Bush Urges U.S. to See Progress in Iraq

SR_search4bp

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EnglishGentleman said:
*snip*...Rant all you like, say "fuck you" till you are hoarse, you are being unpleasant and reactionary, and I wish to waste no more of my valuable time teaching you what you would have learned had you listened in school.

I love your post, English, you are a very similar soul... :smile:

I'm just unable to express it in such eloquent english words...
 

B_Stronzo

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search4bp said:
after reading all of your opinions, I have to laugh...

Lucky you search4bp! I can only cry. It's hell watching your own country go straight down the crapper.

I wonder, how ignorant and stupid all those Americans are, who still support their actual "regime"... the plain fact is that they never learned something from history, although easily accessible.

Yes it's true. What we've never been able to shake off, as Americans, is that shroud of insular nationalism. It think it was once partly geographical but we cannot use that excuse anymore. These Fundamentalist Christians who would have their "fearsome" leader GWB believe he's under personal instruction from God have been given a forum where once their corn-fed verison of pseudo morality was hidden away in the generational "heartland". Remember, these are the same Americans who believe Bill Clinton getting a blow job is worse than what's been perpetrated by that Napoleon in the Oval Office. It's so very telling that to these people sex is nasty but liscensed killing is somehow justifiable.

As you heard today from your fine president, you'll "stay in Iraq for the years to come" - PERFECT - STAY THERE - KEEP ALL YOUR TROOPS BOUND THERE - because WE DON'T WANT YOU anywhere else! Two thumbs up! :smile:
However much I understand your feeling of relief it's difficult for me, an American who once took due pride in his fine country, to simply take an "oh better you than us" stand.

The sad part is that you'll lose a lot lives of your poor soldiers (who are just the sheep who get sacrificed) besides the thousands and thousands of civilians, who get slaughtered.
Indeed. It's more than sad, it's an abomination. But, your forget, those soldiers buy the rhetoric and those 'civilians' are "only Muslims" :rolleyes:

I might speak what I think, but does ANYONE of YOU move his ass for saving them?
Without going into wordy detail I can assure that the answer to this question is a resounding "yes". Rest assured.
 

Matthew

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Stronzo said:
Indeed. It's more than sad, it's an abomination. But, your forget, those soldiers buy the rhetoric and those 'civilians' are "only Muslims"

Just a note on this point. I distinguish between our soldiers and american foreign policy. Not all the soldiers do buy the rhetoric. I've talked to plenty who have come back from both Gulf Wars very critical of our policies. For many, being in the military looks like their best option for education and future employment. And of course, many are genuinely trying to do the right thing. I know there are also brain-dead, murder-happy freaks in the military too (one has posted to this board). But as I'm sure we can all agree, the military has no exclusive franchise on lunatics.
 

SR_search4bp

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Stronzo,

it's a relief to hear these kind of words from an American... indeed

I know that there are lots of good people around in your country, we have even good friends there who share your opinions. So I don't want to put all of you into the same basket. But unfortunately you are just a minority or you have no means to speak up and get heard! (where are your civil rights gone?)

Look at all the goodwill you once had worldwide... where is it gone? And why? You (the Americans) creates more hatred than ever before, just in a few years...

You're very right: call Clinton back, give him 20 girls who give him enough daily blowjobs to make him smile and let him do his job, because you never had a better president before him - my opinion, I know - but for heavens sake stop that damn killing! Those guys who are responsible for bringing death to other people are normally called "murderers" - is that nice to be called like that?

Don't understand me wrong, I don't want to excuse the 9/11 terrorist act. But that did the same kind of people who now govern you, who steal your money, who tell you shameless lies with sweet voices and who keep you under the carpet of fear...

I call myself a human being and respect all races, cultures, religions and I accept the fact, that other people live a different life. Why can't you Americans do that too?
 

EnglishGentleman

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Just a personal note re the ill considered attack made against myself by hotnmpls2000 then subsequently deleted.

Thanks to everyone who jumped to my defence in my absence. It's good to know there's people like you guys around especially those of you in the US who are a credit to a country rapidly losing credibility for reasons we've already discussed and agreed on.

To the fellow himself...I'm glad you removed the post for your sake. I shall not descend into insults or personal comments, but you obviously realise that the less people that saw your tirade, the better for you. I have no personal difficulty with you, and I hope that this debate will help you to form more considered opinions on this topic. Please don't stoop to insult and parody in future, and we can have much more productive debates of which you would be a welcome participant.

Forgive me all if my typo regarding the date of the World Trade Centre tragedy caused any offence to anyone (now corrected). No trivialisation was intended as the more intelligent among you have already realised. Our date convention in the UK places the date first and the month second, so what you call 9/11 (the source of my minor mistake) would be 11/9 over here. Since it was primarily your disaster, even though if affected us all worldwide, the whole world has learned to refer to it as 9/11 in respect to your loss.
 

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Matthew said:
Not all the soldiers do buy the rhetoric. I've talked to plenty who have come back from both Gulf Wars very critical of our policies. For many, being in the military looks like their best option for education and future employment. And of course, many are genuinely trying to do the right thing. I know there are also brain-dead, murder-happy freaks in the military too (one has posted to this board). But as I'm sure we can all agree, the military has no exclusive franchise on lunatics.

Yes, it was too blanket Matthew. Thanks for putting me right. With respect to this one point, I thought of that when I posted that piece but I was in the middle of a business call and pushed "submit" before I could properly edit and correct.

How very telling that the armed forces finds it necessary to prey on those who see entering its service as their only way to education and betterment in the "best country in the world":rolleyes:. The main recruitment target group (it's my considered understanding) is inner city black Americans. Gee, there's a real shockeroo.

Nonetheless, I do feel there's a rather unhealthy percentage who do buy the adminstration's hype with regard to "freeing up Iraq for Democracy" (I hasten to add "truth, justice and the American way"). It's to those I refer strictly. And for all I feel a real sense of sympathy and sadness.

Thanks, R.
 

Matthew

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Stronzo said:
Yes, it was too blanket Matthew. Thanks for putting me right. With respect to this one point, I thought of that when I posted that piece but I was in the middle of a business call and pushed "submit" before I could properly edit and correct.

Haha, I wouldn't presume to "put you right." I was actually thinking you would agree; consider it a friendly amendment.

But there's no question - an enormous number of americans, both in and out of the military, agree with and support this war drive. That's enough to give me pause in and of itself. But after the number of machinations, justifications, twists and turns and about faces this whole thing has gone through, it still stuns me that more people still don't see the big picture.
 

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Matthew said:
Haha, I wouldn't presume to "put you right." I was actually thinking you would agree; consider it a friendly amendment.

I do and I did. Typically I needed to have my "say" :tongue:

One more thing. Get ready. I'm going to put it right out there:

I think you're one fair minded fuck and the board's lucky to have you as moderator. You're a reasonable man.

You can stand upright now. I've taken my nose out of your ass.
 
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Personally I have mixed feelings about Iraq, yes Saddam was a bad man and should have been removed, if only for killing nearly 50,000+ people in his own counrty a year, not to mention the torture suffered by many. However it must be kept in mind who put him there and why. Earlier in the thread someone, i forget who now, mentioned that Iraq and iran have no tradition of democracy, this is very untrue and both countries have enjoyed democracies for many years, however not in recent history with the religion led ayatollahs. Saddam was placed into power by western governments (mentioning no names hmm hmm) in order to gain power in the region in order to support the palestine hated israelis. However as with many things this back fired when support was withdrawn (as in afghanistan against the russians now leading to Mr Bin Laden). Many people have mentioned Kuwait not realising that initially Saddam was giving the secret nod to go ahead in kuwait as this area was seen as a 'de-stabilizing' force in the middle east. The intention was always to reel in Saddam when he did eventually invade Kuwait so that he would not gain to much power. Everyone is right in saying that Iraq was/is mainly about oil, however again, it is also about power, for years saddam was controlled by the likes of America, but in recent years leading up to the war was more controlled by the UN with the use of regular inspections and embargoes. Now with the current occupying forces in control of Iraq and to a large extent able to choose and/or control who is in charge, the UN no longer has control of a large power in that area as the organisation was on the most part not involved and ruled the conflict illegal (part of saddam's defence and why he is being tried in Iraq and not the Hague). With regards to 9/11 or 11/9 however you want to pronounce it, it is common belief that it was known that an incident like this was going to occur (even the head security officer at one of the towers predicted an event such as this), however little was done about it, largely for two reasons..
Since the end of the cold war there was largely no longer an 'us and them' attitude with leaders largely having to manage a country rather than protect it and control it. The naming of al qaeda restores the 'us and them' attitude with single, figure head leaders being necessary to 'protect' us and to a large extent control us. The naming of this threat also provides a distraction so that new policies and laws may be ushered in (such as identity cards in britain and the inheritance tax) with little or no opposition in order to monitor us (1984 anyone)?

On a more ironic note..he he. It does make me chuckle to read how the cold war was 'won'. Was the cold war not against communism not just russia, and if it was just against Russia, then why go to vietnam and korea. I do laugh at how the cold war was 'won' as I have to consider how much our countries are indebted to China (to the tune of billions) a well known communist country. I also take my hat off to Cuba, for, despite all the embargoes and it's isolation, having one of the best social care systems in the world. Now roll on the chants calling me a commie! ha ha

A man not seen as wise (prizes for who can guess) once said 'A man with all the information knows that both sides of an argument are correct, a man without all the information has an opinion'. I hope i'm neither pretentious enough to think i know all the information or old enough or dangerous enough to have all the information nor un-educated enough to have an ill advised opinion.