Bush-whacked

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Imported, Dec 11, 2003.

  1. Imported

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    Inwood: Well I guess Bush wasn't a happy camper yesterday. Not that I think he's wrong to limit what countries get our money for Iraq.

    But you'd think they would hold off announcements like that till after Bush's tried to squeeze the main ones, who won't get anything, to forgive some of Saddam's debt.
     
  2. Imported

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    str8_nnj: ...seems someone in the pentagon jumped the gun
    although from what I understand subcontracts will be open to all..(to the tune of 13 billion)
    The initial 18 billion for coalition countries...don't forget that includes the hiring of thousands of iraqi's..
     
  3. Imported

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    longtimelurker: [quote author=str8_nnj link=board=99;num=1071201020;start=0#1 date=12/12/03 at 07:07:32]...seems someone in the pentagon jumped the gun
    although from what I understand subcontracts will be open to all..(to the tune of 13 billion)
    The initial 18 billion for coalition countries...don't forget that includes the hiring of thousands of iraqi's.. [/quote]

    I understand Siemens (German) has a large subcontract already granted, so I believe that is probably true.

    The hiring of Iraqis is a bit more suspicious, though - at the moment there is a huge number of workers being imported from Asia by the current contractors (mainly Halliburton I think).

    Definately - Russia has already stated that they will now demand Iraq repay their debts even earlier and I'm not sure where France is standing. I also imagine that the 'reconstruction aid chest' is going to dry up faster than a puddle in the Sahara - Canada have made moves along these lines already.

    I mean - c'mon guys, at least give the real (blatantly obvious) reason, or do Canada, France and Germany make up the new axis of evil?
     
  4. Imported

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    str8_nnj:  Some Halliburton info you may not be familiar with..

    Democrat California Congressman Henry) Waxman objects to what he calls Halliburton's "troubling" performance record, suggesting that Halliburton would not have gotten the contract had Vice President Cheney not once headed the company. But Waxman's charges — and their echoes in outraged editorials — overlook Halliburton's extensive history of defense work for earlier administrations. Indeed, far from having a "troubling" past, one could argue that Halliburton was a favorite contractor of the Clinton Pentagon.

    The first LOGCAP was awarded in 1992, as the first Bush administration (including then-Secretary of Defense Cheney) was leaving office. Four companies competed, and the winner was Brown & Root, as it was known at the time (Halliburton changed the name to Kellogg Brown & Root after an acquisition in 1998). The multi-year contract was in effect during much of the Clinton administration. During those years, Brown & Root did extensive work for the Army under the LOGCAP contract in Haiti, Somalia, and Bosnia; contract workers built base camps and provided troops with electrical power, food, and other necessities.

    In 1997, when LOGCAP was again put up for bid, Halliburton/Brown & Root lost the competition to another contractor, Dyncorp. But the Clinton Defense Department, rather than switch from Halliburton to Dyncorp, elected to award a separate, sole-source contract to Halliburton/Brown & Root to continue its work in the Balkans. According to a later GAO study, the Army made the choice because 1) Brown & Root had already acquired extensive knowledge of how to work in the area; 2) the company "had demonstrated the ability to support the operation"; and 3) changing contractors would have been costly. The Army's sole-source Bosnia contract with Brown & Root lasted until 1999. At that time, the Clinton Defense Department conducted full-scale competitive bidding for a new contract. The winner was . . . Halliburton/Brown & Root. The company continued its work in Bosnia uninterrupted.

    That work received favorable notices throughout the Clinton administration. For example, Vice President Al Gore's National Performance Review mentioned Halliburton's performance in its Report on Reinventing the Department of Defense, issued in September 1996. In a section titled "Outsourcing of Logistics Allows Combat Troops to Stick to Basics," Gore's reinventing-government team favorably mentioned LOGCAP, the cost-plus-award system, and Brown & Root, which the report said provided "basic life support services — food, water, sanitation, shelter, and laundry; and the full realm of logistics services — transportation, electrical, hazardous materials collection and disposal, fuel delivery, airfield and seaport operations, and road maintenance."

    In 2001, after the Bush administration came into office, the giant LOGCAP contract expired again and another competition was held. Once again, Halliburton won the contract, and it was under that arrangement that the Iraqi-oilfield analysis was done. As the record shows, Halliburton won big government contracts under the Clinton administration, and it won big government contracts under the Bush administration. The only difference between the two is that Henry Waxman is making allegations of favoritism in the Bush administration, while he appeared untroubled by the issue during the Clinton years.
     
  5. Imported

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    str8_nnj: ...another little tidbit of info that the Bush whackers
    seem to ignore if your talking Halliburton/Brown&Root..
    is that the beloved Lady Bird Johnson with help from hubby made millions during the Viet Nam war.....

    Hint: Do a Google search.....Read,acknowledge, and lets blame the French..or lets have a beer!!
     
  6. jay_too

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    str8_nnj

    You are right about the sole sourcing of Brown and Root by Bush No. 1 and its support in Gulf I and subsequently by the Clinton administration. But maybe you should do a Google search on Haliburton to discover that Brown and Root has been a part of the Haliburton since the 1970's or 1980's and that Brown and Root acquired Kellogg in the late 1990's (I think this was one of Cheney's acquisitons.) Not too important but if you are going to dis others for not doing their homework, maybe you should adhere to the same standards. ;D

    I think any award of a $6 billion sole source contract is likely to be criticized or a matter of concern to many objective people. News of the sub-standard management of food preparation by KBR at mess stations across Iraq provides fuel for criticism and perhaps, re-examination of whether a new contract should be negotiated. Then there is the issue of KBR charging the US Army almost 3-times the going rate in Iraq for gasoline or around $60 million. A responsible engineering management team would have worked with the US Army to develop more realistic supply specifications, but then, maybe $1.10/gallon gross profit for KBR was too hard to pass up.

    Personally, I think the contract should have penalties for poor performance and management - like double indemnity for such mistakes. To me this is not a conservative/liberal issue but one of corporate responsibility vs greed.

    jay
     
  7. Imported

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    jerkin4-10: str8...yeah...where do you think all that beef that our boys over in vietnam ate came from?...how QUICKLY we forget...when its convenient...
     
  8. Imported

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    str8_nnj: Jay....in order to dis someone don't you have to address someone? My post didn't address anyone
    I simply had an opinion, like any other person here.

    If opposing opinions in your words are dis'ing someone.
    then in your opinion everything you say...in an opinion..is right..am I correct?  And anything you say,is never a dis?

    As far as why Halliburton got what they got (contract wise) in the present is simply because no one else does
    what they do.....Yes Kuwait is offering gasoline (fuel at $1.10 I think...something close to it) but that cost does not include a war zone, plus it's cost is related to a deal that was made before any action took place in iraq..(while US forces were stationed in Kuwait
    I think it's best really not to rely solely on todays headlines.as we've seen in the past, the whole story hasn't been told.
     
  9. Imported

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    hawl: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1071201020;start=0#2 date=12/12/03 at 10:45:33]

    do Canada, France and Germany make up the new axis of evil?[/quote]Even Republicans like David Brooks are laughing about how ridiculous it is to still be haggling with countries like France. If I were a soldier in Iraq I don't think I'd share many of the giggles of pundits and bloggers from either the left or right, but then again, I don't know what keeps someone's spirits up in combat. With a close election year approaching and the appointment of James Baker (who Josh Marshall says is "like kryptonite to the neoconservatives, though they might use rougher language") I think we'll be seeing a lot less of the unilateral, "yer fer us or agin' us" stuff we've grown used to. What will comedians do for material? The blogger billmon says the neoconservatives "probably engineered this entire contracting flap as a final fuck you to Baker before they are completely swept from the corridors of power". I thought this Tolkienesque analysis was funny and neatly pointed up some of neoconservatism's "image problems"-http://billmon.org/archives/000919.html.
     
  10. Imported

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    Inwood: Well the drift has been interesting but since it has stay within range of the initial topic -- que sara sara (or something to that effect)

    Yes, Halliburton, beloved by so many politicians may have, like Newt, been overcome by smugness. That they couldn't imagine that anyone would question why they were charging so much for fuel. Yes it's expensive to ship fuel into a war zone but others are managing to ship fuel from Turkey into the same war zone for less.

    There are a few really large firms that always seem to get the jobs. A lot of it comes from the contacts they have in government. But it's sort of a egg/chicken debate. Once they got the initial contracts eons ago those firms built up expertise and more contacts. So they get a lot of the best people who want to do that type of work. So when new contracts come around they've got the people and experience which usually lands them the new jobs and the cycle starts again. Not always the best thing but not always the worst. The companies can do the jobs.

    But still sometimes those companies get a little too greedy and cocky, sort of like some politicians, and think they deserve more then what they signed up for. That's why you should think long and hard about who you vote for in the house and senate plus a few local positions since those are the people who can raise a stink and get something going. And just because this happens doesn't mean all of those companies are bad even when they do something this stupid.

    But if Halliburton is found to have done this, I personally think that the executives who allowed it to happen should be charged with treason and shot.
     
  11. Imported

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    str8_nnj: [quote author=Inwood link=board=99;num=1071201020;start=0#9 date=12/12/03 at 20:17:39] And just because this happens doesn't mean all of those companies are bad even when they do something this stupid.

    But if Halliburton is found to have done this, I personally think that the executives who allowed it to happen should be charged with treason and shot. [/quote]

    ...well said Inwood....the story continues
     
  12. jay_too

    jay_too New Member

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    [quote author=str8_nnj link=board=99;num=1071201020;start=0#4 date=12/12/03 at 17:25:34]talking Halliburton/Brown&Root..
    is that the beloved Lady Bird Johnson with help from hubby made millions during the Viet Nam war.....

    Hint: Do a Google search...[/quote]

    Sorry man...but I thought it funny that you made the above quote about using a search engine to establish facts when there were minor discrepancies in your Haliburton history.

    So I followed your advice and made a Google search for "Lady Bird" +Vietnam and "Lady Bird" +Vietnam +profit and turned up a bunch of info about Head Start, Highway Beautification, chili recipe, Conservation, the war, and some bio material but nothing about profiteering. What should I have input into the search engine? I am curious since this is before my time.

    jay
     
  13. Imported

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    Inwood: I tried a Google search to except I used "Lady Bird" Vietnam "War Profiteering". Got one site. Something about military intelligence services being the master minds behind the drug trade.

    It does mention Lady Bird but only in that the President told her he didn't really won't the nomination in '64 since he would have no say in policy.

    Look I'm only quoting the site.
     
  14. Imported

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    str8_nnj: ..LBJ's biographer Robert Caro

    http://www.jfkmontreal.com/johnson's_hidden_loyalties.htm
     
  15. Imported

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    jerkin4-10: the thing is...there are endless arguements, articles, internet searches, speculation...and most of all...different points of view...2 guys look at the same event...and often come up with completely different descriptions of what happened...so...liberals...youve got a better shot at getting ellen degenris [whatever] sleeping with a guy than convincing a conservative to switch sides...and same for conservatives...to liberals...
    each of us has a part in this society...albeit not perfect..
    governed by imperfect people...and i know...shit...im the worst...most opinionated mofo here...so...im gonna quit arguing with liberals...and just try to come up with some common ground...like...'hey...we're americans'...you know...maybe try to come up with solutions to the problems...instead of bashing the crap out of each other...i mean we all have our skeletons...*rush limbaugh*...*vince foster*...hint hint...nudge nudge...

    [jerkin puts down watermelon bashing instrument of destruction]... :)
     
  16. Imported

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    Inwood: I don't think my posts are meant to turn a conservative into a liberal. It's through the different views of a situation that hopefully we can come to some truer understanding of what goes on in our world.

    We do have things in common and things that we might best leave undisturbed (well except maybe when you want to get a particular someone's goat).

    It was the discussions with gigantikok that made me realize that I need to make sure that I can back up what I'm writing. It may be my opinion but I'm basing it on information that can be checked and possibly rebutted. By the way, has any heard from him lately?

    So don't hold back. But if someone does give you info and you can't rebutt it. Be gracious (well as close as you can get to gracious -- a snarl or something) and say the point was won. Then search like hell on the internet for something you can whack them back with.
     
  17. Imported

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    jerkin4-10: well good luck dude...i mean there is enough information and enough misdeeds by both parties out there on both sides to beat each other up for decades...
    without ever accomplishing ANYTHING...except pissing someone else off...thats my point...its counter-productive and i would hope that we would have evolved further as a species...than just 'whacking someone back'...
     
  18. Imported

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    Inwood: This is why I usually resist the temptation to tell jokes. My humor never seems to come across.

    The "whacking back" sentence should probably have read something like -- A point conceded is a part of the give and take of discussions. Jump back in and defend your positions. Just be of sure of your points before you make them and you might get some concessions in return.
     
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