Can Russia really be blamed for the Flight MH17 tragedy?

[rbkwp]

as promised the Russian propaganda /to some /Rt version of events so far ..

German FM plays down intel claiming Ukraine militia downed MH17

The German Foreign Ministry maintains the media interpretation of an October statement by the president of national intelligence agency alleging self-defense militia downed MH17 flight in Ukraine was incomplete and taken out of context

Putin accuses Ukrainian troops of shelling MH17 crash site

Russian President Vladimir Putin, who met on Monday with Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak on the sidelines of an APEC summit in China, has also spoken on the issue of flight MH17.

Having expressed condolences to the families of the perished passengers and Malaysian state, Vladimir Putin confirmed that Moscow insists on a complete and objective international investigation of the MH17 catastrophe in accordance with the corresponding UN resolution.

i find it difficult to believe they would be words of an evil ogre as portrayed?

http://rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/

 

[rbkwp]

"When choosing between two evils
I always like to take the one
I've never tried before."
-- Mae West
(1892-1980), Actress

and of course
over analysis abounds LPSG politicos ..

 

[Perados]

Another result of the sanctions against russia...
While the usa was just an unimportent member of the apec meeting, was putin the most welcomed member.
China and russia defenetly plan a new alliance

 

[rbkwp]

wankers meet for 15 minutes re MH17, trying to clear there BS consiences
Aussie PM Abbott trying to live up to his crap 'shirtfront' Vlad/idiotic speech he mafe/was for opening his mouth ..
yes the unpredictable me is calling Vlad a wanker also ..


Flight MH17: Tony Abbott confronts Vladimir Putin at APEC summit

 

[Perados]

The blogger eliot higgins discovers that its more then likely that the russian army is responsible for the event.
He searched trough hundrets of videos and pics and can proof that russian army with anti-air-rockets, was close to the area of the crash.

 

[rbkwp]

The blogger eliot higgins discovers that its more then likely that the russian army is responsible for the event.
He searched trough hundrets of videos and pics and can proof that russian army with anti-air-rockets, was close to the area of the crash.


can readily agree its more than likely
have never ever discounted that quite likely scenario

what pisses me off tho
is that most of those Super Power arseholes more than likely KNOW
incl re MH370
but theyre playing minnow Countries like Australia/Holland for fools
including us common people, nothing anyone can say or do
to them, whats a few hundred civilian lives, when the cunts sacrifice millions of Military persons lives, and they think thats OK
playing politics greedy cunts, and WE put them in that position

hear the cry 'its the best we have got' duh duh!!!
they dont need to search videos/pics when the arseholes have sattellites etc

 

[Jason]

Yes I think you are right rbkwp that the USA knows, along with several other nations that have bothered to collect data. I think the USA (and others) will be sharing the data.

It is not in the interests of the USA and others to play up the story that Russia shot down the plane if at some date this is going to be disproved. My personal view is that Russia's guilt is beyond reasonable doubt. It would be a seismic change to come up with anything different.

I think Netherlands and Australia will have been kept informed. Possibly there's a political calculation around not saying "Putin is a liar". Possibly there's still a little uncertainty. Did Russia shoot down the plane? Or rebels with a Russian missile launcher and crew? Or Russian soldiers on leave who had been allowed to borrow a missile launcher?

There's still the issue about whether the action was an accident or deliberate. It's a skilled job to aim and fire such a missile and very hard to see how a passenger plane could have been confused with a Ukrainian military plane.

 

[tripod]

Yes I think you are right rbkwp that the USA knows, along with several other nations that have bothered to collect data. I think the USA (and others) will be sharing the data.

It is not in the interests of the USA and others to play up the story that Russia shot down the plane if at some date this is going to be disproved. My personal view is that Russia's guilt is beyond reasonable doubt. It would be a seismic change to come up with anything different.

I think Netherlands and Australia will have been kept informed. Possibly there's a political calculation around not saying "Putin is a liar". Possibly there's still a little uncertainty. Did Russia shoot down the plane? Or rebels with a Russian missile launcher and crew? Or Russian soldiers on leave who had been allowed to borrow a missile launcher?

There's still the issue about whether the action was an accident or deliberate. It's a skilled job to aim and fire such a missile and very hard to see how a passenger plane could have been confused with a Ukrainian military plane.

The whole operation didn't work. It's meaningless now, nobody gives two shits except for the people trying to overthrow the sovereign nation of Russia. The downing of the plane was supposed to throw NATO into the Ukraine civil war and it just didn't work.

Who shot it down is beside the point... the shooting down was meant to get NATO into the war and that never happened.

Everybody has been slowly puling back their bellicose statements towards Russia, even the gung-ho USA.

The operation was a failure although it did fuel the civil war top a large extent. The downing of the plane gave the Kiev government cover for their murderous bombing of civilians... that worked out quite well for them.

Nice try, I don't think we'll see the Kiev government shoot down any more planes... they learned their lesson.

 

[rbkwp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOAtz8xWM0w



Hrabove, Ukraine: Four months after Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down over rebel-held eastern Ukraine


MH17 disaster: new video of downing emerges

New video shows alarm in Ukrainian village after downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17

 

[rbkwp]

and the ongoing
your turn Jason ..

Malaysian Airlines MH17 Downed by Ukrainian Military Aircraft. Kiev Regime False Flag

Lest we forget, the downing of MH17 was used as a pretext by Washington to impose economic sanctions on the Russian Federation.

The Western media and governments have gone to arms length to suppress and distort the evidence which points to the downing of MH17 not by a Buk missile but by a Ukrainian military aircraft.

Spanish Air Traffic Controller’s Twitter Report [translated from Spanish]

One of the first reports (in real time) pointing to the presence of two Ukrainian military aircraft was revealed by the Spanish air traffic controller’s twitter messages on the day of the attacks. (emphasis added)


Malaysian Airlines MH17 Downed by Ukrainian Military Aircraft. Kiev Regime False Flag | Global Research

 

[Jason]

The story is a lie by someone calling himself "Carlos" and claiming to be a Spanish air traffic controller in Kiev. It is debunked here Who is 'Carlos the Spanish air traffic controller in Kiev'? -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net and in many other places.

It says something about the success of liar Putin's propaganda machine that such stories are getting internet coverage and in Russia are being broadcast as if the truth.

Over the last decade or so as oil prices have risen there has been growing prosperity in Russia, which is in effect an oil economy. However the fundamental state of the Russian economy is far worse. Now oil prices are declining the Russian economy must fail. We're looking at another 1991-style meltdown. I don't think any economist thinks this can be avoided. Instead we should be looking at some sort of international aid package.

Putin is seeking war as a distraction. It is possible for a nation to go to war and for its people to accept economic misery which they believe is associated with that war. Unless Putin can be utterly humiliated and forced to step aside I think we are looking at war as the most likely outcome. We should all be terrified. Perhaps Latvia as the first target.

 

[Perados]

Rbkwp posted an interesting link at the global warming thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxnN...em-uploademail

Not only does the link shows that the west runs military maneuvers right at the russian boarder - it shows ee do exaktly the same as russia does. So, no reason to worry

But it talks about a point, why the usa is on sutch a confrontation to russia - its already today about the oil that could get explored in the arktic sea...

 

[tripod]

The story is a lie by someone calling himself "Carlos" and claiming to be a Spanish air traffic controller in Kiev. It is debunked here Who is 'Carlos the Spanish air traffic controller in Kiev'? -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net and in many other places.

That Carlos guys is probably dead by now. Did you see what was underneath that quote from an email that was sent to a dude. Really? We are supposed to take an unsubstantiated "self quoted email response" as some sort of journalism? Bwa Ha Ha HA!!! The Spain Report doesn't even have a wikipedia page... yet Mr. Bennett wants us to believe that he has some sort of diplomatic security clearance with the Spanish government... laughable as hell. That is the lamest attempt to "debunk" anything I've ever seen.

Is this your idea of investigative journalism or "gotcha" global-politics?

It's pathetic. Here's what was below your little lying sack of shit article... you conveniently left this out of your propaganda.

"I was waiting till the Spanish embassy opens today in the country I live.
I phoned them asking if I could get information on Spanish citizen "Mr. X" who's probably hired by company "Y" in my country.

Hmm, first there was a moment of silence and then I was told (in different words) that I must be crazy asking for such information. And there is no way I can ever obtain such one, unless I'm calling in behalf of any authorized instution. But even if in this case, such information would be granted only after evaluation of well motivated request in written.

So, I gave them the example of Mr. Bennet, who allegly received such info from Spanish embassy in Kiev. They told once again, that's not posiible... unless he was authorized.

So, I have no idea whether "Carlos" is true or fake. Na, after all, does it really matter? But I know now, that if you guys call him an "ass-et", then the author of this fake info (no matter if "authorized" or not) is the real "asset".
Therefore, I really ask you to conduct such an experiment as I did before you publish such piece of crap next time."

However the fundamental state of the Russian economy is far worse. Now oil prices are declining the Russian economy must fail.

Oil prices are falling because Saudi Arabia is pumping production like nobody's business. I have been sort of wondering if this stance between the West and Russia post WWII (and before) is really Saudi Arabia vs Russia in a lockdown drag out century long petro-proxy-war. Probably not though...

 

[rbkwp]

probably because of the Western influence/tell them what to write ..
your turn Jason ..

Why Does the West Allow the Ukrainian Government to Write the Official Report on the Shoot-Down of MH-17?
Eric Zuesse

There are only two suspects in the shoot-down of the MH-17 Malaysian airliner over Ukraine on July 17th. One of these two suspects, the Ukrainian Government, was granted by the other three member-states of the official MH-17 'investigating' commission, a veto-power over anything that's written into that 'investigating' report.

Why Does the West Allow the Ukrainian Government to Write the Official Report on the Shoot-Down of MH-17? | Global Research

In other words, basically what exists is this:

The Ukrainian Government gets to write the official ‘investigation’ report on that ‘accident.’ The other three Obama-allied nations will place their signatures onto it — or else there simply won’t be any such ‘final report.’

This agreement on Ukraine’s veto-power was signed on August 8th, by Ukraine, Australia, Belgium, and Netherlands, the four member-nations of the official ‘investigation.’

This fact, of a Ukrainian veto, was made public on August 12th, in an obscure Ukrainian announcement.

 

[Jason]

The plane came down on Ukrainian territory from Ukrainian airspace. Ukraine must write the official report on an event in Ukraine.

There will also be a report from Malaysia (the nation that owned the plane). It seems that Netherlands, Australia and perhaps others are carrying out their own (public) reports.

The idea that a report is being carried out to reveal who shot down the plane is faulty. It is not some legal process to get at the truth. We already know the truth. Every nation on earth except Russia agrees that Russia shot down the plane, because intelligence investigations by several nations have already proved this. There is some doubt about whether it was Russian troops acting under direct orders from Russia or were instead Russian-supported rebels. There's also some doubt about whether the plane was identified by the murderers as a passenger plane or whether they somehow managed to confuse it with a Ukrainian military plane. Possibly the Ukrainian report will be able to give some evidence on this.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

The plane came down on Ukrainian territory from Ukrainian airspace. Ukraine must write the official report on an event in Ukraine.

There will also be a report from Malaysia (the nation that owned the plane). It seems that Netherlands, Australia and perhaps others are carrying out their own (public) reports.

The idea that a report is being carried out to reveal who shot down the plane is faulty. It is not some legal process to get at the truth. We already know the truth. Every nation on earth except Russia agrees that Russia shot down the plane, because intelligence investigations by several nations have already proved this. There is some doubt about whether it was Russian troops acting under direct orders from Russia or were instead Russian-supported rebels. There's also some doubt about whether the plane was identified by the murderers as a passenger plane or whether they somehow managed to confuse it with a Ukrainian military plane. Possibly the Ukrainian report will be able to give some evidence on this.

Well, if the plane was shot down by Russian-supported rebels, then it would be the rebels, not Russia, that did the shooting, no? In the latter case, Russia would be at least half an arm's-length away from being the perpetrators.
I'm a bit confused here, Jason.

 

[Jason]

Well, if the plane was shot down by Russian-supported rebels, then it would be the rebels, not Russia, that did the shooting, no? In the latter case, Russia would be at least half an arm's-length away from being the perpetrators.
I'm a bit confused here, Jason.

The issue depends on the extent to which Russia and Russian-supported rebels can be separated. The expertise needed to fire such a weapon requires a specialist military unit and equipment, and this cannot be a rebel group as I don't think anyone is suggesting they had the weapon - indeed we have satellite of it being brought in from Russia. Presumably we have a Russian military unit directly supplying and firing the weapon with access to Ukrainian territory provided by the Russian-backed rebels. The world seems to be terming this scenario "Russian-supported". (The alternative is a Russian unit with extensive Russian on-the-ground support - ie a 100% Russian action.)

In the way in which the terms are used "Russian" and "Russian supported" are pretty much synonyms. What isn't clear is whether the Russian specialist team cleaed this particular firing with their chain of command in the Russian army or whether their orders were more general.

The concept that is unravelling is the idea that the specific plane shot down was an accident. Those who understand the equipment say that it is almost impossible to confuse a passenger plane with a military plane - especially in this case where the passenger plane was very high and clearly not flying as a military transport. The issue which is not resolved is "why?" Plausibly Russia is playing a double game. It suits Russia to deny this act of mass murder to a home audience (and therefore all public announcements deny it) but Russia knows the whole world knows Russia shot it down, so it is a powerful threat. The choice of airline may be key - it is not a UK, US or European plane (which really would have provoked a backlash) but an Asian nation with few connections with Russia. We in the UK aren't going to break off all links with Russia over a Malysian plane, though we probably would over a UK plane.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

The issue depends on the extent to which Russia and Russian-supported rebels can be separated. The expertise needed to fire such a weapon requires a specialist military unit and equipment, and this cannot be a rebel group as I don't think anyone is suggesting they had the weapon - indeed we have satellite of it being brought in from Russia. Presumably we have a Russian military unit directly supplying and firing the weapon with access to Ukrainian territory provided by the Russian-backed rebels. The world seems to be terming this scenario "Russian-supported". (The alternative is a Russian unit with extensive Russian on-the-ground support - ie a 100% Russian action.)

In the way in which the terms are used "Russian" and "Russian supported" are pretty much synonyms. What isn't clear is whether the Russian specialist team cleaed this particular firing with their chain of command in the Russian army or whether their orders were more general.

The concept that is unravelling is the idea that the specific plane shot down was an accident. Those who understand the equipment say that it is almost impossible to confuse a passenger plane with a military plane - especially in this case where the passenger plane was very high and clearly not flying as a military transport. The issue which is not resolved is "why?" Plausibly Russia is playing a double game. It suits Russia to deny this act of mass murder to a home audience (and therefore all public announcements deny it) but Russia knows the whole world knows Russia shot it down, so it is a powerful threat. The choice of airline may be key - it is not a UK, US or European plane (which really would have provoked a backlash) but an Asian nation with few connections with Russia. We in the UK aren't going to break off all links with Russia over a Malysian plane, though we probably would over a UK plane.

All very interesting, but who knows?
We do know that the Russian newspaper Vzglyad said, just after the crash, that Ukrainian rebels took credit for downing a Ukrainian military transport plane; with hindsight, one would assume that the plane was actually the Malaysian airliner.
Russia dismissed this statement but without giving any evidence.

I wonder if we can really assume that no Ukrainian forces, rebel or otherwise, could have operated the BUK missile launching system. The Ukrainian army had BUKs in its arsenal, though they had no missiles capable of hitting a plane at 33,000 feet. But could a few rebels, trained in the Ukrainian army on BUKs, using less potent missiles, make the appropriate adjustments when using missiles with longer-range capabilities? I don't know. (We do know, or believe we know, that some witnesses claimed that the soldiers manning one of the BUK launchers were actual Russians, not ethnically Russian rebels.)

Some have suggested that the BUK used to fire the missile may have lacked a feature that distinguishes between friendly or enemy aircraft.

I remain a bit doubtful that anyone would have deliberately downed a civilian aircraft. Perhaps that simply speaks to my naivete.

 

[rbkwp]

related ..

nothing new been saying that since it hsppened, Fn C....s ..

Flight MH370: 'Who took control of the aircraft?'

The head of the world's largest international airline believes information about missing flight MH370 is being concealed, calling into question who was in control of the doomed aircraft and the role of the Malaysian military.

Emirates chief Sir Tim Clark said an unwillingness to share intelligence was obstructing the investigation into the fate of the plane, which vanished in March with 229 people on board.


Flight MH370: 'Who took control of the aircraft?' | Stuff.co.nz

 

[Jason]

The background story to MH17 may revolve around the Russian economy.

The media is now full of stories of just how dire the Russian economy is. Sanctions have exacerbated this problem, but the fundamental flaws have been visible for months and the Russian government will have been well aware of them. Specifically:
* In the Soviet era the USSR and its allies operated what was in effect a closed economy. Today the Russian economy is open, but with in effect just oil and gas as exports. High prices for oil have given Russia some level of prosperity. However Russia is critically exposed to falling prices. With the prices projected for next year the Russian economy faces very major problems.
* The rouble is both falling and volatile. It will be allowed to float from January 2015 and in effect is being allowed a lot of freedom now. Basically it is falling fast, but occasional interventions means the value spikes upwards. There are real worries about just how low the rouble will go to find a market value.
* The rouble is a fiat currency so Russia can print whatever money it needs. However its imports are almost all priced in other currencies. The situation is certainly likely to lead to substantial inflation and perhaps a spiral of falling rouble values.
* The logical solution is for Russia to do what almost every oil economy does and peg its currency to the dollar. However without QE Russia would need massive austerity. There's possibly the solution of a nation with two currencies - perhaps a "dollar rouble" and "Russian rouble" with exchange controls between them. The markets are assuming Russia will find a solution which is why the rouble is holding up as well as it is.

MH17 is very useful to Putin. It is part of the "everyone is against us" mantra which is necessary for home consumption and can in a sense justify the lack of foreign imports and the forthcoming austerity. It is also telling the world to remember Russia's power. Russia can shoot down a passenger plane and is willing to do so.