can anyone be gay?

[fortiesfun]

To the OP:

Despite the plethora of facetious answers, what you are asking is actually an enormously sophisticated question. Answering requires setting out some definitions and limits. Here is my attempt at a short version: Almost everyone is physically capable of sexually interacting with others of their gender over a sustained period of time. A smaller number, but still a functioning majority of society, could probably also do so psychologically.

If that is all you are asking, then yes, anyone can be "gay."

The kickback your are getting is that most gay people don't identify primarily with what they do, but with what they desire. That is, sexual behavior is not all there is to it for them.

If one accomplishes the sexual behavior by imaging a cross-gender partner, fantasizes about the other sex, and thinks of themselves as "straight," (as in the scenario of the person in prison proposed above) many would argue that they are not really being gay but just having homosexual relations as a substitute.

No simple answer to your question unless you are willing to accept a strictly behavioral answer, and overlook any question of why someone who was not so inclined would want to try.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Alternatively, what if you shove the Village People up yer ass?

Oh, he's ready for that.
Even has a song ready.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

No simple answer to your question unless you are willing to accept a strictly behavioral answer, and overlook any question of why someone who was not so inclined would want to try.

You always were the best on this question, Doc.

 

[maxcok]

Depends on what your definition of "is" is.

Well my definition of what gay is, might not be what your definition of gay is.

Depends on what's considered gay.

Having sex with the same gender?

It really isn't your actions that determine your sexuality, it's what's inside that counts.

This. Sex with the same gender isn't gay if its only an action, if you don't feel gay inside then surely you're not gay. right?

You tell me. What are you then if you're voluntarily having sex with the same gender? 99% straight?

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

You tell me. What are you then if you're having sex with the same gender? 99% straight?

Over the long haul, conceivably.
(Not likely.)

 

[maxcok]

Over the long haul, conceivably.
(Not likely.)

I hear tell that cruising the length of de Nile is a pretty long haul.

 

[haulthat]

Yes, anyone can be gay if you mean any man or woman can fuck someone of the same sex. That is a choice that anyone can make. No, anyone can not be gay if you mean being more sexually attracted to, and having a clear preference for the same sex. Usually when people who identify themselves, who aren't clearly full of crap, as straight but have had sexual encounters with someone of the same sex it was a 1 off thing.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I hear tell that cruising the length of de Nile is a pretty long haul.

I think people can be having sex with members of the same gender and really be very straight.
In prison, for example.
These guys get out of prison and, most often, are wanting to hook up with a woman.
Because that's their real impulse.
So I'm not saying that people who are having sex with their own gender are typically 99 percent straight. I say only that it can happen.
Where did that 99 percent straight come from, anyway?
Alx's percentages, presumably.
But he hasn't said he's having sex with men.

 

[maxcok]

I think people can be having sex with members of the same gender and really be very straight.
In prison, for example.

The operative word in my prior post highlighted below:

You tell me. What are you then if you're voluntarily having sex with the same gender? 99% straight?

To clarify, I would consider being incarcerated in an all male environment with a lack of other sexual outlets to be a less than voluntary situation, not to mention the cultural pressures on the inside and the guys who are raped or coerced. More often than not, when prison sex is brought up in these discussions it is an exceptional circumstance at best, if not a red herring and a cliche'. I think what we're really talking about is desire, not sexual opportunism.

These guys get out of prison and, most often, are wanting to hook up with a woman.
Because that's their real impulse.

I don't doubt that. I also don't know if there are have been any definitive studies on this, and collecting the data would be problematic to say the least, but anecdotally speaking I believe that a significant percentage of predominantly or exclusively straight men who are introduced to M/M sex in prison continue the behavior to some degree after their release, even while they also pursue M/F sex and relationships. I've encountered several of them on this board and IRL. Many also end up sliding further down the Kinsey scale. Voluntarily.

Where did that 99 percent straight come from, anyway?
Alx's percentages, presumably.
But he hasn't said he's having sex with men.

I have no idea what Alx's sexual experience with men is. Perhaps his posting history would reveal something, but I wasn't interested enough to investigate. My comment was not about his sexual activities per se. I was making a general statement about a definition/rationalization of sexual orientation that is all too common on this board, and I presume among the general 'straight' male population. I'd venture to say that at least 99% of the self-identified 99% to 100% "straight" men who have sex with men, or persistent fantasies about having sex with men, share this same definition/rationalization. They believe (or pretend) that their behavior is exceptional because they are not pursuing a "relationship" with another man, or they're only interested in cocks, not the men attached. Therefore, their 99-100% orientation is in no way compromised. Hence my sly denial comment.

So I'm not saying that people who are having sex with their own gender are typically 99 percent straight. I say only that it can happen.

I'm saying that however a man defines his orientation, the act of engaging in sex with another man obviously cannot be defined as straight, hence the man who desires, fantasizes about, or voluntarily engages in M/M sex to any appreciable degree cannot in a rational world be considered 99-100% straight. Nevertheless, the world is full of men who date and marry women while having in sex with men on the downlow, sometimes more than they have sex with women, and they still define themselves as 99-100 percenters, defensively so. It's an extremely common rationalization, and it's illogical and just plain crazy, imho. It's tantamount to saying "I'm a total vegetarian. I only eat steak on Fridays because I like the taste and I need the extra protein, but I really prefer vegetables."

Over the long haul, conceivably.
(Not likely.)

Hardly if ever likely in my observation.
Perpetuating that notion just feeds the sort of exceptional rationalization I'm talking about.

 

[fortiesfun]

You always were the best on this question, Doc.

You are very kind. It is endlessly fascinating to me as a question but I have never encountered it in quite this form before. Usually a poster wants to know "if it makes you gay to [do this or that]," but wondering if it is possible for anyone is a new perspective on it.

After thinking about it a bit, I am wondering if the poster is asking something like, "Is homosexuality biologically pre-determined, or is it something that you can become through socialization or exposure or whatever?" Of course that is a big debate right now, but perhaps he wants to know if he could do it just until he needs glasses, so to speak...

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

To clarify, I would consider being incarcerated in an all male environment with a lack of other sexual outlets to be a less than voluntary situation, not to mention the cultural pressures on the inside and the guys who are raped or coerced. More often than not, when prison sex is brought up in these discussions it is the exception, if not a red herring and a cliche'. I think what we're really talking about is desire, not sexual opportunism.

Being incarcerated is involuntary, but the decision to have sex can be voluntary. (And sometimes isn't, of course.)
I don't think it's a red herring at all.
I think we are talking about sexual opportunism.
And those who, upon leaving prison, revert to exclusive interest in and pursuit of women demonstrate that a person who, on any reasonable calculus, is really heterosexual, can have sexual release with a member of his own gender.

I believe that a significant percentage of otherwise predominantly straight men who are introduced to M/M sex in prison continue the behavior to some degree after their release, even while they also pursue M/F sex and relationships.

These would not be the subset that I'm referring to.

I have no idea what Alx's sexual experience with men is. Perhaps his posting history would reveal something, but I wasn't interested enough to investigate. My comment was not about his sexual activities per se. I was making a general statement about a definition/rationalization of sexual orientation that is all too common on this board, and I presume among the general 'straight' male population. I'd say that at least 99% of the self-identified 99% to 100% "straight" men who have sex with men, or persistent fantasies about having sex with men, share this same definition/rationalization. They believe (or pretend) that their behavior is exceptional because they are not pursuing a "relationship" with another man, or they're only interested in cocks, therefore their 99-100% orientation is in no way compromised. Hence my sly denial comment.

I think that all kinds of straight men do think a lot about cocks. And might even wish some kind of contact with a man, to experience another man's cock.
But they have no romantic connection with men ... don't in fact want what we narrowly mean by 'a relationship' with men.
So their heterosexuality is not much called into question, for me at least, by their stated curiosity.
Can they claim 99 percent straightness?
Well, I wonder if anyone can.
So if you are just saying that that number seems unreasonably high, I would have no problem agreeing with you.
I don't know how to quantify these things.
But I do think that, even if 99 percent is too high, such men can in many cases still be very straight indeed.
If their "curiosity" reveals itself in a rather continuous sexual involvement with men, then indeed they are somewhere around Luxor, with a lot of de Nile ahead of them.

I'm saying that however a man defines his orientation, the act of engaging in sex with another man obviously cannot be defined as straight, hence the man who desires, fantasizes about, or voluntarily engages in M/M sex to any appreciable degree cannot in a rational world be considered 99-100% straight.

Well, I've conceded that that number is too high.
I think sexuality, even among the straightest, is more fluid than that.

Nevertheless, the world is full of men who date and marry women while engaging in sex with men on the downlow, sometimes more than they have sex with women, and they still define themselves as 99-100 percenters, defensively so. It's extremely common, and it's just plain crazy. IMHO.

A man who continues to have a lot of sex with men while having a relationship with a woman would not plausibly be 99 percent straight.
No argument on that.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

... perhaps he wants to know if he could do it just until he needs glasses, so to speak...

Haha.
A nice 'Doc' touch.

 

[fortiesfun]

I don't doubt that. I also don't know if there are have been any definitive studies on this, and collecting the data would be problematic to say the least, but anecdotally speaking I believe that a significant percentage of predominantly straight men who are introduced to M/M sex in prison continue the behavior to some degree after their release, even while they also pursue M/F sex and relationships. I've encountered several of them on this board and IRL. Many also end up sliding further down the Kinsey scale. Voluntarily.

You are right, there are no definitive studies (as far as I know, but I regularly read this literature) but I also know of nothing that would support this contention. This particular assertion sound like folklore - in the realm of "don't cross your eyes because they might get stuck."

Mind you, I am not doubting that you may know of some anecdotal evidence that some str8 men do continue to have M/M sex after it is no longer the only real alternative they have, but that it is a more significant percentage than the amount of M/M sex unincarcerated (but allegedly str8) men are having is dubious from what little evidence there is out there.

 

[Uslidenme]

You guys talk as though there is no such thing as bi which is different from gay

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

You guys talk as though there is no such thing as bi which is different from gay

I can see you saying that.
We're talking about people who are claiming to be 99 percent straight while fantasizing about and even having sexual contact with guys.
If we're saying that, in some cases, there will be a considerable gay component in their sexuality, then we're in effect saying those men are not straight but bi.
(Unless their 'heterosexuality' is completely bogus, in which case they would be predominantly gay.)
But you're right, of course, Uslidenme.

 

[fortiesfun]

You guys talk as though there is no such thing as bi which is different from gay

Yep, perfectly astute. Although I have long been a fan of the brilliant Marjorie Garber's statement that "bi" is not a category, but a category buster, in this case I do think the discussion would make more sense if we acknowledged the reality that most men who have sex with men also have sex with women. They overwhelming identify as either gay or straight, but "bi" is a more accurate objective description of the majority of males alive today.

Let's not get started on lesbians...

 

[maxcok]

You are right, there are no definitive studies (as far as I know, but I regularly read this literature) but I also know of nothing that would support this contention. This particular assertion sound like folklore - in the realm of "don't cross your eyes because they might get stuck."

Well the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, is it? I stated at the outset that it's what "I believe" referring to an unspecified percentage based on "anecdotal" evidence. I've made no rash "assertions" or "contentions" whatsoever, only general logical conclusions drawn from personal experience, admittedly unsupported by hard data. As I also stated, gathering this sort of data from ex-cons, much less reliable data, would be problematic to say the least. So neither of us really knows what the reality is, do we?

Mind you, I am not doubting that you may know of some anecdotal evidence that some str8 men do continue to have M/M sex after it is no longer the only real alternative they have, but that it is a more significant percentage than the amount of M/M sex unincarcerated (but allegedly str8) men are having is dubious from what little evidence there is out there.

Why are you so quick to say it's dubious? What are you basing your judgement on in the absence of evidence? All I know is what I've learned from ex-cons. Admittedly, I don't have a huge sample to draw from because a) being an ex-con is not something guys typically advertise, b) guys who identify as predominantly straight tend to keep their M/M liasons under wraps, and c) meeting an ex-con who's also open to talking about his M/M sexual experiences either in prison or after release is not an everyday event to say the least. Nevertheless, based on my anecdotal observations, I think it's not unreasonable to speculate that there's a higher percentage of men, the majority of whom may be predominantly straight, who after being introduced to M/M sex in a prison are inclined to continue engaging in M/M sexual activity on the outside vs. men in the general population. This is based not only on what they've told me about themselves, but also on what they've told me about their fellow ex-cons.

Could it be some sort of psychological conditioning? Could it be that what they were 'forced' (literally or figuratively) to experience it in prison they came to enjoy to the extent they wanted to continue after release vs. men on the outside who might be curious but never have the opportunity or take the first step? Could it be because criminals are more likely by nature to be risk takers, or some other psychological or psychosexual trait peculiar to this population? Could it be a form of overcompensation or acting out? I wouldn't begin to speculate, but I don't think any of those possible contributing factors are farfetched. These are some of the explanations I've wondered about after listening to ex-cons describe their experiences, and there could easily be others besides. I have known of fellas who were forced to bottom in prison for example, who after being released reacted (compensated?) by becoming aggressive dominant tops acting out rape scenarios. I've also known fellas who turned to M/M prostitution after release, and though they initially maintained a hetero identity in their personal lives, increasingly drifted toward the homo end of the scale.

As I stated at the outset, I'll state again, it's all anecdotal. However, I think the premise and the phenomena bear looking into if one were so inclined and had the resources and a reliable sample to study. I also think it deserves a little more consideration than your dismissive 'stuck cross-eyed' analogy, which any fool over the age of five knows to be false.

You guys talk as though there is no such thing as bi which is different from gay

People like to dwell on polarities these days and ignore the sliding scales and the grey areas, particularly where sex (and politics) are concerned, particularly where male heterosexuality is concerned. Waiting for cklover to come swooping in about now. I can't speak for anyone else, but excepting my first satirical post, all my subsequent posts have been focused on the middle ground, not the poles. Maybe I was too abstruse for you to get that?

 

[D_Jimmy Jammer]

It's a rare privilege, and you have to be approved by the Gay Mafia.

:biggrin1:
I agree. No.

 

[OCMuscleJock]

Yah...it's not a choice. I mean, really. Why would ANYONE choose to have a harder life. It's just how you are...no changing it.


HOWEVER, the Gay Mafia does have a lot of say. Some shadowy Don, makes all the rules. I mean...EyeShadowy Don.

 

[polostar]

Gay means two different things...a lot of what it's come to mean is political and has nothing to do with sex.

There are gays, but not everyone who has some same-sex experimentation is gay.