Can Russia really be blamed for the Flight MH17 tragedy?

[ConanTheBarber]

Sounds much more like Austria to me.

Yes. Germany has been excoriating itself for several decades. The Austrians have been much more heavily in denial.

 

[twoton]

Yes. Germany has been excoriating itself for several decades. The Austrians have been much more heavily in denial.

There's a joke about that: "The Austrians have convinced the world that Hitler was German and Bach was Austrian."

 

[ConanTheBarber]

There's a joke about that: "The Austrians have convinced the world that Hitler was German and Bach was Austrian."

It must be a Swiss 'joke.'
Har har.

 

[798686]

It looks like you know nothing about germany - to say we try to avoide to talk about ww2 is so wrong. Its part of our life

I agree on this. Germany seems more than willing to try to atone for its past - and to distance itself from it. Perhaps so much so that it's now time to move on. :tongue:

Britain is gradually coming to terms with mistakes in its past - in terms of atrocities committed during Empire days, and also in Northern Ireland, etc. Unfortunately, it's slightly more of a grey area than the Nazis in WW2 - I guess partly because the Nazis are no longer here, so it's easier to separate yourself from it, whereas Britain today is still an extension of who we were back in the day - although hopefully much improved and reformed. :smile:

 

[185248]

If it was a well used and busy corridor, how come it was not a Russian plane? Or where theirs diverted from the region?

Malaysia airlines income probably would have been hurt by recent events concerning MH370. So do you think they may have risked passengers lives because of income and the bottom line?

 

[185248]

If it was a well used and busy corridor, how come it was not a Russian plane? Or where theirs diverted from the region?

Malaysia airlines income probably would have been hurt by recent events concerning MH370. So do you think they may have risked passengers lives because of income and the bottom line?

I don't think Malaysian Airlines will be with us much longer.

 

[Jason]

If it was a well used and busy corridor, how come it was not a Russian plane? Or were theirs diverted from the region?

It's a good question.

Many of the planes are not Russian, rather those flying between Western Europe and Asia. However there will presumably be some Russian planes in the vicinity also. If Russian planes were diverted it would tend to support the idea that the shooting down was a deliberate act by Russia rather than an accident.

 

[Freddie53]

It is recommended to history teachers to not use pronouns for events in history. Prince Phillip is 92. He is a veteran of WWII. He was not even 25 yet when the war ended. That means all the leaders of WWII are dead and have been so for some time!

The term Nazis, not "you" should be used. The term Allies or Great Britain etc should be used, not us. I dare say none of us were even born before 1945.

It should be irrelevant where a person was born or lives on this thread or any thread. What matters is what the poster has said.

I very much appreciate that no one has lambasted me for being an American. However, I believe the most patriotic skill that a citizen can have is to be able to clearly see what is happening, has happened or may happen within his own country. Miss this skill and there may be trouble ahead. Major trouble!

About the Ukraine crises: There is plenty of blame to go around. I've read how some Europeans are blaming the United States for the crisis. Some are blaming the separatists. Some are blaming the Russians.

I have come to suspect that Putin is a game player and is in it for the long haul. Putin would love to move the center of Europe from Brussels, Berlin and London to Moscow. I don't know what he would be willing to do to get that done.

One group so far is getting off the hook. The answer will come in the next paragraph. This paragraph gives the background of what went down. When did this crisis get world attention? It happened when the elected President of Ukraine suddenly aborted his engagement to the EU and called of the "marriage" just as it was time for Ukraine to sign on the dotted line. Instead he without any warning signed a pact with Russia. The EU was not happy. Many and apparently the majority of Ukrainians weren't happy about this pact with Russia.

Ukraine has been a buffer state between Russia and NATO since the fall of the USSR. Putin has made several comments that Ukraine would "Never Be Part of NATO." That apparently includes the EU as EU membership puts Ukraine in the UK/EU economic block. (If I remember right, if all of Europe is added together, Europe remains the US' largest trading partner. It doesn't show up because the UK, Germany, France and the rest are listed by each nation.) The EU and the US will eventually sign a free trade agreement. Putin doesn't want Ukraine to be a part of that.

So part of the blame goes to the EU for getting too close to the Russian border. Look what happened to Georgia when the EU tried to include Georgia.

I have read a few articles that I think originated in the UK. There is the charge that the US fuddled all kinds of aid to Ukraine government. There were no criteria given to support this charge. That doesn't mean that isn't some truth to it. I've not read where US military equipment and supplies has been found on Ukrainian soil. I'm not passing judgment on this until I read some criteria that has some credibility to support such a claim.

I know that America trades with Ukraine. That doesn't mean the US has bankrolled a military, etc.

I have mixed emotions about the Crimea. It was a part of Russia. It was given as a gift to Ukraine in the 1950s. Russia swears that it did not invade Crimea.

The Black Sea most likely contains oil and perhaps lots of it. The US, EU, Russia and Ukraine need to sit down and work out something that all can agree to and make that border accepted by all including the UN. Somehow Crimea will need to be recognized as part of Russia, not Ukraine by the UN and all other nations including Ukraine.

1. Russia would have to guarantee free shipping to Ukraine. Perhaps a UN peace keeping force on some island out in the Black Sea etc.that includes no military from the major military and/or economic powers. That list of major nations would number more than ten for sure.

2. A percentage of the oil profits would go to Ukraine. Again, that would need someone to guarantee oil profits for Ukraine. The oil in the Black Sea is the major reason Putin wanted the Crimea. The second reason was to guarantee Russian access to the oceans via the Black Sea for the Russian navy.

3. The non Russians in the Crimea should be offered (not required) enough money to relocate and not be refugees in a land where each would feel welcome. There are Muslims as well as some Ukrainians that live in the Crimea. If they want to relocate, someone besides them should foot the bill.

3. Putin would have to agree to some concessions over Ukraine. Russia, with sanctions lifted, could pay for any Russians living in Ukraine to immigrate to Russia. Russian population is in decline. That would make good sense.

4. Perhaps the border does need a little tweaking. I don't mean eastern Ukraine be annexed. But there may be a few places where the border could be compromised to the benefit of both nations.

5. Some kind of reward for Putin and Russia has to be worked in. Putin can not become a Russian leader who has failed. Putin may be a bit more ambitious than the US or the EU might want. But Putin is better than the unknown that might come out of a coup against Putin for losing the Ukrainian crisis.

Putin has to appear a winner to the Russian people. The consequences of not doing that are dangerous to Europe more than to the US or the UK.

6. Ukraine can't come up as a loser either. Russia I'm sure wants the industrial area of eastern Ukraine. The Ukraine needs a bargain on oil from Russia. Russia could use a sweetheart deal from Ukraine concerning the industrial center of eastern Ukraine.

OBAMA IS A DOVE WHO DOES NOT WANT TO GO TO WAR ANYWHERE

Point to take that I don't believe most Europeans are understanding. Obama is a dove. For second language people, a dove is against war. Europe is in a bit of a foul mood toward the US over the spying revelations.

I've read the suspicion that the US is calling the shots in Ukraine crisis. I beg to differ. It is France and Germany that are doing the talking to Putin and trying to work out a deal. The American people, not the Neo-Cons, are more than happy to let France and Germany lead the West on this. Apparently the same can be said about the UK.

Secretary of State John Kerry is mostly occupied with the Gaza War. He isn't doing that much about the present Ukraine crisis. After the Crimea crises blew over, the US has taken a back seat, I suspect, from orders from Obama.

THE SPYING RING

One thing to consider is that the UK along with Australia, Canada and New Zealand are in the same spying ring. What one knows all know. The infamous Anglosphere can be summed up this way: All for one and one for all!

Second thing, the German citizen that has been charged with spying for the US most likely is guilty. I am going to assume that for now.

That makes some Europeans be anti-American. Shame on Obama. Obama is not going to tell the world that he was clueless about this controversy. The spying organization has made itself above American law and the law of any other nation. It is unconstitutional for the US government to spy on its people without a search warrant.

MY OPINION OF WHAT WHEN WRONG WITH US SPYING

Once the administration of the spying groups really got into it, it became an obsession. They "had" to have a copy of every document sent over the Internet and a recording of every phone call. They became pack rats. It doesn't matter that they would never be able to listen or read all that they have collected. It had become a major obsession. The first thing that people often do when they have an obsession is to hide their activity. Somehow, even with a horrid case of being obsessed, they know that they have an unhealthy dose of obsession. So they hide their activities. As the days, months, years go by the obsession just gets worse. Each new generation of spies wants to show they outdid the last generation.

The solution is for our Congress to pass some laws to get back control. That won't happen. The US Congress is so divided with the Republicans controlling one house and the Democrats the other. As an analogy, if the Russian army began marching to the Pacific Ocean and crossed over to Alaska with the goal of eventually marching on Washington DC, the Republican response would be to wait until Obama is out of office. The Republicans hate Obama so much that they would allow a foreign country to conquer America before they would allow Obama to get any credit for repulsing the enemy.

Europeans often forget that the US and Russia share a border in the same way that France and England do except it is less than ten miles in many places. Americans on some American islands can see Russians on Russian islands.

The US people certainly were clueless and many Americans are not happy about it, not at all! Americans are being spied on by our own government.

BOTTOM LINE

As far as the the Democrats and Independents, which form a substantial majority, are in control of the White House, don't expect the US to come and bail out Germany and France and their attempt to solve this in Ukraine's favor.

If the Democrats and Independents stay home and don't vote, America may have a major problem!

In my next post, I will explain my view about what is happening in America and how it will affect America's willingness to go to war, again! Hint: I don't see the US going to war except in some very narrow situations that are not likely to happen.

 

[Freddie53]

According to a poll recently, A majority of Americans are willing to go to war if certain nations were to be invaded. They are Canada in first place. The UK is in second place. The rest of the Anglosphere, New Zealand and Australia, comes in there somewhere. Then Mexico, Germany and Israel.

There are Americans willing to go to war to help many nations if they were invaded, but not a majority of Americans.

Americans are angry that they were lead to go to war against Iraq with false information. Dick Cheney has a very high unfavorable rating. George, the Stupid, keeps well hidden at his ranch.

Americans would love to go back to the 90s when Bill Clinton was president. (Except for the die hard Republicans who hate anyone that is a Democrat.

Hillary Rodham Clinton is by far the most favored person to be the next president by Democrats and Independents, a majority of the voters.

Republicans want to sue or impeach President Obama. Doesn't matter that they have a majority in the lower house. The Democrats hold the majority in the Senate where the trial would take place. It takes a 2/3 majority to convict a president who has been impeached by the House. Impeachment is sort of like a grand jury that decides whether there is enough evidence to have a trial. The trial would take place in the Senate.

Obama is not going to be removed from office until his term is ended or he has died.

Most of us know someone who has been killed or been badly injured due to that war. We lost 5,000 American lives. We spent at least four trillion dollars on that war. And for what? Iraq is in worse shape now than it was before the US and the UK invaded Iraq.

George the Stupid, didn't have enough sense to know that you can't start a war costing trillions of dollars and cut taxes at the same time.

So tax cuts were passed by the Bush Administration. The tax cuts were primarily for the rich. Bush helped set up the US bank disaster. I doubt Bush would go to the toilet without getting Wall Street's permission first! With Stupid attached to his name, what can you expect!!!!!

Bush did what no president was able to do before him. He bankrupted America. Will the US be able to pull out of it? Probably, we have the third highest population. Our people are generally educated. America is looking to becoming the largest oil producer in the world with Canada right behind America. Even though we have pilfered much of our resources, the North American continent still has many natural resources that America will need to pull America out of this.

Most Americans understand that another protracted war like Iraq would sink the dollar, the American economy. There would be winners and losers. Europe would probably sink as well. The pound and the euro would go down at the same time I suspect.

China would become the world's currency. The result would be three super powers: China, India and the US. If the EU could get its act together as one political entity that has sovereignty over the member nations and has a unified military as well, the EU would be the fourth super power.

This is one American who understands that in the long term, America needs a EU that is a super power equal to the US. They would complement each other and 100 years from now could compete against Chine. The US/EU pact would still have fewer people than China or India. The US or the EU acting alone in a 100 years would be powerless.

Most politicians on both sides of the pond are not looking at what is going to happen in 25, 50, 75 or 100 years. All they care about is winning the next election. Loyalty is first to the party and the nation takes second or third place if that is possible.

America and Europe share an ancestry, a culture, a religion, Christianity is respected and helped form our culture. Most are learning English as a second language and many are proficient in it.

Europe has had way too many wars.l I hope that this movement in its infancy that the US an the EU will become unfriendly rivals is rather stupid. Why move the war zone to a new area? America is the daughter of Europe. The Hispanics are primarily Catholic and speak Spanish.

Plain and simple. America is not a daughter of China or India.

Europe and the US are genetically very close. Many of the shared American and European cousins only go back four or five generations.

The answer for the EU is to step up to the plate as an equal to the US. The EU has the population, economic power and as a group a powerful military.

Now is the time for the EU to show that they are above Russia in economic power. It is time for the EU to show the world they can do something without the help of the US.

That doesn't mean we need to break alliances, economic pacts, etc. NATO needs some reorganization, but even NATO can be kept as a strategic alliance.

However, the EU is now a big player in the world. The world needs to see that. The crises in Ukraine in the perfect time and place for this to happen.

America did one major thing for Western Europe. It kept the peace so that Britain, France and Germany could become real allies. That had to happen for peace to prevail in Europe. A solid economy was built that Eastern Europe looked over and wanted, but could not have as part of the USSR empire.

America is not a perfect nation. We have made our share of mistakes. But America has done some good things for Europe when Europe decided to destroy itself, not one, but twice in the 20th century.

Had the war been fought on American soil, we would have been in the same shape. America can't depend on the big pond on each side for protection anymore!

My thoughts from across the pond!

Freddie, the retired history teacher

 

[tripod]

I have come to suspect that Putin is a game player and is in it for the long haul. Putin would love to move the center of Europe from Brussels, Berlin and London to Moscow. I don't know what he would be willing to do to get that done.

What I don't understand is how it is perfectly acceptable in the Western media to know exactly "what Putin would love to do"... it's all Putin, Putin, Putin and everybody is an expert in Putin... NEVER is it mentioned that he leads a country called the Russian Federation... can't even get anyone to use the term Russia. Instead everybody participates in the linguistic framing of Russia is consisting of one incredibly infamous man.

It's clever programming meant to dehumanize the Russian people.

The Western media did the exact same thing to Saddam Hussein... we never talked about the Iraqi people or even the Iraq government, we only mentioned Saddam, Saddam, Saddam. This was effective programming and framed Iraq as a country that consisted of one infamous man.

The American people subsequently did not object to the heinous and cruel violence that killed thousands of innocent Iraq citizens people because they simply didn't exist in their minds... we were bombing Saddam, not the Iraqi people.

One group so far is getting off the hook. The answer will come in the next paragraph. This paragraph gives the background of what went down. When did this crisis get world attention? It happened when the elected President of Ukraine suddenly aborted his engagement to the EU and called of the "marriage" just as it was time for Ukraine to sign on the dotted line. Instead he without any warning signed a pact with Russia. The EU was not happy. Many and apparently the majority of Ukrainians weren't happy about this pact with Russia.

The EU wouldn't even sign it unless Ukraine met a bunch of conditions including an IMF loan with Draconian terms tied to it.

What also prevented the signing of the Ukraine-European Union Association Agreement was the hard line set by the EU that Ukraine not participate in a 3-way trade agreement between Russia-EU-Ukraine & allow Yulia Tymoshenko to receive medical treatment abroad.

Ukraine also wanted better terms of the $4 billion dollar IMF loan and compensation for the economic hit caused by a slow down of trade with CIS countries.

Jose Manuel Barroso was quoted many times stating hard lines and outward resistance towards any attempt for Ukraine to achieve a stable 3 way trade agreement, any compensation for the economic slowndown and improved terms of the IMF loan.

Of course, there's no way our state Department has ever fomented coups in other countries through our embassy right? Our Neocon run state department was caught covertly discussing the overthrow of Ukraine's democratically elected government and we have clear evidence that the US has done this sort of thing before... shades of Iran in 1953, Chile in 1973 and countless others.

 

[rbkwp]

no matter what, the World seems to need an ogre, and Putin it is,we all seem to be guilty of it, no better person to place on that mantle
perhaps we can start a game as to who would be the next worse person we could moan about .. Jesus! the ultimate, with unlimited Power and Authority, allowing these Wars nd Disasters to continue, huh why not blame him ..

 

[Jason]

Tripod mentions that it is not Russia but the Russian Federation. There's a map of the RF here Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(I notice one of the republics, Udmurtia/16, is grey when it should be green.)

Only the areas in grey are truly Russian Russia. Additionally those in Siberia have a character of their own. Several republics (particularly in the Caucasus) appear to want their independence (Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan, perhaps others) and there have been (muted) independence movements in Karelia and Komi.

I don't know how much power Putin truly has throughout the Federation. I suspect he has power all the time he is a winner. With this in mind, Crimea was a crucial fig-leaf. He's lost influence over most of Ukraine but has made a real territorial acquisition.

We in the west need to get to know the map of Russia. What do we do when Karelia wants closer ties with Finland and the west? (Finland doesn't want Karelia as it is broke and contaminated, but Karelia was once part of Finland.) What do we do when Yakutia and the Pacific territories want to form a Greater Yakutia? What do we do when Altai and Tuva reach out to their Mongolian brethren?

 

[Perados]

We will do the same as we did about chechenia.
Or what we did about north ireland.
Or what we did about tibet.
Or what we did about srilanka and their minority.
Or what we did about the kurds in south turkey

In north mali do people fight for independency. Currently, we support the goverment and not the north.


Havnt you learned out of the past 500 years, of european Intervention, that we always made it worse and we only intervate to our own benefits?

 

[b.c.]

It's amusing to see how some here rise to the defense of Russia and Putin while casting the U.S., the EU, or "the West" as the manipulators and disseminators of "misinformation".

Too bad that isn't the whole truth:


Russia’s corrupt control of Europe: How Vladimir Putin keeps the continent weak.


'Russia has political influence in Europe because of the nature of Moscow’s European business counterparts and partners: very large companies, usually connected to oil and gas, that make very large donations to political parties."

"Rosneft, the state-owned Russian oil company—now the target of U.S. sanctions—recently bought 13 percent of the shares of Pirelli, a huge Italian tire company. The president of Rosneft, who would be refused a visa to the United States, is on Pirelli’s board."

"Last year Russian President Vladimir Putin himself came to Italy to announce the creation of a special, billion-euro Russo-Italian investment fund. The result? Italy, not France, Britain or Germany, has most assiduously blocked sanctions on Russia, and Italy is Europe’s biggest supporter of Russian “interests” in Ukraine."


"And the ultimate goal? Not money, exactly...but politics: to weaken the European Union, to prevent it from having a foreign policy, and above all to keep it from creating and maintaining a unified strategy concerning Russia."

‘Russia also backs far-right, anti-European parties that might play a disruptive role in the European Parliament, and Russia conducts an information war at many levels in Europe, too.’

 

[Perados]

Undeniable, russia uses any kind of influence they get, to minimize the eu sanctions.
But what is so special about it?
The usa doesnt act different...
May i remember how the usa had react as some european countries critics the second iraq war? - a new orientation of close allies (poland is a better ally as france). While france companies had the main part of iraqi oil, before the war, were french companies only a minority past the war - if you dont support the usa, the usa will kick ypu out of the business.

In the 1960s, the usa "forced" britain to join the eu. Britain should represent us interests.
In zhe 1950s, as germany and france became more close, forced the usa germany to sign a contract to guaranty that the usa will always be germanys closest ally.

 

[tripod]

It's amusing to see how some here rise to the defense of Russia and Putin while casting the U.S., the EU, or "the West" as the manipulators and disseminators of "misinformation".

Too bad that isn't the whole truth:


Russia’s corrupt control of Europe: How Vladimir Putin keeps the continent weak.


'Russia has political influence in Europe because of the nature of Moscow’s European business counterparts and partners: very large companies, usually connected to oil and gas, that make very large donations to political parties."

"Rosneft, the state-owned Russian oil company—now the target of U.S. sanctions—recently bought 13 percent of the shares of Pirelli, a huge Italian tire company. The president of Rosneft, who would be refused a visa to the United States, is on Pirelli’s board."

"Last year Russian President Vladimir Putin himself came to Italy to announce the creation of a special, billion-euro Russo-Italian investment fund. The result? Italy, not France, Britain or Germany, has most assiduously blocked sanctions on Russia, and Italy is Europe’s biggest supporter of Russian “interests” in Ukraine."


"And the ultimate goal? Not money, exactly...but politics: to weaken the European Union, to prevent it from having a foreign policy, and above all to keep it from creating and maintaining a unified strategy concerning Russia."

‘Russia also backs far-right, anti-European parties that might play a disruptive role in the European Parliament, and Russia conducts an information war at many levels in Europe, too.’

Anne Applebaum is flat out a NEOCON and a known Russophobe.

The problem with liberals is that they can't take a principled stance on anything.

During the Bush administration, "The Project For a New American Century" thinktank and the fellows that studied there were known as the NEOCONS and they orchestrated Bush's disastrous foreign policy that was built on a base of total-across-the-board media manipulation and Nazi-like public consent.

But... when the Obama administration is following the EXACT same NEOCON agenda coming straight out of the Project For a New American Century... it's somehow okay this time?

I wish you liberals had spines and thoughts of your own... the double standard with which Bush was a demon for doing the same things Obama is doing just shows that LIBERALS ARE THE PARTISAN EQUIVALENTS OF CONSERVATIVES.

The entire Ukraine crisis is being orchestrated and pushed by the SAME Neocons that cooked up and served the Iraq war to us. Wake the fuck up.

 

[Jason]

The entire Ukraine crisis is being orchestrated and pushed by the SAME Neocons that cooked up and served the Iraq war to us. Wake the fuck up.

This is a dangerous distraction.

Wake up! It isn't true! If we start thinking that the Ukrainian crisis and the Iraq war and I suppose just about anything else around the world is an extension of US politics we really are up the creek. In a sense it is a symptom of the US belief that everything revolves around the US.

If the US took no action whatsoever in the Ukrainian crisis the present position would be little changed. In this crisis the USA is little better than an irrelevant bystander.

 

[tripod]

This is a dangerous distraction.

Wake up! It isn't true! If we start thinking that the Ukrainian crisis and the Iraq war and I suppose just about anything else around the world is an extension of US politics we really are up the creek. In a sense it is a symptom of the US belief that everything revolves around the US.

If the US took no action whatsoever in the Ukrainian crisis the present position would be little changed. In this crisis the USA is little better than an irrelevant bystander.

This is just wishful thinking. It's erroneous and quite ignorant of the power and influence of the United States.

The fact that the same "Project For a New American Century" that brought the Iraq war to the world is also driving the Ukraine crisis is not debatable when you start digging into the actual facts.

Of course, people outside of America don't have much of a grasp of the power structures of the United States. The United States is the world power... Europe is only an economic player. Look how helpless Germany is to being spied on by the US... they can't do anything and are thinking of going back to fucking typewriters to get around the USA's global security & intelligence hegemony.

The USA Neocons roped the helpless UK into being our war buddy... they forced the UK into sharing responsibility for war crimes despite the public being against it. lolz

The UK and Europe are bit players in the global security and intelligence game... the USA calls the majority of the shots whether behind the scenes or out in the open.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Question is, Whether the US is being hypocritical in criticizing Russia for supplying weapons used to kill innocent people when the US has done the same in Israel.

Thanks for pointing out the ambiguity.

The US supporting israel is not hypocrisy. Its StateCraft and Alliance.


If you want to point the finger at US hypocrisy, then you have to invoke Iraq. Which was a country we invented a Bullshit reason to invade, for no other reason than to get access to their oil. ( no Soldiers to secure museums and hospitals in the occupation… but EVERY FUCKING OILFIELD was secured immediately )

THAT is why the US had little room to wag any fingers at Putin.

Not Israel.

 

[Freddie53]

Anne Applebaum is flat out a NEOCON and a known Russophobe.



During the Bush administration, "The Project For a New American Century" thinktank and the fellows that studied there were known as the NEOCONS and they orchestrated Bush's disastrous foreign policy that was built on a base of total-across-the-board media manipulation and Nazi-like public consent.

But... when the Obama administration is following the EXACT same NEOCON agenda coming straight out of the Project For a New American Century... it's somehow okay this time?

I wish you liberals had spines and thoughts of your own... the double standard with which Bush was a demon for doing the same things Obama is doing just shows that LIBERALS ARE THE PARTISAN EQUIVALENTS OF CONSERVATIVES.

The entire Ukraine crisis is being orchestrated and pushed by the SAME Neocons that cooked up and served the Iraq war to us. Wake the fuck up.

Interesting accusation against Obama as being a Neo-Con! Dick Cheney, the loud mouth crusader for going to Iraq the second time is now going around mouthing concern that Obama lost Iraq. The Neo-Cons want Obama to send in the American army to restore order and make the new super fundamentalist Sunnis disappear of the face of the world. Obama wants no part of doing such a thing.

Obama has been criticized now for his entire presidency for his plan to bring American troops, all of them, home, which he did, I believe in 2011. Not sure the year.

Obama is not a liberal from the left. Obama only appears liberal when compared to the Republicans.

Obama is a graduate of Harvard. Harvard is the preferred school from which the large corporations get their new executives.

The left wing of the Democratic Party are definitely to the left of Obama. They have made their opinions made known through the years. Our US media doesn't report much of what they have to say because the much of the media is owned by Neo-Cons.

Exactly how has the US been a direct instigator of trouble in the Ukrainian crisis? What role did the US play in the negotiations between Ukraine and the EU prior to the announcement that Ukraine had agreed to a deal with Russia, not the EU.

With the intense hatred of Russia by most Ukrainians, it would not seem likely that Ukraine would want to be that cozy with the Russians. Russia may not at the beginning used military superiority at the beginning. They didn't need to. Instead they used economic persuasion very effectively to get Ukrainian government to agree to an economic pact written by Russia.

The Ukrainian people rebelled at this. The democratically government collapsed. It was not overthrown. Within just months Ukraine had new elections so that the government is a democratic one.

The US has imposed sanctions on Russia. The EU is too fragmented on the issue to do very much.

I haven't read where the US has been using laser guided misses from afar into eastern Ukraine against the rebels nor has the US sent these missiles to wipe out the anti-aircraft capacities and artillery of the Russian troops on the border.

I was out of town for a few days and missed one day news in the daily newspaper. So much can happen in just one day.:biggrin1:

Perhaps it was that day when it was announced how the US had taken military action against the rebels in eastern Ukraine and also in Russia! Putin is so afraid of the US that he hasn't filed a complaint with the US State Department.:biggrin1: If you believe that, I have some great beach front property in the middle of the Arctic Ocean. I'll be glad to sell it to you at a great bargain price!


Look at the difference between what happened in Western Europe after WWII when America was the leading partner in rebuilding Western Europe after the Europeans had destroyed each other during the war. Then look at how the USSR was the leading partner in rebuilding Eastern Europe.

Comparing how East Germany and West Germany fared after WWII shows a vast difference between Russia and the US as leaders. East Germany could have been as prosperous as West Germany, but not under domination of the USSR.

Look at what happened when the "American colony" West Germany absorbed East Germany. East Germany has benefited greatly.

I will be the first to condemn what Bush the Stupid did in Iraq in 2003. The notes from daily briefings leading up to 9/11 show that the US had intelligence about the possible terroristic attack. Bush, the Stupid, dismissed the idea of a terroristic attack. The Democrats should have called his hand for incompetence after 9/11.

Instead, the Democrats sat on their hands while the US went to war. Most of you didn't lose a son in Iraq. I didn't lose a son, but I lost a beloved student whose mother was a very, "almost family" friend. That son came to see me when I was very ill in the hospital. I am personally angry over Iraq. I blame Bush, the Stupid, for the death of a young man who was very precious to me.

However, I suspect that some are letting Iraq and some other American mistakes bleed into the concept that everything America does is evil.

We all need to look at each situation and evaluate it by itself, not include unrelated events and or other points in time in that evaluation.

I'm also speaking to myself when I say this.

We may not know for sure the day to day details, but the evidence is building that Russia is directing, training and supplying materials and arms to the east Ukrainian separatists.

The anti-air missiles were sophisticated Russian missiles brought into Ukraine to use agaisnt any hostile air craft in the air. I believe that the destruction of the passenger plane was a mistake on the part of the Ukrainian rebels.

I also beleive that the Russians hauled ass in getting those missiles back into Russia after the disaster that one of the missiles had done.

We should make the leaders who want to do such evil things such as war go and fight on the front lines themselves as foot soldiers. Perhaps, there would be more incentive to keep the world at peace.