Can Russia really be blamed for the Flight MH17 tragedy?

[tripod]

I provided VERY good proof that they didn't come RUNNING and BEGGING.

I'm not sure why you want to beat a dead horse on that.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

I provided VERY good proof that they didn't come RUNNING and BEGGING..

Only if one interprets the phrase very literally.
And you only spoke of ONE country among the 13 Eastern Bloc nations that have joined NATO.

I'm not sure why you want to beat a dead horse on that.

If you post something, you can expect a response. Do you not understand this simple fact about message boards?
I should go through this tread and post all your ad hominems. I was astonished at how many there are.

 

[tripod]

Only if one interprets the phrase very literally. And you only spoke of ONE country among the 13 Eastern Bloc nations that have joined NATO.If you post something, you can expect a response. Do you not understand this simple fact about message boards?
I should go through this tread and post all your ad hominems. I was astonished at how many there are.

Ad hominem? That's hilarious... you do realize that's all you've done right?

You can't disprove my ideas so you beat a dead horse and whine a bit.

Are you sad because history doesn't fit the version in your brain? That happens a lot, deal with it. I would just grow a pair and admit that you're wrong... but that would be just too easy... beating a dead horse would be so much more romantic right? Maybe beating a dead horse would make you look like you're "sticking it to me" to your buddies here?

Do you just not want to look like a quitter? People quit things all of the time... it's okay dude.

A list of ad hominem incidents would truly prove you are obsessed with me... what would it prove? You and your buddies have all come at me... several people attacking me at once... and I held my ground... have YOU ever done that? Can you? Of course you can't you couldn't even deal with me, all you are good at is a group fight where you get a few kicks in.

It's clear that 99.9% of every member here is calcified in their Russophobia and 99.9999% of news broadcasts are as slanted as they were during the lead up to the 2003 Iraq invasion... I came here to see if there were any members who declined to accept the Western propaganda machine.

Not enough for me to give a shit about this place. I've posted the majority of what I wanted to say and for me to keep participating in this thread before more information comes to light would be me beating my own dead horse.

Y'all can go back to bashing Russia, demonizing Putin as everyone's personal boogeyman and accepting propaganda as fact. I don't watch RT, I don't speak Russian and I haven't spent one minute soaking up Russian propaganda. All of my opinions are from US and World News sources, none of them disseminate Russian propaganda.

 

[Klingsor]

Ad hominem? That's hilarious... you do realize that's all you've done right?

You can't disprove my ideas so you beat a dead horse and whine a bit.

I'm confused. Is that how you're defining ad hominem?

 

[ConanTheBarber]

Ad hominem? That's hilarious... you do realize that's all you've done right?

You can't disprove my ideas so you beat a dead horse and whine a bit.

Are you sad because history doesn't fit the version in your brain? That happens a lot, deal with it. I would just grow a pair and admit that you're wrong... but that would be just too easy... beating a dead horse would be so much more romantic right? Maybe beating a dead horse would make you look like you're "sticking it to me" to your buddies here?

Do you just not want to look like a quitter? People quit things all of the time... it's okay dude.

A list of ad hominem incidents would truly prove you are obsessed with me... what would it prove? You and your buddies have all come at me... several people attacking me at once... and I held my ground... have YOU ever done that? Can you? Of course you can't you couldn't even deal with me, all you are good at is a group fight where you get a few kicks in.

It's clear that 99.9% of every member here is calcified in their Russophobia and 99.9999% of news broadcasts are as slanted as they were during the lead up to the 2003 Iraq invasion... I came here to see if there were any members who declined to accept the Western propaganda machine.

Not enough for me to give a shit about this place. I've posted the majority of what I wanted to say and for me to keep participating in this thread before more information comes to light would be me beating my own dead horse.

Y'all can go back to bashing Russia, demonizing Putin as everyone's personal boogeyman and accepting propaganda as fact. I don't watch RT, I don't speak Russian and I haven't spent one minute soaking up Russian propaganda. All of my opinions are from US and World News sources, none of them disseminate Russian propaganda.

What a fantasy!
I have not bashed Russia once ... and perhaps you can prove this to yourself by looking through my posts. Nor have I demonized Putin, not once.
If you can find an ad hominem from me in this exchange we've had, please reveal it to me.

I'm not sticking anything to you. I would like to see you demonstrate two things ... a little intellectual honesty, and a sense that the route to originality and truth is not to simply stand conventional thinking on its head.

A list of ad hominem incidents might give you some indication of which side of this discussion has been abusive. (I'll include the ad hominems and a few generally abusive statements.)


To lovinglife (post 18):
Naiveté from hell... you are so misinformed that I don't even know where to start.

To lovinglife (post 26):
Actually I poked you with your own stick... you dropped it like a newb.
You said a very stupid thing and I called you out on it, it was a simple exchange.
A lot of people know who I am... you don't but that's not my problem.
If you say something stupid again while quoting me, I will always have a right to call you out on it and will not hesitate to do so.

To eurotop (post 27):
TEXTBOOK Russophobic uninformed anti-Russian bias.
The Russian people are human beings just like you and me. they're culture is no better and no worse than the Eurocentric cultures of the West.
Russian people are in fact, quite intelligent... some of the smartest people in the world come from Russia.
But you can't see that because you have been raised watching fucking Rambo movies and other cold war Western propaganda.

To Perados (post 31):
Anybody with half a brain knows that this is not possible. Again, you assume that Russians are developmentally disabled and this is just not a rational read of Russia's geopolitical aims. You're talking out yer butt.

To Jason (post 31):
Oh how goddamn quick you fucking Westerners forget these facts in favor of your sanitized pseudo history you teach in your schools.
Russophobia was created in the UK BTW.

To Perados and joll (post 38):
You both are completely full of crap.

To dandelion (post 64):
Can you stop regurgitating the Western media machine and wait until the investigation is complete? Oh, you don't want to wait for the investigation... you'd like to ratchet up the Russophobia and echo the baseless accusations of the US media. I mean, the US media has never lied to the public about matters of war before right? You are so fucking naive it's ridiculous... you eat up whatever is served to you by mainstream media....
You are revising recent history and it's pathetic....
Talking out yer butt....
This is non sensical and meaningless....
Bullshit....

To dandelion (post 69):
Your English ass has a lot to talk about when it comes to subjugating others... you probably need to drop this before I make you look like an idiot....
I don't think you really know the details of NATO expansion. Nobody came running and begging to join NATO... do you just throw stuff at me seeing what will stick or something? Do you know the slightest bit about NATO expansion? I don't think you do... because your statement displays a flagrant disregard for what actually happened. Crack a fucking book once in a while or spend some time before you just start hurling accusations and false interpretations....

Those are just the high points.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

I'm confused. Is that how you're defining ad hominem?

Seems so.

 

[Calboner]

To lovinglife (post 18):
Naiveté from hell... you are so misinformed that I don't even know where to start.

To lovinglife (post 26):
Actually I poked you with your own stick... you dropped it like a newb.
You said a very stupid thing and I called you out on it, it was a simple exchange.
A lot of people know who I am... you don't but that's not my problem.
If you say something stupid again while quoting me, I will always have a right to call you out on it and will not hesitate to do so.

To eurotop (post 27):
TEXTBOOK Russophobic uninformed anti-Russian bias.
The Russian people are human beings just like you and me. they're culture is no better and no worse than the Eurocentric cultures of the West.
Russian people are in fact, quite intelligent... some of the smartest people in the world come from Russia.
But you can't see that because you have been raised watching fucking Rambo movies and other cold war Western propaganda.

To Perados (post 31):
Anybody with half a brain knows that this is not possible. Again, you assume that Russians are developmentally disabled and this is just not a rational read of Russia's geopolitical aims. You're talking out yer butt.

To Jason (post 31):
Oh how goddamn quick you fucking Westerners forget these facts in favor of your sanitized pseudo history you teach in your schools.
Russophobia was created in the UK BTW.

To Perados and joll (post 38):
You both are completely full of crap.

To dandelion (post 64):
Can you stop regurgitating the Western media machine and wait until the investigation is complete? Oh, you don't want to wait for the investigation... you'd like to ratchet up the Russophobia and echo the baseless accusations of the US media. I mean, the US media has never lied to the public about matters of war before right? You are so fucking naive it's ridiculous... you eat up whatever is served to you by mainstream media....
You are revising recent history and it's pathetic....
Talking out yer butt....
This is non sensical and meaningless....
Bullshit....

To dandelion (post 69):
Your English ass has a lot to talk about when it comes to subjugating others... you probably need to drop this before I make you look like an idiot....
I don't think you really know the details of NATO expansion. Nobody came running and begging to join NATO... do you just throw stuff at me seeing what will stick or something? Do you know the slightest bit about NATO expansion? I don't think you do... because your statement displays a flagrant disregard for what actually happened. Crack a fucking book once in a while or spend some time before you just start hurling accusations and false interpretations....

Those are just the high points.

Nice collection. Makes Tripod's style of "argumentation" pretty clear.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

Nice collection. Makes Tripod's style of "argumentation" pretty clear.

I think so. The question is, Can he allow himself to see it?
(I've observed him. He's not always like this. But every so often, he loses his grip and everyone else has to pay.)

 

[tripod]

I'm confused. Is that how you're defining ad hominem?

Well I define bullying when several members take it upon themselves to follow my every move and troll my posts looking for anything that they can capitalize on to feel empowered... the man was beating a dead horse and he was whining, sorry if I called him out.

It's frustrating and difficult to defend yourself from several members at once... quite difficult for me to keep my cool, I mean how well have you ever done it? I'll bet you've NEVER had to argue against several people at once that just keep coming at you and taking turns.

Wanna bully me some more? Huh?

I know you do, because you are a small mediocre mind and you will oppose me at every turn.

It's modus operandi for Bullies to cry foul whenever they experience resistance... bullies like to punch but they can't take one so they whine whenever they are hit. You gonna fucking whine? Huh? You gonna cry? You gonna troll me?

I don't back down from bullies and I LOVE to give them a taste of their own medicine.

 

[tripod]

What a fantasy!
I have not bashed Russia once ... and perhaps you can prove this to yourself by looking through my posts. Nor have I demonized Putin, not once.
If you can find an ad hominem from me in this exchange we've had, please reveal it to me.

I'm not sticking anything to you. I would like to see you demonstrate two things ... a little intellectual honesty, and a sense that the route to originality and truth is not to simply stand conventional thinking on its head.

A list of ad hominem incidents might give you some indication of which side of this discussion has been abusive. (I'll include the ad hominems and a few generally abusive statements.)


To lovinglife (post 18):
Naiveté from hell... you are so misinformed that I don't even know where to start.

To lovinglife (post 26):
Actually I poked you with your own stick... you dropped it like a newb.
You said a very stupid thing and I called you out on it, it was a simple exchange.
A lot of people know who I am... you don't but that's not my problem.
If you say something stupid again while quoting me, I will always have a right to call you out on it and will not hesitate to do so.

To eurotop (post 27):
TEXTBOOK Russophobic uninformed anti-Russian bias.
The Russian people are human beings just like you and me. they're culture is no better and no worse than the Eurocentric cultures of the West.
Russian people are in fact, quite intelligent... some of the smartest people in the world come from Russia.
But you can't see that because you have been raised watching fucking Rambo movies and other cold war Western propaganda.

To Perados (post 31):
Anybody with half a brain knows that this is not possible. Again, you assume that Russians are developmentally disabled and this is just not a rational read of Russia's geopolitical aims. You're talking out yer butt.

To Jason (post 31):
Oh how goddamn quick you fucking Westerners forget these facts in favor of your sanitized pseudo history you teach in your schools.
Russophobia was created in the UK BTW.

To Perados and joll (post 38):
You both are completely full of crap.

To dandelion (post 64):
Can you stop regurgitating the Western media machine and wait until the investigation is complete? Oh, you don't want to wait for the investigation... you'd like to ratchet up the Russophobia and echo the baseless accusations of the US media. I mean, the US media has never lied to the public about matters of war before right? You are so fucking naive it's ridiculous... you eat up whatever is served to you by mainstream media....
You are revising recent history and it's pathetic....
Talking out yer butt....
This is non sensical and meaningless....
Bullshit....

To dandelion (post 69):
Your English ass has a lot to talk about when it comes to subjugating others... you probably need to drop this before I make you look like an idiot....
I don't think you really know the details of NATO expansion. Nobody came running and begging to join NATO... do you just throw stuff at me seeing what will stick or something? Do you know the slightest bit about NATO expansion? I don't think you do... because your statement displays a flagrant disregard for what actually happened. Crack a fucking book once in a while or spend some time before you just start hurling accusations and false interpretations....

Those are just the high points.

Just proves that I have great one liners. Thanks for the highlight reel.

that was fucking AWESOME!!!!

MORE, MORE, MORE!!

 

[Klingsor]

I'll bet you've NEVER had to argue against several people at once that just keep coming at you and taking turns.

You're right, I've managed to avoid that situation. :smile:

 

[deleted213967]

I'll bet you've NEVER had to argue against several people at once that just keep coming at you and taking turns.
.

Well, I have, being one of the very few members to the right of The Nation's editorial board.

Still, what would be Putin's redeemable qualities according to you?

(Let's assume you are not interested in his bare-chested photographic enterprises.)

 

[dandelion]

You can't disprove my ideas so you beat a dead horse and whine a bit.

i think we have gone a very long way in disproving your deas. Several times by simply quoting back what you said and pointing out contradictions. Since you didnt come back with further arguments, I think anyone reading the thread would not end up agreeing with you. I am puzzled how you can appear so angry about the fact we disagree with you but do not respond to the arguments.

You seem to be trying to talk out the debate with a slanging match, so to sum up:

1)the plane came down in territory controlled by Russian sympathisers.
2) Said sympathisers are currently shooting down planes.
3) there is evidence the plane was shot down
4) Russian supplied rocket launchers were seen in the area, rocket trails were tracked in the air, apparently a launcher with a missing missile was seen departing. People were recorded discussing how to cover this all up.
5) technical advice suggests the launcher would probably have been unable to discriminate a civilian jet from a military target.
6) there is no obvious reason why the russians would want to shoot down a civilian jet, so likely it was an unintentional. However, its the sort of accident you get when people start firing at planes with imperfect equipment in a war situation.
7)The country is riddled with russian soldiers pretending not to be russian soldiers.

Can Russia be blamed? obviously. if they had not supported the rebels with equipment and soldiers this could not have happened.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

You're right, I've managed to avoid that situation. :smile:

Even with your "small mediocre mind"?
You get real kudos for that, Klingsor.
(I must say, I am impressed by your civility and self-possession, displayed through thread after thread.)

 

[Jason]

i think we have gone a very long way in disproving your deas. Several times by simply quoting back what you said and pointing out contradictions. Since you didnt come back with further arguments, I think anyone reading the thread would not end up agreeing with you. I am puzzled how you can appear so angry about the fact we disagree with you but do not respond to the arguments.

You seem to be trying to talk out the debate with a slanging match, so to sum up:

1)the plane came down in territory controlled by Russian sympathisers.
2) Said sympathisers are currently shooting down planes.
3) there is evidence the plane was shot down
4) Russian supplied rocket launchers were seen in the area, rocket trails were tracked in the air, apparently a launcher with a missing missile was seen departing. People were recorded discussing how to cover this all up.
5) technical advice suggests the launcher would probably have been unable to discriminate a civilian jet from a military target.
6) there is no obvious reason why the russians would want to shoot down a civilian jet, so likely it was an unintentional. However, its the sort of accident you get when people start firing at planes with imperfect equipment in a war situation.
7)The country is riddled with russian soldiers pretending not to be russian soldiers.

Can Russia be blamed? obviously. if they had not supported the rebels with equipment and soldiers this could not have happened.

This seems fair.

However I quibble about the idea that it was unintentional. My understanding is that missile launchers such as this need skilled operators - they're not just point and shoot. They also have the tools to know what they're shooting at, and a passenger plane at more than a mile high on a regular route isn't easy to mistake for anything else. I think a passenger plane was deliberately attacked.

 

[ConanTheBarber]

This seems fair.

However I quibble about the idea that it was unintentional. My understanding is that missile launchers such as this need skilled operators - they're not just point and shoot. They also have the tools to know what they're shooting at, and a passenger plane at more than a mile high on a regular route isn't easy to mistake for anything else. I think a passenger plane was deliberately attacked.

I can't imagine why anyone would see benefit in shooting down a passenger airliner -- so my assumption is that it was unintentional.

But we know the rebels have an intention of bringing at least some jets down. Just days after the downing of the Malaysia Airlines jet, rebels took credit for downing two Ukrainian fighter jets not far from the flight MH17 crash site.

 

[798686]

It's frustrating and difficult to defend yourself from several members at once... quite difficult for me to keep my cool, I mean how well have you ever done it? I'll bet you've NEVER had to argue against several people at once that just keep coming at you and taking turns.

This is true. And yeh, I have - it's exhausting. :redface:

However - it does mean you're against popular opinion, which doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong... but could increase the chances a bit. :tongue:

 

[Klingsor]

Even with your "small mediocre mind"?
You get real kudos for that, Klingsor.
(I must say, I am impressed by your civility and self-possession, displayed through thread after thread.)

Thanks! I wasn't sure how much tripod directed that at me specifically, since he and I haven't engaged much on the issues.

I've gotten into pissing contests here in the past, but found they left me strangely depressed, even away from the computer. Now I try to step back before getting drawn in that far.

 

[rbkwp]

as interesting as any other post, on topic?
Ian Thorpe Kip Keino!!!

Sport for Humanity ..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqtFnAZu1YI

 

[ConanTheBarber]

Thanks! I wasn't sure how much tripod directed that at me specifically, since he and I haven't engaged much on the issues.

I've gotten into pissing contests here in the past, but found they left me strangely depressed, even away from the computer. Now I try to step back before getting drawn in that far.

I generally agree, although when the behavior is really egregious, I sometimes feel I should step in. But that ain't the route to sanity, fo' sho'.

I'll watch you.:biggrin1: