Can Russia really be blamed for the Flight MH17 tragedy?

rbkwp

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Germany's Turn ..
so much for those who are convinced it was solely ONE culprit at fault, they dont Fn know/but then again maybe they do Fn know ..


Pro-Russian rebels using seized Ukrainian missile downed MH17 passenger plane, says Germany

Germany's intelligence service believes Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by pro-Russian rebels using a missile taken from a Ukraine military base, a German newspaper has reported.

The finding contradicts previous claims – including by Prime Minister Tony Abbott and US Secretary of State John Kerry – that the missile was supplied by Russia.


Pro-Russian rebels using seized Ukrainian missile downed MH17 passenger plane, says Germany
 

rbkwp

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keeping an open mind is ALWAYS a good thing ..
(RT specialist me)


MH17 might have been shot down from air – chief Dutch investigator

The chief Dutch prosecutor investigating the MH17 downing in eastern Ukraine does not exclude the possibility that the aircraft might have been shot down from air,Der Spiegel reported. Intelligence to support this was presented by Moscow in July.


http://rt.com/news/199891-dutch-investigation-mh17-crash/
 

Perados

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Just saw some numbers and it did remind me that tripod thought russia could compensate the sanctions.

The russian currency has dropped by 41%, since january - the decline increased since the sanctions
Since august had the russian cb spend 10 billion dollar to prop up the currency, without mutch success
The inflation has increased to 8%
The price for meat increased by 18%
The dairy prices are up by 15%
Russian banks have no longer access to the international finance industry
The oil price is down to 80 $ - russia needs a price of 105$ to balance their budget - while half the states revenue comes from oil/gas
 

rbkwp

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prepared to accept the figures/numbers you are saying Pera
RT does not seem to be putting such out there?

then obviously the Western sanctions are having there desired Western effect
nothing to say about that from this end except its a shame to me, undeserved in my books
and there will be Western wonderment if Russia ends up retaliating in whatever way it deems fit aye?

can hear the Western cry now
WHY? are they doing that?
see we told you so, damn Russians,reds under the beds etc etc
conveniently forgetting who instigated it all??

sure does not make it right/we all need each other!
 

Perados

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prepared to accept the figures/numbers you are saying Pera
RT does not seem to be putting such out there?
what is rt?
then obviously the Western sanctions are having there desired Western effect
nothing to say about that from this end except its a shame to me, undeserved in my books
and there will be Western wonderment if Russia ends up retaliating in whatever way it deems fit aye?
i agree with you... sanctions wount help to solve the current pronlem. The people have to suffer, but the polizical situation wount change. They are instaled by people who still believe in old cold war stereotypes.
From the very first beginning the west should have questioned their behaviour, in relation ti the ukraine - i doubt that the usa would accept a russian friendly "revolution/goverment" in mexico.
can hear the Western cry now
WHY? are they doing that?
isnt it exactly what happened after the western revolution in the Ukraine? :rolleyes:
see we told you so, damn Russians,reds under the beds etc etc
conveniently forgetting who instigated it all??

sure does not make it right/we all need each other!

Agree
 

Jason

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The Russian economy is in a dire position. It badly needs high oil prices - but the West appears to have agreed with Saudi Arabia and other to keep them low. Failing this Russia could do with more gas sales - but Russia's threats mean that Europe has switched some of this winter's gas to other sources.

Probably the gas supply to Ukraine and Europe will keep flowing simply because Russia cannot afford to stop it. Russia could manage stoppages of a day or two, but that's about it.

The new Russians are distraught. They cannot buy in Russia the western goods and foods they want. Their roule assets have taken a tumble in value. Russia's credit rating is dire BBB-. We are looking at a situation where Russia pays the army and the (very many) public sector workers by an extreme QE. We're looking at an inflationary environment, even hyper-inflationary.

RT - Russia Today - is not reporting any of this.
 

rbkwp

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what is rt?

RT - Russia Today - is not reporting any of this?

correct Pera/Jason

RT does not seem to be putting such out there?

i heavily monitor RT daily
feel like emailing the editor and questioning why they have not released such details, considering they freely put a lot of everything else out there
hesitant as i get annoyed when/if there is no courtesy response ha
more likely to get a response back from DW (Deutsche Welle tho)
i have had a couple of decent exchanges with them

can i ask the source you got your numbers from please Pera?
just interested
dont worry Pera, trusty AJ Al Jazeera English, just received this .. ha

Oil price slump puts strain on Russia economy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua4_J712_FQ&feature=em-uploademail
 

Jason

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Russia Today is owned by the Russian government and is little more than a propaganda machine. It has been very heavily criticised indeed, specifically for disinformation. The Wikipedia article is a good place to start.

Right now we have Putin invading Ukraine by sending a column of tanks into the rebel-held areas. Yet Russia Today denies this is happening. The best starting point with RT is to assume that anything it says is a lie.
 

rbkwp

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Russia Today is owned by the Russian government and is little more than a propaganda machine.

agree
and its a GOOD propoganda m/c very much equal to the best Western propoganda media news sources in every Western country
especally noticable and annoying is the news items the west conveniently leave out as well, from informing there populace

both equally as bad as each other, always maintained that ..

a good current eg is CBC/CNN
how very very quickly the Canada thing died off, a utter complete farce that was
 

Jason

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Oooh Mr. Putin, you are so big.

Psychological profiling of Putin suggests he either has a small cock or believes he has a small cock, and is distressed by this. It also suggests he is a repressed homosexual.

In most circumstances this situation would provoke our sympathy. However it is a psychological background which seems to be encouraging one man to do evil things. Putin is a little man who shames Russia.
 

Jason

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Agreed. It's like the Mafia running a country. Where will it end?

He needs war to keep control. War reinforces his projected image as a patriotic Russian defending Russians who live beyond the borders of Russia. We can therefore expect further destabilisation of the Donbas region. We can also expect aggression towards the Baltic states, particularly the east of Latvia where there is a substantial Russian population. Threats exist to both Lithuania and Poland through the concept of a land corridor from Belarus (which is very closely tied to Russia) to Kaliningrad. It's possible we could see renewed offensive action against Georgia also. The uncertainty in my view is where the war is going to be, not whether there will be a war.

One alternative is a coup within Russia. Many of the Russian elite are horrified by the plunging rouble, but I'm not sure this will be enough. Of course many of the elite take their income from Russian minerals and directly export it to the West, typically with the wives and families also living in the West. In effect they are fast becoming ex-pat Russians with "estates" in Russia, ie with the source of their wealth in Russia but little real interest in the nation above a secure system, and Putin may actually suit them.

If not a coup we're looking at a revolution, along the lines of the Ukrainian revolution. The poll ratings for Putin are simply not credible; very many in Russia are horrified by what he is doing. In Ukraine he has created a war between Slav and Slav. Ukrainians are perceived by Russians as their brethren. An issue that could be a catalyst is the MH17 shooting. If the evidence becomes overwhelming that Russia shot down this plane and them that Putin lied to the Russian people I think we might see a tipping point. As such Putin will do anything to obfuscate on the issue. (Curiously the fall off the USSR is attributed by many in Russia to the situation where the government lied about the moon landings.)

I suspect we are going to see something of all three. Probably there will be an effort to oust Putin. Probably there will be some popular demonstrations. Probably there will be a war to defend Putin's position.

Let's say Putin enters eastern Latvia to "defend" Russians in Latvia (and this is a majority Russian area). Now Latvia is in NATO and the EU. Does anyone really believe NATO would go to war over this? Or that the EU would stop buying gas from Russia? How far could Putin take such a policy? Poland has a special visa area adjacent with Kaliningrad and touching the Belarus border - what happens if Russia sends in troops to administer this? The nations of the EU (except UK and France) have put very little thought into defence. Is the reality that we in the West would do nothing?
 

Jason

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...as continuously ridiculing a World leader ... l

Actually I think making Putin a laughing stock could be the most effective tool in getting a sensible outcome. I know there is a risk that he will lash out, but most of all the whole world and the people of Russia need his replacement.

Putin is a man who is doing evil things. His deeds transcend wrong. He is causing harm to many people in order to continue in power. He's not at the level of evil actions of some of the demons of the twentieth century but it is a matter of degree.

Putin has now been in power for years. Here are a selection of the media reports:
2000: Cries from Putin's torture pit | World news | The Guardian
2008: Putin's Torture Colonies - WSJ
2012: Putin's victim reports about tortures by the Russian KGB in Ukrainian prison - Kavkazcenter.com
There's also the issue about whether Putin personally acted as a torturer in his role as a KGB intelligence analyst. He probably wasn't someone who would have been doing such a thing every day, but intelligence analysts were required to demonstrate that they had the aptitude as a torturer in order to gain promotion. There is a video which supposedly shows Putin in this role. It is plausible that it is genuine.

In Putin we have a man who is alleged to be a torturer, who is presiding over a regime in Russia where torture is still routinely used, and who is responsible for alleged war crimes in Chechnya. We have the invasion of Georgia and occupation of two Georgian territories, and invasion and occupation of two Ukrainian territories. The point is sometimes made that he is not a Stalin or a Hitler. Maybe, but it's a matter of degree.

There is the issue of the psychological profile of a man who is acting as he is acting. He is of course driven. He's reigning in breach of the Russian constitution as a kind of red Tsar, and he's recreating something close to the Cold War. We in the West need to be very careful of him because he is dangerous - but the most important role for us is to reject his propaganda and remember that he is personally a tiny little man. Russia deserves better.
 

tripod

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Jason, you should have your fucking ass beat by the nearest Russian for advocating throwing their country into chaos and civil war.

You are such a Russophobic broken record... you and your equally Russophobic boyfriend Drifterwood run around here posting after each other... it's adorable.

You are such a Western Agent Provocateur and don't know a fucking thing about minding your own business.

If you think for a second that the West doesn't torture, then you are a real first class moron. The United States is the world's largest purveyor of incarceration and torture... but yet you trot out Putin's torture like it exists in a vacuum.

If I was Putin and had assholes like you running your mouth about overthrowing his SOVEREIGN government, I would lock you up and torture you so fucking hard you spilled the beans of every single person you know. You are an enemy of the Russian state and deserve no mercy.

Is this the kind of torture you are talking about? The kind of torture that prevents coups and overthrows? Lolz... not all torture is equal. You are advocating terrorism and what does the UK and the US do to terrorists? WE FUCKING TORTURE THEM YOU IDIOT.

Nice try but you always tip your hand and expose yourself for the terrorist that you are.

By Obama's standards... Putin can hit you with a drone strike and be justified.

Watch your fucking mouth.
 

Jason

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Я говорю не столько русский язык. Но я знаю, что-то о России. Путин плохой президент. Народ России должен иметь более человек на посту президента. Я не знаю, что это решение, но я знаю, что Путин не является решением.
 

rbkwp

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Actually I think making Putin a laughing stock could be the most effective tool in getting a sensible outcome. I know there is a risk that he will lash out, but most of all the whole world and the people of Russia need his replacement.

Putin is a man who is doing evil things.


yes but
about 3 maybe 5 years of his term i have hated him to the max
but
Stalin was evil, Hitler was evil,Mao may be
i doubt ridiculing him on a MH17 LPSG thread continuously is going to achieve much
we all do already know/perhaps unfortunately reluctantly accept his major foibles
there are some things i think he deserves praise for tho, very minimal perhaps


but x2 none of my business/why i defend him i know not ha ..

in my google language it means ' i LOVE Putin' secretly!!!