL COMPANY, AND
    CONDOLEEZA RICE, WHOSE PROFESSIONAL DEDICATION TO THE VENTURE WAS
    DEMONSTRATED IN THE NAMING OF A CHEVRON OIL TANKER AFTER HER.
    I WOULD BESEECH YOU TO TRANSFER A SUM EQUALING TEN TO TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT
    (10-25 %) OF YOUR YEARLY INCOME TO OUR ACCOUNT TO AID IN THIS IMPORTANT
    VENTURE. THE INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WILL
    FUNCTION AS OUR TRUSTED INTERMEDIARY. I PROPOSE THAT YOU MAKE THIS TRANSFER
    BEFORE THE FIFTEENTH (15TH) OF THE MONTH OF APRIL.
    I KNOW THAT A TRANSACTION OF THIS MAGNITUDE WOULD MAKE ANYONE APPREHENSIVE
    AND WORRIED. BUT I AM ASSURING YOU THAT ALL WILL BE WELL AT THE END OF THE
    DAY. A BOLD STEP TAKEN SHALL NOT BE REGRETTED, I ASSURE YOU. PLEASE DO BE
    INFORMED THAT THIS BUSINESS TRANSACTION IS 100% LEGAL. IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO
    CO-OPERATE IN THIS TRANSACTION, PLEASE CONTACT OUR INTERMEDIARY
    REPRESENTATIVES TO FURTHER DISCUSS THE MATTER.
    I PRAY THAT YOU UNDERSTAND OUR PLIGHT. MY FAMILY AND OUR COLLEAGUES WILL BE
    FOREVER GRATEFUL. PLEASE REPLY IN STRICT CONFIDENCE TO THE CONTACT NUMBERS
    BELOW.
    SINCERELY WITH WARM REGARDS,
    GEORGE WALKER BUSH
    Switchboard: 202.456.1414
    Fax: 202.456.2461
    Comments: 202.456.1111
    Email: president@whitehouse.gov
     
  9. BobLeeSwagger

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,481
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Without getting too detailed:

    Houston's smog has gotten worse, but Los Angeles took back the crown, depending on how you measure it. The point is still valid, but the fact is outdated.

    Neither the state of Texas nor the federal government have ever gone bankrupt. In debt because of poor fiscal policies, yes. But not bankrupt.

    Since the national popular vote does not decide the presidential election, Bush could have not have become president "after losing by over 500,000 votes."

    Even if Bush were the first president to have a criminal record, that wouldn't mean he was the least ethical or most corrupt. Andrew Jackson killed a man in a duel before he became president. Chester A. Arthur was head of the New York Customs Authority, the most corrupt political position in the nation at the time. LBJ probably rigged at least one election in his political rise.

    Both budget deficits and gasoline prices have been higher in the past, when adjusted for inflation. The stock market has fallen much further on a percentage basis than in the past four years, which was caused by a bubble economy that was not Bush's fault. And the current "energy crisis" is far less severe than the oil shocks of 1973 and 1979.

    The idea of criticizing the wealth of Bush's cabinet members is pretty silly. Almost all of them throughout history have been fairly wealthy. You just don't become powerful enough without making some money along the way.

    The DEPARTMENT of Homeland Security (not Ministry) is a reorganization of mostly existing federal agencies like the DEA, ATF, U.S. Customs, Border Patrol, and others. It was not Bush's idea and he resisted it until political pressure made him "flip-flop" on it.

    No president in recent history has attended public funerals for American troops killed in action. Not Bush, not Clinton, Reagan, or Carter.

    If you think that Bush is the first president to invade and occupy a foreign country under false pretenses, then you need to read up on American history. That's USUALLY the way it's happened.

    I'm not trying to defend Bush here. I absolutely don't want him to win. His record on foreign policy, taxes, the environment, civil rights, and accountability have all been dismal. But if Democrats use misleading statements to sway people's votes, then they're no better than the Republican propaganda machine that put Bush in office in the first place. And like I said, he's done plenty of bad stuff that we shouldn't have to make things up.
     
  10. madame_zora

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    10,252
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Ohio
    Without getting too detailed:

    Houston's smog has gotten worse, but Los Angeles took back the crown, depending on how you measure it. The point is still valid, but the fact is outdated.


    That's a pretty small point, either way. The polution increased tremendously under Bush's watch. I don't know how it compares with other major us cities other than how it's reported in the news, I haven't done an independant study. -mz


    Neither the state of Texas nor the federal government have ever gone bankrupt. In debt because of poor fiscal policies, yes. But not bankrupt.


    Once again, you're just splitting hairs with grammar. He's taken a surplus and turned it into the largest deficit in history in the shortest time. PLUS drained social security. While the US and Texas have not filed bankruptcy, he has severely depleted the funds.-mz



    Since the national popular vote does not decide the presidential election, Bush could have not have become president "after losing by over 500,000 votes."


    We all know how that works, but it's the first time the votes were disregarded in this way, when clearly many people were denied the right to even vote, much less be counted. This was certainly the first time an election count was so suspicious that it had to go to the supreme court to be decided, and STILL no one would speak up for the black voters who were turned away in Florida.-mz


    Even if Bush were the first president to have a criminal record, that wouldn't mean he was the least ethical or most corrupt. Andrew Jackson killed a man in a duel before he became president. Chester A. Arthur was head of the New York Customs Authority, the most corrupt political position in the nation at the time. LBJ probably rigged at least one election in his political rise.



    Nor was Clinton the first pres to get a BJ, the fact remains he IS the first pres to have a criminal record, so far you haven't shown anything to be untrue.-mz



    Both budget deficits and gasoline prices have been higher in the past, when adjusted for inflation. The stock market has fallen much further on a percentage basis than in the past four years, which was caused by a bubble economy that was not Bush's fault. And the current "energy crisis" is far less severe than the oil shocks of 1973 and 1979.



    Nope, not even adjusted for inflation. Over $2/gal now, in 1979 it went up to about .85.-mz



    The idea of criticizing the wealth of Bush's cabinet members is pretty silly. Almost all of them throughout history have been fairly wealthy. You just don't become powerful enough without making some money along the way.


    Nobody minds that they are wealthy, as long as they adress the needs of the rest of the country as well, and this administration doesn't. Nonetheless, they ARE the most wealthy cabinet- so this isn't a fabrication either.-mz



    The DEPARTMENT of Homeland Security (not Ministry) is a reorganization of mostly existing federal agencies like the DEA, ATF, U.S. Customs, Border Patrol, and others. It was not Bush's idea and he resisted it until political pressure made him "flip-flop" on it.


    But those other organisations still exist, so the DEPARTMENT of homeland security is something new. You did make a good point that the word "ministry" was misused, but this is the first point I can see so far of actual erroneous info. As for Bush resisting an opportunity to gain control of something, I find that hard to swallow, but I won't argue because I don't know otherwise. Where do you get this info tho?-mz


    No president in recent history has attended public funerals for American troops killed in action. Not Bush, not Clinton, Reagan, or Carter.


    Good point, and true.-mz


    If you think that Bush is the first president to invade and occupy a foreign country under false pretenses, then you need to read up on American history. That's USUALLY the way it's happened.



    Geez, what about WWI and WWII? What were the false pretenses there? Besides, I was only asking you what in the article was UNTRUE. So far, almost nothing.-mz



    I'm not trying to defend Bush here. I absolutely don't want him to win. His record on foreign policy, taxes, the environment, civil rights, and accountability have all been dismal. But if Democrats use misleading statements to sway people's votes, then they're no better than the Republican propaganda machine that put Bush in office in the first place. And like I said, he's done plenty of bad stuff that we shouldn't have to make things up.


    As you've pointed out yourself, very little was "made up" at all. Slanted, yes- that's what politicians do, they present their own side in the best light. I truly hope you don't want to defend Bush, but from some of your responses in the past, I think you are a Republican at heart and would like to vote that way. I have voted Republican in some elections myself, so I can understand this feeling to a degree, but there is an unusually large gathering of Republicans who will be voting Democratic this election, because the stakes are just too high this time to vote for a party.-mz
    [post=258916]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]


    The reason I went to this trouble is that this is usually what I've found with pro-Bush-ers. They say things are made up, but use info that doesn't go to prove their point at all. Have any of you seen the commercial about Kerry's comments about Vietnam? They quote him talking about the atrocities committed by Americans in the Vietnam war, and they actually think that proves him to be disloyal to his country!!!!! Because he talks about it!!! The commercial plays a lot here in Ohio, and I feel sick every time I see it thinking how horrible it must have been to be an honorable man and have to witness such repulsive things being done by Americans. If the Republicans had ANY sense at all, they wouldn't want us to be thinking about the reality of what happens to a young man's mind when he is forced to commit acts of horror for no reason- he becomes a monster himself, sometimes, as a way of coping. For Kerry to object to this means he had not yet lost his humanity, for which I am grateful.
    I would not consider it "patriotic" to hide things about our own army that are illegal, immoral, and wrong. The "patriotic" thing to do is to try to correct the problems so that America can be the bright beacon it should be. We are supposed to be freeing others from oppression, not raping them ourselves.
     
  11. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    Juliet Bravo:
    I couldn't agree more. Who better to speak out against 'Nam (or any war, for that matter) than one who was there himself! He had every right to state his opinions upon his return.
     
  12. KinkGuy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    2,976
    Likes Received:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    southwest US
    And I wish people would realize, the Kerry "quotes" used in the ads is completely out of context, (as usual for the republicans and the white house). Yes he said those exact words, but having seen the entire taped speech before Congress, he was relaying the words, the exact words of dozens and dozens of other Viet Nam Vets, whom had asked Kerry to speak on their behalf. Kerry made that very clear at the beginning of his speech. Kerry not once, ever during the almost two hours before the House, did he ever say that the statements were his or that he had witnessed or participated in the occurrences being described. Congress gave Kerry written letters and certificates of appreciation for his speech as a true American.
     
  13. BobLeeSwagger

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,481
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Wow. I've never had my political views so misinterpreted in my entire life. Here I try to raise the integrity of the discourse and I get accused of liking Bush!

    My point about Houston's air pollution was not that it hasn't gotten worse. It has. In fact, most major U.S. cities have seen their pollution get worse, except for Los Angeles. Why? Because L.A.'s air was so terrible, so noxious fifty years ago that it was becoming unliveable. That's why California can set its own air quality laws that are tougher than the feds'. It's that the "fact" about Houston's smog being worse than that of Los Angeles is not completely true. There are far easier ways to illustrate Bush's trampling of the environment than this one. It's a little factoid used by people who are just being lazy in their criticism. These are the kinds of little slants that people like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter use against Democrats and I'm not going to stoop to their level.

    I'm not splitting hairs about bankrupt governments because "bankrupt" is inaccurate. The point about Bush's poor fiscal policies could still be made without using it. The term "bankrupt" carries more severity in people's minds than "in debt" or "in the black." That's why it was used. And I got news for you: Social Security was raided under Clinton's watch. That's not a Bush problem. It's a Washington problem.

    The 2000 election was absolutely NOT the first time that the voting count was suspiciously manipulated. It's happened in every close election this country has ever had, and some of those that weren't that close. To wit:

    - The election of 1800 was paralyzed by Aaron Burr's political ambitions and was resolved by a tiebreaking vote in the House of Representatives. One of Jefferson's voters was technically too young to serve in Congress.

    - The electoral vote of 1824 was split among four candidates, with the highest vote-getter, Andrew Jackson, left out and John Quincy Adams being elected. One of the other four, Henry Clay, threw his votes to Adams and was chosen as Secretary of State.

    - The election of 1876 was ridden with so much fraud that Congress appointed its own partisan commission to decide it. The one neutral member of the commission was suddenly and mysteriously given a Senate seat and his replacement voted for Hayes, giving all three disputed states' electoral votes to him. Samuel Tilden lost the presidency by one electoral vote and he also had the most popular votes.

    - The election of 1860 was probably won by Kennedy only because of voter fraud in several states, including mob-controlled Chicago.

    This doesn't make Bush right. Not at all. But to claim he's the only one to ever do it is untrue. All of the criticisms you make can be rightly made without such a charge.

    My point about Bush's criminal record is that his offenses -- drunk driving and the like -- pale in comparison to previous candidates who have well and truly screwed people over. Quick, find out if he's ever kicked his dog!

    Gas prices are not at historic highs, no matter where your phony number came from.

    http://money.cnn.com/2004/05/18/commentary/wastler/wastler/

    You can find information about Bush's reluctance about the proposed Dept. of Homeland Security very easily if you look. Sen. Joe Lieberman (Dem-Conn.) first proposed it and Bush resisted until both sides of the aisle in Congress pressured him. Bush then tried to turn it to his advantage by inserting an amendment that would screw over civil service unions, which are, needless to say, mostly made up of Democrats. Now does that sound like him?

    The two world wars are exceptions in our long history of attacking countries that have something we want. We provoked a war with Mexico to get California. We pestered the crumbling empire of Spain so we could get the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Guam. We variously attacked or encouraged coups in Latin America to help American corporations get sugar and fruit. We ran Native Americans off good farmland. None of these things excuses Bush's colossal mistake in Iraq. As someone whose brother was nearly killed serving there last year, I take offense to the notion that I would defend Bush on this. There are plenty of very valid objections to the Iraq war that don't require the false claim that Bush is the first to have done it.

    You didn't notice that I didn't nitpick about many of the points made in the original post because I don't think those are inaccurate. I'm not one of those hysterical Bush-haters who thinks he's evil, dumb or part of some crazy conspiracy (at least not any conspiracies that aren't well-known). But I do think he's incompetent, and that's a good enough reason for me to vote against him. For the record, I have never in my life voted for a Republican candidate for president. Or a Democrat, until this year. I live in a state that was ruled entirely by Democrats for seven years until last fall and they fucked up the entire state government. I'm under no illusion that an all-Republican legislature and governor would be any better.

    Let me nitpick again: Kerry's testimony before Congress in 1971 regarding atrocities were him repeating what other Vietnam veterans had said. He didn't claim to have witnessed them, as many Republicans claim now as part of their propaganda campaign. Did this make Kerry less of a spokesman against the Vietnam War? Not at all. Those allegations of abuse by soldiers were true then and were vindicated by later investigations. You're right that the attacks on Kerry's war record are disgusting.

    I completely agree that it's not unpatriotic to be appalled by atrocities committed by American troops. We should expect more and hold everyone involved accountable. Bush uses that word "accountable" a lot, but he never practices it. How many generals have lost their jobs over the poor post-war planning? Only one, the guy who warned we didn't have enough troops there. The torturing at Abu Ghraib? None. Ashcroft's attacks on civil liberties? None. Poor fiscal policy? Only Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, who had the audacity to say true things instead of toeing the administration line.

    I think that post's kind of fact-bending is wrong, even if Democrats do it. If they mislead people into winning back the White House, they'll only create more fodder for Republican attacks in 2006 and 2008. People see through that. It's part of the reason voter turnout is so low and cynicism about government is so high. Bush's record is so bad that Democrats can take the high road and still win. If that makes me too idealistic, then so be it. But don't claim that I'm lying when you haven't looked it up yourself to refute it.

    And I have to correct myself. The official title of Chester A. Arthur's job before winning national office was "Collector of the Port of New York," not head of the New York Customs Authority. I stand corrected.
     
  14. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    YoungNHung19: Perhaps you communist liberals should check your facts before printing such bogus, misleading information. It's wacko, crazy, left-wing nutjobs like you that turn off undecided voters. These "undecided voters" is who Kerry needs to win the election. This is libel and slanderous activity is truly pathetic and does not deserve a full response, except to say when Bush is re-elected, you can blame that on something too. Anyone who thinks John Kerry is right for America is not caught up on his 20 year Senate record, or his current stance on the issues concerning Americans today.
     
  15. LuckyLuke

    LuckyLuke New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2004
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    1


    3rd President in history, I believe, to become President without winning popular vote.

    While it may be true of gasoline, Bush43 definitely has the record of the largest deficit in US history - as measured by percentage of GDP. 2005 is on track to blow away Bush's present record by a very healthy margin.

    That's because the US won't hold public funerals for these troops! And Clinton specifically made a point of greeting every single coffin of a US soldier that was returned to the USA - Clinton would be out there on the tarmac at that airfield - saluting. I believe Reagan and Carter did the same, though I haven't been able to confirm it.

    This 'hit' on Bush seems quite valid.

    Damn good point.

    <!--QuoteBegin-aloofman
    @Oct 11 2004, 04:40 AM
    I&#39;m not trying to defend Bush here. I absolutely don&#39;t want him to win. His record on foreign policy, taxes, the environment, civil rights, and accountability have all been dismal. But if Democrats use misleading statements to sway people&#39;s votes, then they&#39;re no better than the Republican propaganda machine that put Bush in office in the first place. And like I said, he&#39;s done plenty of bad stuff that we shouldn&#39;t have to make things up. [/quote]

    I agree completely. There is enough material out there to condemn Bush without the need to embellish facts.

    The Medicare giveaway to HMO&#39;s & the skyrocketing deficit come to mind, as Bush&#39;s worst policies - though his trashing of environmental regulations is also notable.

    And US Foreign policy has become a bit of a comedy (if it weren&#39;t for the dead bodies), and that can&#39;t be a good thing for the US regardless of anyone&#39;s &#39;warhawkness&#39; - hard to be taken seriously when people are laughing at one&#39;s incompetance. Being violent does have its uses - being stupid and violent is just plain nasty.
     
  16. jay_too

    jay_too New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CA
    I tend to agree with the thrust of your argument. However, both sides seem to have decided that for this campaign distortion is better than honesty. Which side is worse? Well, I have my opinion [hint, hint: Iraq and WMDs].

    On today&#39;s news I hear that the Bush/Ashcroft Department of (in)Justice will be arguing before the Supreme Court that drunk driving is so felonious that the 20-year resident [with a clean record] should be deprted back to Haiti. Perhaps, Bush-Ashcroft have special insight into the danger that some of us do not have. By the end of the week we may some idea of their thinking.

    jay
     
  17. madame_zora

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    10,252
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Ohio
    Aloofman, when I reread my post, I admit that i was unclear as to my intentions. I did not mean to lump you in with all bush supporters, so I apologise that it came out that way. I was simply trying to illustrate my frustration with the arguements I&#39;ve been encountering of late, not just this one in particular. I was the one splitting hairs- when I hear someone say the Democratic party is "making things up" when they are really only presenting facts in their most positive light, I get a bit miffed. Both sides present info in the best light for their party, but when the Democrats do it, it&#39;s called "lying". I appreciate the insights you offer as arguement, and your specific replies. It seems that some of the things I&#39;ve read differ from ones that you&#39;ve cited, but who&#39;s to say which is right. I&#39;m always glad to hear "the devil&#39;s advocate" side.

    It is my personal opinion that bush is less intelligent than many of the former presidents we&#39;ve had, although maybe not the very dumbest, but I sure would feel more confidant having a man who commanded more respect worldwide in office than one who is seen as a buffoon by other world leaders. That comment goes out to youngnhung19, I just can&#39;t find one specific phrase in your comments worth responding to. Put me on the list of "left wing nutjobs" for sure, though.
     
  18. jonb

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2002
    Messages:
    8,308
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hey, if Starr can start a 535-member circle jerk about blowjobs, I see no problem with talking about Bush&#39;s time with Harken or his drunk-driving conviction.
     
  19. Imported

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2000
    Messages:
    56,713
    Likes Received:
    55
    YoungNHung19: You should know by now Bush did not cause the deficit moron. Get some common sense really. Crazy, left wing liberals like you drive me crazy, because you are completely illogical. And you are rightm Bush did not win the popular vote, but really who gives a shit, it is irrelevant because you win the presidency in this country, and have for a long time, by the electoral college system. Get over it, and tell Al Gore the same thing while you&#39;re at it.
     
  20. BobLeeSwagger

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,481
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    I understand the feeling. My original point -- though I admit it got pretty lost there -- was that shading the facts for partisan gain is equally wrong no matter which side is doing it, especially when there are plenty of legitimate facts to work with.

    Here&#39;s one scorecard that fact-checks the claims by the candidates in the recent debates:

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/...4_10/004897.php
     
Draft saved Draft deleted