Calling all amateur psychologists: homeo-erotic bromance, covert narcissism and empaths

DeclanBrent

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hi, my name is Declan. I have a true story to tell, which - having read some of the stuff in these forums - is more suited to LPSG even though it isn't about penis issues. I would appreciate any feedback from guys or gals who have observations or similar experiences, or even just psychological curiosity.

I'm 51 bi guy previously from N carolina now in michigan, in a relationship with a teacher from Germany who i've known for a decade. She knows i'm bi, we're monogamous. About 2 years ago a good looking str8 guy of 28 I met in gym befriended me. I was very flattered and attracted to him. I couldnt understand why he was so fascinated by me but he was, pouring praise on me for being a nice successful person he looked up to, and bombarded me with texts. The bromance got intense very quickly, he seemed to toy with me sexually, altho no doubt he is str8 (cheated multiply on his girlfriend but their relationship is relaxed in that way). I saw him naked a couple of times in gym and was physically attracted to him, nice uncut cock, beautiful body. But it was his personality I fell for. I told him everything about myself, my secrets, stuff i have only ever told my girlfriend. He didnt tell me much about himself as he appeared so enraptured with me that I didnt care.

One night, after a night out on the town, he stayed at my apartment as my girlfriend was away. He brought a woman back with him who he had picked up earlier, and they fucked in my spare room, her panting and moans were the hottest thing I have ever heard. At one point, I walked into the kitchen where he was pouring himself water and he said she was awesome and asked if I wanted to join them for a devils threesome. Lust got the better of me, it was the horniest I have ever been, and I said yes, yes, yes, but when he went back to ask her, she was against it, so it never happened. I am pleased, in hindsight, because my girlfriend would have been upset. I was thinking with my cock.

After 9/10 months, I noticed he was quite possessive of me. At first I was flattered, and didnt discourage it, finding it amusing. My girlfriend and I started to argue more, and my bromance poisoned my relationship. It wasnt just that she was jealous, but she met him about a few times and just plain didnt like him,even though she admitted he was very good looking and could see why I liked him. Once we met him and his girlfriend for a movie, it was a nice evening, but my girlfriend didnt like the way he spoke to his girlfriend. He started making more demands on my time, getting ugly when i said no. Then, very subtly, things changed. He started in every conversation to belittle me, critisize and use the things I'd told him about myself against me.

At first I excused it, telling myself i had lost my sense of humor and was taking myself too seriously (this is what he told me as well). But it amped up and up, some things he said were the cruelest things anybody has ever said to me (too many things to go into here, but really awful). Slowly, I started to wise up. I began to dread seeing him or talking to him. I changed my gym times and didn't answer my phone everytime he called. But I had a major problem - all the secrets I had told him would seriously embarrass me if he told anybody else (such as my bisexuality). He had even joked a couple of times: 'imagine all your friends and family know the real you'. We had a few friends in common and I had no doubt he would burn me if he I blanked him. My true breaking point came when he ignored me/didnt call for a month to 'teach me a lesson' because I had chosen to spend time with my girlfriend instead of going to have a drink with him.

During this time, I started to look into something he had once joked about himself that I hadnt believed at the time. He said he loved manipulating people (especially girls to get them into bed), and had laughed saying I was very susceptible to manipulation. Now I have always believed 'narcissism' is just a word that is bandied about to describe someone who is a bit full of themselves, like Trump. But I had never known about 'narcissistic personality disorder'. I started reading online, and to my horror, realised I was dealing with someone with full blown NPD (they are quite rare, despite the word narcissist being used freely). The more I read, the more the full horror dawned on me. We had gone through the phases: idealization (when he had poured praise on me); devaluation (the criticisms that started to come through); and discard (when he ignored me). He has no empathy, is openly manipulative and has very few friends, who he bitches about, and he is cruel, using things he knows against me to get a reaction, which is known as narcissistic supply.

But wait... arent narcissists supposed to be showboats who are flashy and loud and larger than life? That is what I had always thought. My friend, though, was quiet, deferential, introverted. How could he be narcissistic? Reading further, I discovered there are 'covert narcissists' which are even more dangerous because you dont see them coming. I hadnt seen this one coming! A first indicator of a 'covert' is that they are victims - everything is everybody else's fault, the world is against them, they are quick to take offense, and truly believe they are superior and their brilliance is unrecognized. This was him, 100 percent.

The moment I knew he has NPD, I had a dilemma. The only way to get rid of these people is to cut them out completely. Unless they are family or ex spouse or fellow workers or they have 'dirt' on you - in which case, you have to use something called 'gray rock method'. This means you tell them nothing except the essential facts, no drama, no passion, no complaining, just dry, boring facts. When you deal with them, you imagine you are observing a parasite under a microscope and instead of being injured by their bite, you become fascinated that you are able to observe someone with a terrible disease up close. By doing this you 'bore' them out of your life. They want 'supply' and when you fail to provide it, they move on. And by not 'blanking' them or rejecting them, you allow them to exit the relationship on their terms, thinking they have won. This means you don't trigger their 'narcissistic injury' which leads to 'narcissistic rage', which is when they take revenge by doing anything legal to hurt you back.

'Gray rock' method worked for me. My friend became bored, stopped calling, and I havent heard from him in several months. He works for a large accountancy firm and is being transferred to another branch out of state. I hope I never hear from him again.

BUT... just as me and my girlfriend were getting back on our feet (we went to visit her family in Germany and had a wonderful time, it healed our wounds, although I dont think the damage will ever be completely repaired), an acquaintance from my past contacted me out of the blue. We had worked on a contract together five years ago and he had looked me up to reconnect. And you guessed it - he's exactly my type, even looks like my previous friend, in his twenties, beautiful body, good looking, very straight. The biggest difference is that he is more outgoing and confident than my old friend, he already has his own business in biotechnology and is going to go very far in life. Why he would be interested in hanging out with someone 20 years older, I dont know, but he is displaying the exact admiration I saw in the beginning from my previous friend. We have now been hanging out twice a week, playing squash and going for a drink. He seems to be a really nice guy but I am now very suspicious of anybody his age developing this type of interest in me. Could he be another narcissist? Am I an empath, and that's why these young guys are pursuing my friendship, because they subconsciously sense that about me? It doesnt help that I am more 'open' to them than I otherwise would be because they are young and sexy.

Anyway, this is my story so far. I would love to hear any comments and observations. If youve made it this far down the page, I am grateful!
Declan
 

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My rule is to never divulge anything I wouldn't tell my (adult) daughters to any new friends. You were very lucky once. The odds of this new friend being another lunatic are the same as the odds that the first guy would be, so be careful. There's no reason that implores you to divulge secrets about yourself to platonic friends. And while keeping a tally of give and take is a poor measure of friendship, given your past close call and your present wariness, it would be wise to see whether this guy makes any gesture of divulging confidences to you first. It wouldn't hurt to be alert to whether he is actively seeking confidences from you. And check out the veracity of whatever nuggets he tosses your way if possible...sociopaths who know what you know will hand out "secrets" to build intimacy, but most are lies that wouldn't actually hurt them anyway.
 
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It doesnt help that I am more 'open' to them than I otherwise would be because they are young and sexy.

^This sets off alarm bells because it's the hook that draws you in--sexual attraction. If he's an ugly bugger or lacking in charm or self esteem you wouldn't give him the time of day.

but I am now very suspicious of anybody his age developing this type of interest in me.

Turn it around and own it: perhaps you should be more suspicious of developing such a strong interest in a man his age if he's never going to go to bed with you because he's straight. Consider that your interest is flattering him as well.

How do you tell if he's NPD or a sociopath? You already know the answer: break some of your squash and drink dates and see how he reacts.

I'm 57. If a young sexy man flatters me with that much attention I'm going to ask if his attraction is sexual. More often than not it has been. I don't waste time wondering. I don't spend a lot of time hanging with someone I want to bed if he's not interested. I already have circles of platonic friends and acquaintances.
 
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I'm not convinced.
You are a 51 yr old man who wants admiration, attention and flattery from considerably younger men.
Your partner is a very minor character in your story, you would rather tell us about all of the attention you get from hot young men, and how attractive they are.
No you're not an empath. You are a whiney 51 yr old man who needs to accept some responsibility for your own actions - not anyone else's, just your own. It's honestly hard to tell who the narcissist is from your version of events.
 

DeclanBrent

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I'm not convinced.
You are a 51 yr old man who wants admiration, attention and flattery from considerably younger men.
Your partner is a very minor character in your story, you would rather tell us about all of the attention you get from hot young men, and how attractive they are.
No you're not an empath. You are a whiney 51 yr old man who needs to accept some responsibility for your own actions - not anyone else's, just your own. It's honestly hard to tell who the narcissist is from your version of events.

Yep, I hear you, amd I agree with you. I have seriously thought about my own role as a narcissist in this (and come to the conclusion that I feel a lot of empathy and therefore am probably not). But trust me, your judgment is not new to me.
 
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Yep, I hear you, amd I agree with you. I have seriously thought about my own role as a narcissist in this (and come to the conclusion that I feel a lot of empathy and therefore am probably not). But trust me, your judgment is not new to me.
There is no evidence of that empathy in your lengthy post.
 

DeclanBrent

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^This sets off alarm bells because it's the hook that draws you in--sexual attraction. If he's an ugly bugger or lacking in charm or self esteem you wouldn't give him the time of day.

Turn it around and own it: perhaps you should be more suspicious of developing such a strong interest in a man his age if he's never going to go to bed with you because he's straight. Consider that your interest is flattering him as well.

How do you tell if he's NPD or a sociopath? You already know the answer: break some of your squash and drink dates and see how he reacts.

I'm 57. If a young sexy man flatters me with that much attention I'm going to ask if his attraction is sexual. More often than not it has been. I don't waste time wondering. I don't spend a lot of time hanging with someone I want to bed if he's not interested. I already have circles of platonic friends and acquaintances.

Thank you for your input. Are you saying he may be sexually attracted to me, even though he's straight? And what do you mean that I already know the answer?
 

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Why he would be interested in hanging out with someone 20 years older, I dont know, but he is displaying the exact admiration I saw in the beginning from my previous friend. We have now been hanging out twice a week, playing squash and going for a drink. He seems to be a really nice guy but I am now very suspicious of anybody his age developing this type of interest in me. Could he be another narcissist? Am I an empath, and that's why these young guys are pursuing my friendship, because they subconsciously sense that about me? It doesnt help that I am more 'open' to them than I otherwise would be because they are young and sexy.

Anyway, this is my story so far. I would love to hear any comments and observations. If youve made it this far down the page, I am grateful!
Declan
You should know whether or not you are an empath. You seem well read on the subject. To me, the surest sign is how others affect your energy level. While I've read a lot about it, and I can see how people with narcissistic personality disorder and even borderline personality disorder would attract and be attracted to empaths, I don't think it has to be the case. I have attracted a lot of sick people. Bi-polat slips in a lot. A sociopath got through once. But borderlines, and narcs wear me right the fuck out. They make me sleepy. They make me sad. They always crop up when I'm having intense emotions, whether positive or negative. In high school I called them emotional vampires. I didn't know about these illnesses then.

Another part of my experience is this. People find me. Strangers tell me secrets. Strangers will also cry in my arms, which I still find disturbing. Lost animals choose me to return them home.

There are other facets of my experience I prefer not to share here. Very few people know, and I've definitely told at least one person I should not have told.

Every victim of a mentally ill person is not an empath, and every empath is not easily victimized. Not everyone person who has been abused by these kinds of people will be abused by more of them.

You fear the clinical narcissist. I fear the sociopath. It's the same cycle. Sociopaths figure out who they have to be for you to love and accept them. Once you love them, they use use your love to torture you. They feel nothing. Long after you know what happened to you, you're still in love. Now, if you're me, you ignore that love until it rots on the vine and move on with your life. If you're me, you also wonder if the next nice person is also too good to be real. I definitely relate to your experience. I am so sorry you're living with this trauma. No, I do not think you are very likely an empath.
 
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I truly feel it, sorry that it doesn't come across. My girlfriend means the world to me and the pain we've been through has been mutual.
See? That was the kind of thing that a robot attempting to emulate empathy would say.
I've known two diagnosed narcissists and both could have done better than that.

What about the young man?
 

DeclanBrent

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There is no evidence of that empathy in your lengthy post.
Ha, and Im slightly perplexed by your judgment. I've been loyal amd honest with my gf. Yes, I have complicated sexual feelings, but I've been honest, amd not strayed. Im sure, given that you come from the sexially liberated UK, that you know many many male dogs who haven't been that honest with their partners? I'm at least honest in exploring my potential faults
 
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Ha, and Im slightly perplexed by your judgment. I've been loyal amd honest with my gf. Yes, I have complicated sexual feelings, but I've been honest, amd not strayed. Im sure, given that you come from the sexially liberated UK, that you know many many male dogs who haven't been that honest with their partners? I'm at least honest in exploring my potential faults
I did not question whether you were monogamous. I also don't purport to speak for the UK.
 

DeclanBrent

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You should know whether or not you are an empath. You seem well read on the subject. To me, the surest sign is how others affect your energy level. While I've read a lot about it, and I can see how people with narcissistic personality disorder and even borderline personality disorder would attract and be attracted to empaths, I don't think it has to be the case. I have attracted a lot of sick people. Bi-polat slips in a lot. A sociopath got through once. But borderlines, and narcs wear me right the fuck out. They make me sleepy. They make me sad. They always crop up when I'm having intense emotions, whether positive or negative. In high school I called them emotional vampires. I didn't know about these illnesses then.

Another part of my experience is this. People find me. Strangers tell me secrets. Strangers will also cry in my arms, which I still find disturbing. Lost animals choose me to return them home.

There are other facets of my experience I prefer not to share here. Very few people know, and I've definitely told at least one person I should not have told.

Every victim of a mentally ill person is not an empath, and every empath is not easily victimized. Not everyone person who has been abused by these kinds of people will be abused by more of them.

You fear the clinical narcissist. I fear the sociopath. It's the same cycle. Sociopaths figure out who they have to be for you to love and accept them. Once you love them, they use use your love to torture you. They feel nothing. Long after you know what happened to you, you're still in love. Now, if you're me, you ignore that love until it rots on the vine and move on with your life. If you're me, you also wonder if the next nice person is also too good to be real. I definitely relate to your experience. I am so sorry you're living with this trauma. No, I do not think you are very likely an empath.

A fantastic response. If I'm not an empath, am I a closet narcissist? And what are you?
 
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DeclanBrent

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I did not question whether you were monogamous. I also don't purport to speak for the UK.
But yet you seem profoundly unsympathetic. Trust me, I'm not seeking sympathy. Yet, you seem quite harsh in your judgment, and I'm merely curious as to what you think I am (a question in itself that would surely come from a narcissist) and whether - in actually answering my question - you think I could be attracting undesirables?
 
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But yet you seem profoundly unsympathetic.
Correct.
Trust me, I'm not seeking sympathy.
You are painting yourself as the victim in this story, and layering it on quite thick.
Yet, you seem quite harsh in your judgment,
Damn right. You are a 51 yr old man who actively seeks the adulation of men in their 20's. The power dynamics are generously tipped in your favour.
and I'm merely curious as to what you think I am
At best, a tit. At worst, a predator.
and whether - in actually answering my question - you think I could be attracting undesirables?
Possibly, but then you could just choose to hang around with other people your own age for completely platonic interaction and friendship, couldn't you? Then there would be nothing undesirable about any of it, and no-one would have anything to hold over you would they? ;)
 
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DeclanBrent

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Correct.

You are painting yourself as the victim in this story, and layering it on quite thick.

Damn right. You are a 51 yr old man who actively seeks the adulation of men in their 20's. The power dynamics are generously tipped in your favour.

At best, a tit. At worst, a predator.

Possibly, but then you could just choose to hang around with other people your own age for completely platonic interaction and friendship, couldn't you? Then there would be nothing undesirable about any of it, and no-one would have anything to hold over you would they? ;)

Thanks for your input. Predator is very strong, I didn't seek out their friendship or pursue it - that came from them. But the rest gives me plenty to think about. See, I'm really not the narcisstic jerk you clearly think I am
 

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@DeclanBrent I appreciate you putting it out there like he did. Takes guts to do that. That said...

Your thread title kind of set the tone for your Opening Post. Like you set out to make sure to cover all the bases in your writings about two young men in your life and their psychological make-ups. Justifying how fucked up they were, if you will. So you don't have to expend any of your psychological energy inward. On how fucked up you just might be. I see a lot of projection. I also see personal angst. And did I detect some concern (shame maybe?) about being bi-sexual?

Regardless, what I read is someone who has no idea who he is. I say that because you spent the majority of your post "psycho analyzing" two different young men and their motives toward/with you. What struck me was you seem to think you've kind of got that all figured out. But maybe you really don't. What if it's you you really need to figure out?

I'm just gonna leave it here. I'm not even gonna try and unpack the rest of your post. There's so much there. Perhaps for future discussion. But I think I've said enough.

Regardless, I do wish you well.
 
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Thanks for your input. Predator is very strong, I didn't seek out their friendship or pursue it - that came from them. But the rest gives me plenty to think about. See, I'm really not the narcisstic jerk you clearly think I am
No, I don't see.

In this post you have again placed all responsibility on the kids - they are kids. Lots of people your age have kids who are in their 20's.