Bush Urges U.S. to See Progress in Iraq

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
130
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Funkalicious said:
Since the end of the cold war there was largely no longer an 'us and them' attitude with leaders largely having to manage a country rather than protect it and control it. The naming of al qaeda restores the 'us and them' attitude with single, figure head leaders being necessary to 'protect' us and to a large extent control us. The naming of this threat also provides a distraction so that new policies and laws may be ushered in (such as identity cards in britain and the inheritance tax) with little or no opposition in order to monitor us (1984 anyone)?

Love it. It's a recurring theme in American thinking. We've always needed to have a "baddie" out there.


Mes amis Américains? Is anyone noticing a theme here? We were originally a British Colony. Our Founding Father's were largely of English descent... and without doubt the broadest perspective about this thing is coming from what??

ENGLISH SOURCES ON THIS BOARD

...and their stake (the British) is arguably as great as ours as Americans.

That's it EG, Italy be damned I'm coming 'home' to Devon.
 

Freddie53

Superior Member
Gold
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Posts
5,842
Media
0
Likes
2,609
Points
333
Location
Memphis (Tennessee, United States)
Gender
Male
EnglishGentleman said:
The very Identity of a country is defined by it's history and it's culture. Destroy that and no amount of oil money can EVER bring it back. What a shamefully "American" point of view. You come from a country made up of the bastardised remnants of Europeans and others who left for fortune seeking, or through their own religious intolerance. You have no history of your own to defend, only money. No wonder you cannot appreciate the destruction you wreak upon the dignity and beliefs of other nations if your view is obscured by dollar signs.

I don't wish to insult all the good people of America for the sins of their forefathers. Many of you are fine people. I refer above to the stereotype propagated by the monetaristic, disrespectful minority who perpetuate this pointless war, and run roughshod over cultures they do not understand.
Englishgentleman,

I have always enjoyed your posts. This one surprised me. I am very proud of my English heritage. Parts of my family have been here for 400 years. Part of my family is descended from nobility from the Lake District. But according ot english tradition, the eldest got the estate so in my case the second yougest brother came to America to seek his fortune.

I love Great Britain and its people. And you are right, America has skeletons in its closest. So does Great Britain.

If I remember my history correctly, English cutture was on the way to oblivion compliments of Hitler in WWII. No one country could have defeated Hitler by 1941. America had to have Great Britain as its ally in order to invade and destroy Hitler. And Britain did not have the resources to invade and destroy Hitler on its own. The best Britain could have done is reached a statemate with Germany where neither country won and each decided to just regcognized each other.

As for being bastardized remnats of Europeans. The same can be said of Europe as well. I tried to trace my legal last name. I thought is was Scottish, then I found out that because of migration between all the provinces and two nations of the British Isles that there has been much migration in and out of all of them: England, Wales, Scottland, Northern Ireland and Ireland.

And I know some about British history. The Celts were there, then the Angles and Saxons invaded, then there were some invasinos by the Scandinavians though the years, and then the Normans from France, which part of my family is descended from. Part is from the Angle/Saxon as well.

There is no such thing as a large pure race or ethnic group. There are some isolated cases, but I would bet on any person being able to prove that their blood line is exclusively from one ethnic group for centuries. It may be true for parts of China for instance, but I doubt any one of htem can proved they are a pure nationality going back 1000 years.

The funniest one of all was your opening statement. Destory the history of a country adn no amount of oil money can bring it back. What? And you are a citizen of the once the largest most powerful empire the world had ever seen and probably will ever see. The British Empire drew the bounderies of the Middle East dileberately to separate nationalities like the Kurds into different countries. They split up the Shiites who were one group into some in Iraq and some in Iran. If we were to go in and redraw the maps according to the nationalities that are there and include ecveryone it it. I dare say many of the problwems woulsd disappear. in the Middle East.

It was just too funny to here a British person lecturing Aemricans on the evil of having an Empire. Truth is yeah America now has an empire. Or

The new empire is and has been since 1945 the Anglo/American Empire. With the exception of Vietnam. Where the Amercans have been, the British have been also. Britain is the only world power left except America. No other nation has the ability to be anywhere world wide except the UK and the US and we are joined at the hip.

With two capitals: One in London and one in Washington, the British Empire lives on as the new Anglo/American Empire.
 

EnglishGentleman

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Posts
341
Media
1
Likes
2
Points
161
Location
England UK
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
None of what you say is untrue Freddie as you'll see from other posts of mine within this thread and on another thread on the same topic, I have already acknowledged most of what you say.

What I qoute as an "American" point of view is a reflection of the attitude to foreign policy that has become internationally acknowledged as reflecting the actions and intentions of your leaders and their lapdogs.

As I state in that post you just referenced, it is not the sum of all America I address, merely the followers of the cult of Bush, a selfish, thoughtless monetaristic regime, which has taken advantage of the debt it is owed for it's intervention in both world wars to involve the rest of the world in it's own empire building. And yes, where America leads, most often, to our shame, Britain meekly follows. I am as ashamed of our man Blair as I am of your president.

We in the UK have our own sins to atone for. The very slaves your nation built it's economy with, who fought their own battle for emancipation, were stolen from Africa by the British and sold to your ancestors. I lived for years in Bristol and later near Cardiff, the two centres of this heinous trade in human suffering and have seen the monuments still standing to the evil men who carried it out. We also built an economic empire supported by untold acts of brutality and murder that lasted for 200+ years

My post you refer to was motivated by my own shock at a previous poster who claimed that destroying museums was ok as long as the oil money kept flowing. It was my intention to address that solely.

America has no empire and I've not suggested they do once. We did, and it was lost, rightly so. No country has the right to destroy another's culture, and I make no defence of my ancestors perpetration of just that.

As for the origins of the American people. It is entirely true that you are descended from migrants within recent history,and consequently the country has a very short, yet full heritage. Whilst people like yourself are aware of that, yet justly proud of what exists, some are not. It is those people I address and not the US population as a whole. I apologise if I did not make that clear.

Regards WWII... I live in a city that was in parts laid flat by German bombers, parts of which are yet to be rebuilt. It is also the city the pilgrim fathers left from on their voyage to the New World. Hitler's hordes may well have won in the end without the might of America, but to describe us as having been on the edge of oblivion is perhaps a bit strong. Almost the whole of Europe was fighting alongside us, all united in their common purpose of defeating a madman and his brainwashed armies.

America certainly shortened the war and saved alot of innocent lives. If they were doing so now, not following an example closer to that of the German despot mentioned above, we would all sleep happier in our beds. Hitler blamed Jews, Bush blames Moslems, both were smokescreens.

You are a good man Freddie, and worthy of great respect. Luckily for you Bush has yet to start executing or intimidating those who oppose him like his 20th century German pedecessor. We're relying on people like you to oust him before that happens... for your sake and ours.
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
130
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Freddie53 said:
Englishgentleman,


The funniest one of all was your opening statement. Destory the history of a country adn no amount of oil money can bring it back. What? And you are a citizen of the once the largest most powerful empire the world had ever seen and probably will ever see.

I enjoyed your perspective Freddie in much of your post to EG. You and I it appears share a common ancestry and a similar take. But in defense of EG he was specifically speaking of Mr. Bush's 'urges' for us to see progress in Iraq. I don't think he was speaking as an English national when he said that rather as a considerate and thinking man.

I think he's proven he's just that.




Englishgentleman writes:
Luckily for you Bush has yet to start executing or intimidating those who oppose him like his 20th century German pedecessor. We're relying on people like you to oust him before that happens... for your sake and ours.

Truer words... your analogy is dead on EG. What most will read as a gross exaggeration I see as an outright warning.
 

Dr Rock

Experimental Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2005
Posts
3,577
Media
0
Likes
23
Points
258
Location
who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
Sexuality
Unsure
Freddie53 said:
The best Britain could have done is reached a statemate with Germany where neither country won and each decided to just regcognized each other.
... you mean like the situation that actually existed in 1941 anyways? :p

the UK and US didn't spend 3 years preparing to invade the third reich because they were afraid that the germans would invade them otherwise. that trick already came out of the bag in 1940, and failed miserably (as the commanders of both sides had predicted it would). by 1941 the invasion of the USSR and the opening of the eastern front had ensured the safety of the UK and its overseas territories from any german aggression in the foreseeable future, whereas the US mainland was an highly unrealistic goal even for the japanese, let alone the germans.

we invaded europe because the world war was completely fucking up the world economy - control of which both america and britain depended upon (and continue to depend upon) to maintain their global pre-eminence. british and american politicians were not afraid of germany's or japan's military power; they were afraid of the economic power that germany and japan would wield in the future if permitted to consolidate and stabilize their conquests.

the buzzwords concerning unjust war, obligations to our allies and so on were just standard government propaganda gloss - mobilizing your entire population is a lot easier if they believe they're working or fighting for their country, rather than working or fighting for the future of the global economy :p
 

madame_zora

Sexy Member
Joined
May 5, 2004
Posts
9,608
Media
0
Likes
51
Points
258
Location
Ohio
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Dr Rock said:
the buzzwords concerning unjust war, obligations to our allies and so on were just standard government propaganda gloss - mobilizing your entire population is a lot easier if they believe they're working or fighting for their country, rather than working or fighting for the future of the global economy :p


Of course, what's a little shameless profiteering while you're at it?

The sad thing is, that America may easily fuck herself right out of her position of power for the same reasons- arrogance and the insanity to which too much power inevitably leads.