Can Muslims Be Good Americans

madame_zora

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The entire wretched e-mail has been posted four times so far. More than enough. Consider revising your "Reply" metholodogies, people.


Oh dahlink, Lordpendragon's was a re-write, I really hope you read it, it was a good one.

Other than that, yes it would be nice if people didn't re-quote very long posts to make a reply.
 

Hunt3ed

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I'm South African , British by Descent, Zimabwean by birth, I owe my life to a lot of individuals, some are christian , some are muslem, some are Hindu. What can I say aout this topic, except obviously it has take a lot more than a religion to be an American and both sides can toss the same arguments. From my point of view both sides are the loosers. People are more important than their religious faith. When your faith transcends your decency as human being then you have lost your personal self respect as an individual and you quite clearly cannot tolerate any other individual, with any other view than your own.

I'll take my own view, I'm not backing any religion, I'll treat every one with the same respect they treat me as an individual and as Human being. Religion can be a healthy thing, but at its extremes neither Islam nor Christianty can be right, and neither should be allowed to be victor over the other. We can live as good neighbours, whether you choose; Christian or Muslem; to be good a neighbour is entirely up to you.

The Majority of the worlds population just want to get on with their lives with out being shot at, tortured, or maimed, in order to provide for them selves and thier families as best they can. What will afect America and the Islamic world far more than the extremes of religeous faith, is global water shortages by 2050, shouldn't all our energies be directed in a positive direction for a humanitarian result, and not dictated to by some old mouldy bits of paper called the Bible or the Koran.
 

DC_DEEP

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The five pillars have analogous beliefs in christianity, too.

Shahadah: basic tenet or creed or affirmation of faith. The muslim affirms that allah is the one true god, and that muhammed was his divine messenger. The christian often uses the nicene creed or apostles' creed, and affirms god as the one true god, and jesus christ as his son and manifestion on earth.

Salah: the requirement to pray. for the muslim, it's kind of rote, and specific - the words, the number of times per day, et cetera. for the christian, it is more loosely based, but still required.

Zakah: alms-giving, is the practice of charitable giving by muslims based on accumulated wealth, and is obligatory for all who are able to do so. It is considered to be a personal responsibility for muslims to ease economic hardship for others and eliminate inequality. zakah consists of spending a fixed portion of one's wealth for the benefit of the poor or needy, including slaves, debtors, travelers, and others. A muslim may also donate more as an act of voluntary charity (sadaqah), in order to achieve additional divine reward. christians are required to tithe.

Sawm: ritual fasting or repentant fasting. practiced by muslims able to do so. exempt are those for whom it would create a hardship, such as nursing mothers, pre-adolescent children, those with health conditions such as diabetes. christians are sometimes urged, but usually not required, to practice ritual fasting or repentant fasting.

Hajj: pilgrimmage. required, for muslims who are able, at least once in their lifetime. encouraged, but not required in christianity.

The holy books of both religions contain contradictory commands: it is both required AND forbidden to murder, to kill innocents, to marry outside the tribe. Both books forbid profanity, gossip, lying, stealing.

It's when a bin laden or a phelps or a robertson pervert the religion that it starts doing its very best harm. That harm is amplified when self-professed devotees believe their false prophets.
 

B_big dirigible

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I don't think I've seen an editorial page, or any other board than LPSG, which tries to address current bad bahavior (and the bad bahaviors - beheadings, bombings, hateful rants from the pulpit - are indisputable) by Muslims (and the offender's religion is also indisputable) with counter-tirades about the ancient history of some other religion.

It makes about as much sense as a claim that we shouldn't try to do anything about AIDS, because the influenza epidemic of 1918-1920 was far more deadly.

If you want to reword the original e-mail into a rant about Christians, super, but don't then truncate the end. "Obama is a Christian" etc etc - perhaps the worst thing you could say about anybody, according to some here. The conclusion should then be even more conclusive than the intended implication of the original e-mail.
 
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Could my eyes roll any farther in the back of my fucking head?? No!! It cannot.
 

Lordpendragon

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Uhhh No - the point is not to bash anyone, simply to show that if you want to be a twat about someone else it is very easy to do so in the same language. Bigotry has no race religion or sex.

But sorry - I have to go staple my foreskin to the table.
 

DC_DEEP

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I don't think I've seen an editorial page, or any other board than LPSG, which tries to address current bad bahavior (and the bad bahaviors - beheadings, bombings, hateful rants from the pulpit - are indisputable) by Muslims (and the offender's religion is also indisputable) with counter-tirades about the ancient history of some other religion.
Have you ever had any managerial training? I know there are a few who trash various religions or all religions, but I see less of that than you continually harp on. You seem to think it's fine to trash one religion, but not another. Back to the managerial training: the mantra is "focus on the behavior, not the individual." I've been trying to use the same logic, but from a different perspective. Focus on the individual, not the whole group. I'm no big fan of any religion, but the terrorists no more represent islam, than fred phelps or jimmy swaggart represent christianity. How about if you try to be a little more egalitarian, and chastise the islam-bashers as much as you do the christianity-bashers?
 

Freddie53

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Very interesting comments.

However, the main point of the e-mail is escaping people. The tirade was used for one purpose and one purpose only to set up the reader for the conclusion.

ABAMA IS A MUSLIM

Do you see the word in red as in RED FLAG?

The fundie propaganda machine is already at work.

The whole point of the thread was to show how the fundies have already started trying to paint Democratic candidates. In due time this will get around to the vast majority of fundies.

It is a cool calcultating move and it is all free advertising to boot.

I am a mainline Christian, I found the the rewrite funny and wish people could see the two side by side. Maybe people would start thinking.

Nothing would plase me more than to see the "lefties" here and around use the free internet to do the same to the fundie political machine...
 

rob_just_rob

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This sort of shit is one of the many things (e.g. push-polling) wrong with the modern political process.

Too bad so many people can't be bothered to actually do some research on the candidates and issues before voting (if they vote at all). A little knowledge, and emails such as that one would be exposed to general ridicule, instead of being a potentially decisive voter manipulation tactic.
 

SpeedoGuy

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Too bad so many people can't be bothered to actually do some research on the candidates and issues before voting (if they vote at all).

That's asking alot from people who are too self absorbed to even put down their cell phones and coffee cups while driving. Given that, what makes you think they'd read a bit?
 

Freddie53

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That's quite a leap of faith. All you know is that it's propaganda. You're guessing as to whose.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it must be...... a duck.

Most of the time.

BD you do you suppose started this e-mail? A mainline Christian, a Democrat, ......yeah right. Regardless who wrote it, it will be the fundie religous political right that will send it circling around the globe over and over.
 

playainda336

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Any Muslim will tell you...to be a good Muslim, you must first be a good Jew and a good Christian.

Not to mention that Allah in Islam is NOT the Moon God of Arabia. Allah means "He that is." very similar to the name for the God of the Christians and Jews who is named YHWH, which means "I am that I am."

Islam begins with the story of Abraham and his two sons, Issac and Ishmael. Abraham told God not to bless Issac without blessing Ishmael, so God said that he would bless Ishmael to have 12 sons and unto them will become a great nation. That Nation is Islam.

Muslims follow most of the Jew/Christian prophets as their own. The stories of the Old and New Testament are in the Quran as well.

The holy war? Propaganda. Bullshite. They're fighting over land. Christians should have no business in that. If anything, Christians should be promoting the ideals of Christ and helping to end it peacefully.

But instead we're bombing them all...because we're big and bad and powerful! And we have the big guns!

._.;

I'm sooooo ashamed of my country sometimes, but God Bless America!

._.;;;
 

JustAsking

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Any ...Not to mention that Allah in Islam is NOT the Moon God of Arabia. Allah means "He that is." very similar to the name for the God of the Christians and Jews who is named YHWH, which means "I am that I am."

Islam begins with the story of Abraham and his two sons, Issac and Ishmael. Abraham told God not to bless Issac without blessing Ishmael, so God said that he would bless Ishmael to have 12 sons and unto them will become a great nation. That Nation is Islam.

Muslims follow most of the Jew/Christian prophets as their own. The stories of the Old and New Testament are in the Quran as well.

The holy war? Propaganda. Bullshite. They're fighting over land. Christians should have no business in that. If anything, Christians should be promoting the ideals of Christ and helping to end it peacefully.

But instead we're bombing them all...because we're big and bad and powerful! And we have the big guns!

._.;

I'm sooooo ashamed of my country sometimes, but God Bless America!

._.;;;
What he said. And yes, the Catholic Cathecism states that they believe that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God of Abraham. I am not sure about other denominations, but I don't think that is disputed amongst mainstream denominations.
 

madame_zora

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What he said. And yes, the Catholic Cathecism states that they believe that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God of Abraham. I am not sure about other denominations, but I don't think that is disputed amongst mainstream denominations.


Well duh, and if you want to get even stickier, the only difference between the religious and the non-religious is what they call the beginning of Man. While a religious person may claim we were created by a personified God (that is, a God with a name and a described personality)
and non-religious person might feel better saying the Earth was created by a natural process, and the different forms of life developed from that original event. We're really only arguing about whether God is a process or a personality. Not much of an argument, really. Bah, who cares? We all know we got here somehow, are the details all that important?

Not really, not IN reality. They're only important because people make them important and kill over them. If WE weren't such assholes and egomaniancs, God wouldn't be so vengeful, believe that.

See, I'm on the side that believe it was a natural process that will one day be better understood. I don't need to know the details now to look at the big picture and see that many of the things that have puzzled man throughout time have been discovered at one point or another, and "mysteries" become commonplace when more is known about the reality of the world around us and how natural processes work. We didn't used to understand the patterns of the orbits of planets and moons, now we do, at least enough to understand basic scientific concepts and astronomy.
Obviously, we'll continue to learn because Human beings are curious little fuckers.

I have no proof of this theory, it just makes sense to me. I realise I am currently in a very small minority, most people prefer to believe in a father-figure Creator who bears some resemlance to us and has some continued involvement in our lives. These are just two among the possible answers to the question of how he got here, others I haven't considered may exist. My point is, what we have in common is the search, the yearning to get our questions answered.

I honestly believe the biggest difference between the religious and the non-religious is the degree to which they can accept the concept of "I don't know". That's it, not a big difference when you break it down.


edit- I just thought of something- an AA saying (these are often so helpful, little axioms and quips we memorise).

"Don't sweat the little stuff, and it's all little stuff".
 

fratpack

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Before I go to bed tonight and kiss my Muslim boyfriend good night and tell him I love him, I'll mention that I came across something funny on the LPSG site.
 

B_cigarbabe

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Before I go to bed tonight and kiss my Muslim boyfriend good night and tell him I love him, I'll mention that I came across something funny on the LPSG site.

We should all be kissing each other, regardless of religions.
Hooray for you fratpack!
I loved your rewrite M'lord!
cigarbabe:saevilw: