Can someone explain college to me, please?

B_henry miller

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Only one responding to my thread ... sad. :( Oh well.

Anyway, I just realized the difference here. I grew up with my art teachers being mentors, whereas college professors treat their students like they are their employees and the professors are the boss. It's very cold. They do not want to be your mentor, and they see it as beneath them to suggest that they should. Also, most professors approach their students with a degree of contempt and bigotry that is uncalled for.
 

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Only one responding to my thread ... sad. :( Oh well.

Anyway, I just realized the difference here. I grew up with my art teachers being mentors, whereas college professors treat their students like they are their employees and the professors are the boss. It's very cold. They do not want to be your mentor, and they see it as beneath them to suggest that they should. Also, most professors approach their students with a degree of contempt and bigotry that is uncalled for.

It is not that people do not want to respond to your queries, Henry, but rather they probably do not know what other insight to provide to you.

College is so much more than what you make it. Your experiences are those of your own. No one can embellish, enhance or eliminate those but you. You are the proprietor and how you choose to engage in this opportunity is again, your choice.

It seems to me that you simply feel there is nothing you can learn or gain from the collegiate experience. It appears you seemingly know everything, or at least feel you have a vast knowledge base on the subject at hand. However, again, the learning that takes place in college is something that allows you, as a scholar, to develop your own conclusions, ideas or thoughts in a more global and wholistic way than most people traditionally would think. Sure, there are going to be times when you know material or you feel that doing something a different way, e.g., technique, etc., might be more beneficial or operative for you, but you do it the way the professor prescribed. That is called maturity. It is also called discipline. Not everything one wants in life will be as carefree as you may think. This discipline, or as you might prefer to call it – coldness, enables you to collectively build and engage yourself into a different realm while offering you the “credentials” later to prove your point, or in your case, possibly technique.

The mentorship, and yes, as an academic I can assure you it is mentorship, you are receiving is to help you access the field/discipline you are aspiring towards. Those scholars, whom you feel are capricious, are there to aid you in that endeavor. They, too, were students once and had to learn the system. Much research, production and sharing of knowledge with other scholars has given them an edge to proactively share with you and others the value of theory, technique and eventually application. Sure, they are, in a manner of speaking, your boss. They’ve earned that right. They are not there to be your “peer.” If that is what you are looking for, then my friend, college might not be for you.

Utilize your opportunities to create newer ones; refresh yourself and challenge your mind to be more open than what it seems. Who knows – you might find some of that “useless” knowledge helpful in your future.

Regards,
An academic/professor/administrator
 

JustAsking

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One thing college does for you is to expose you to a lot of fields that you had no idea existed or no idea what it was about if you did. High School seniors usually have no idea of what is possible at the time when they are being asked to choose a major.

I have a neighbor who dutifully went to college and was not sure what he was going to major in. So he majored in Business. He was ok with that choice, but had no real passion for it. Coming up to his last semester, he realized he needed one more science elective or something like that and he signed up for Geology 101.

So here he is one week into Geo 101, in his last semester of his senior year, he realizes that he absolutely loved the field of geology. He loved it so much that he wished that he had taken the course early enough so he could have changed his major. Unfortunately, it was too late at that point, so he graduated and ended up in business, but not really on fire about it.

My point in telling the story is that college is a mind expanding experience and just the sheer exposure to what is out there is valuable. So if you feel no passion about what you are studying, take some really unusual courses for the express purpose of exposure.

Who knows? Maybe you would be an awesome investment analyst , or a project manager, or a chemist, etc. How would you know until you see it?

Even after college, a lot of people change their field of occupation. And in almost all cases, their college career was an enabler of what they were doing before and after the change, regardless of whether the change was into the field they majored in.
 

B_henry miller

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Thanks for the response.

You're actually hitting on something here. I could actually teach the classes I'm taking. I have as much experience in the subject as the teachers; the only difference is that they got their experience in college, which allows them to teach the subject in college. I got my experience in the real world, which means I can't teach in college. The only reason I'm at college is to get a degree so I can teach in college, or to at least make that an option.

The other problem is that the classes are mediocre. But I don't have the option to go elsewhere.

I guess I just have to accept that I'm in an unusual position. Overall, I'm happy in college. I know that might not come across in my posts. The only thing I'm happy about is that it is allowing me to socialize with others who are interested in the topic I'm majoring in. And I'm happy at the prospect of more opportunities once I have the degree.

I suppose that's the main irony here. In college, the very point of it all -- learning -- seems so secondary to everything. There are a lot of very smart people who drop out of college because they can't take the rest of the bullshit that comes with it.

Thanks.

It is not that people do not want to respond to your queries, Henry, but rather they probably do not know what other insight to provide to you.

It seems to me that you simply feel there is nothing you can learn or gain from the collegiate experience. It appears you seemingly know everything, or at least feel you have a vast knowledge base on the subject at hand.
 

B_henry miller

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Thanks for the response.

It's not that I have no passion for the subect. I have a lot of passion for it. I just don't understand the ass backward way that it's taught in college.


My point in telling the story is that college is a mind expanding experience and just the sheer exposure to what is out there is valuable. So if you feel no passion about what you are studying, take some really unusual courses for the express purpose of exposure.
 

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The most intricate game of "Connect the Dots" you'll ever play!

Really, that's all it is; take class X to complete the square and win another against life, but because you drew a line from X to Y instead of X to Z you lose Z for a while.

It's kind of fun really, but sadly I am not seeing the sex-craved imbeciles or drunk teens yet, and I want to see this spectacle so that I may point / laugh.
 

Principessa

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Henry Miller, it seems you were fortunate enough to do what in days of yor was called an apprenticeship. This is most uncommon today. Since most of your fellow students were not as lucky, they need college to teach them what you already know.

Many subjects are taught backwards at the high school and university level. IMO, rudimentary physics should be taught first not last. it's a good basis upon which to build the other sciences.
 

B_henry miller

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Thanks.

Yes, my experience was rare, and the thing I realized early on is that if I don't tred lightly I will be a threat to the professors. Professors have egos, and they don't want some "show off" in class demonstrating that they know as much and are as experienced as they are.

Maybe THAT'S the real question here, the one I intended to ask from the start: How do I get through college without stepping on the toes of my professors, without making it too obvious that I don't really "belong" in college but am merely there for the paper (degree) that will give me more opportunities once I have it?

For me, it's a simple issue of economics. I need a degree in order to make more money in the field I'm in. But I can't be that blunt to my teachers. They don't want to think they have some student with this perspective, because then they'll think I don't take their classes seriously -- and my GPA will suffer because ... the unspoken truth of the education system is that there is nothing more subjective than grading, and much of it is based on teacher's personal opinions on the students -- ESPECIALLY where the Humanities are concerned.
 

B_henry miller

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That's why I laugh at this idea that what they are teaching us is "independence." LOL. :biggrin1: Yeah, being given a list of all the criteria I must meet, being told when and where to be and what to do and by which date and time to do it and what the correct answers are and how I shouldn't do an assigment, and then having my success measured for me by others (in the most subjective subject of all -- art -- where "good" and "bad" is merely a matter of personal opinion) sure makes me feel independent.

The most intricate game of "Connect the Dots" you'll ever play!

Really, that's all it is; take class X to complete the square and win another against life, but because you drew a line from X to Y instead of X to Z you lose Z for a while.

It's kind of fun really, but sadly I am not seeing the sex-craved imbeciles or drunk teens yet, and I want to see this spectacle so that I may point / laugh.
 

PWRSTRK

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The mentorship, and yes, as an academic I can assure you it is mentorship, you are receiving is to help you access the field/discipline you are aspiring towards. Those scholars, whom you feel are capricious, are there to aid you in that endeavor. They, too, were students once and had to learn the system. Much research, production and sharing of knowledge with other scholars has given them an edge to proactively share with you and others the value of theory, technique and eventually application. Sure, they are, in a manner of speaking, your boss. They’ve earned that right. They are not there to be your “peer.” If that is what you are looking for, then my friend, college might not be for you.

Utilize your opportunities to create newer ones; refresh yourself and challenge your mind to be more open than what it seems. Who knows – you might find some of that “useless” knowledge helpful in your future.

Regards,
An academic/professor/administrator


Ditto... and thanks to YourAvgGuy for saying what I was thinking about how to state...

Another academic/professor/administrator
 

JustAsking

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Henry Miller, it seems you were fortunate enough to do what in days of yor was called an apprenticeship. This is most uncommon today. Since most of your fellow students were not as lucky, they need college to teach them what you already know.

Many subjects are taught backwards at the high school and university level. IMO, rudimentary physics should be taught first not last. it's a good basis upon which to build the other sciences.
nj,
This is sage wisdom, girl. You are totally correct in my estimation. I remember learning all kinds of seeming isolated stuff about Classical Mechanics as if it were some kind of memorization exercise. Then in Junior year they tell you to forget all that stuff and just learn these few diff eqs and derive it all from that. Uh duh, I said, why didn't you just teach us this from the get go?

In fact, the first few years of Physics could have been avoided by just teaching the stuff they taught you in junior year.
 

RogersPkBi

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you have a pretty awesome cock yourself. It used to be high school was for basic educating to give you the ability to do more advanced studies. college was to gain knowledge of the "big ideas" of the world and more in depth scientific knowledge. Then you'd go on to professional studies for whatever your chosen field is. But, depending on the field you go into, some people get all the technical knowledge they need by the time they finish high school. Unfortunately, they miss out on alot of those "big ideas" which are important to our civilization. For now, enjoy your studies, expand your mind. If you end up with the technical knowledge you need at the end of four years to do what you want to do, great. if not, go for an advanced degree.
 

snoozan

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First, thanks. :redface:

Second, don't get me wrong, obscure branch of art or not, if it's what you love to do, you should be studying it. I'm just saying you may feel like the point of everything you're taking is vague because you aren't taking a pointed major like, say, biochemistry. Art is probably one of the most subjective and vague majors you can have because it's such a nebulous field to begin with.

I started out at 17 years old as a biochemisty major and ended at 25 with a Bachelor of Fine Arts. I'd have to say I felt much more grounded and purposeful working toward my art degree than I did my science degree because of where my head was when I was studying. At 17, I knew I was smart and should be in college, but I was immature and more interested in the social aspect of school than the academic one. Once I went back, I knew exactly what I wanted to do and why, and I loved it. I don't think the major had much to do with that.

One of my degrees is in the arts, and I felt the classes I took for it were generally much less about teaching me facts and much more about teaching me how to think, while the science courses were much more like a very long list of facts, and that I didn't learn how to really think about science until I started working in a lab.


This can be very true. Honestly, I was much more intellectually challenged as an art student than as a science student-- though part of it was what I was willing to put in. I found that being an art major I was much more self-directed as well as less able to bullshit my way through project the way I could bullshit my way through and exam.

Or did you interpret my use of the words "vague" and "subjective" as being a knock against the arts? Because they aren't. I wouldn't have bothered with getting a BA if I thought it wasn't worthwhile.
I took it that way too. May I spank you?

Okay, I am already proficient in the profession I am working to get a degree in, a branch of art. The reason I'm working to get a degree in it is that I have had to accept that merely having a degree in this topic will open more opportunities for me.

First and foremost, this is bullshit. I don't care how many years you've spent doing your obscure branch of art, there's always room for more education and learning. I don't know much about your exact situation, but I have had countless students and assistants come to me with the attitude that they know everything and I have nothing to teach them. That attitude sucks, and as a student I was very humbled having to learn that no matter how much I think I know, I always have something to learn from everyone.

About the "non-personal" aspect of college ... I was taught the trade I'm studying prior to college. I am better at this trade than most in college. And those who taught me this trade treated me in a very personalized way.
When I went to school, I was better and more experienced at my trade than most others as well. Instead of treating it as an opportunity to get a degree to be legitimate, I took the time to push myself as hard as I could as an artist. It doesn't matter that you're better than your peers. It matters that every day you're a little bit better than yourself. If you're truly an artist, you're going to find that it's a mostly thankless profession and the joy you'll derive from being a working artist will come from working with others in your field and pushing yourself artistically.

Maybe your professors don't care because of your attitude. Maybe they just expect you to work more independently than your mentors did. I don't know. What I do know is that they have something to teach you because they have been working artists for many years. Art professorships are hard to get because there are very few spots for many candidates. The last time the school I went to needed a professor they got 900 applications for one position. They are the best and most well-regarded in their field, and that's not the case for nothing.

It's odd that I'm doing better in my college classes than most people, and I'm doing better because I had personlized attention from experienced artists ... and yet in college they want you to be impersonal.

In other words, it's all counter intuitive. I am better than the other college students because I was taught the opposite of what they were taught, to be personal in approach. If they really want these students to be good at this, why teach them to be impersonal?
I don't know if you are better, and as I stated before, that's not what matters while you're in college. You have four years to spend educating yourself and working on your artwork with almost no restriction. It will be much different in the work world. This is your time to learn how to work with others, how to critique other work, and, as Guy-Jin said, think.

The other truth is that the art world is very impersonal. Most artists find their group of peers, but for the most part, you're on your own in terms of what you'll do and how you'll do it. Having a mentor is wonderful but it's the exception, not the rule.

In other words, I really don't think art can be taught on an assembly line. College is an assembly line. It's odd for me to "go through the motions" of being on an assembly line, all the while knowing consciously now unnecessary it is.
It's only an assembly line because you're treating it that way. I don't know what year you're in, but I know the first two years for me were difficult because I was already pretty focused on where I was going. Regardless, I took those years and managed to learn a lot that I didn't think I needed to know. There is always something to learn from every situation and every class. If you don't feel that way about a particular class, go ahead and talk to a professor about your concerns. In my experience, talking to my instructors about my education really helped me learn why I was doing something and what I could take away from it.

Yes, my experience was rare, and the thing I realized early on is that if I don't tred lightly I will be a threat to the professors. Professors have egos, and they don't want some "show off" in class demonstrating that they know as much and are as experienced as they are.
Oh come now. Like I said, these people are the best in their fields. You don't know more or have more experience than them, and even if you did, you can still learn from them. Again, I had this attitude as an undergrad and I'm embarrassed to think back at how arrogant I was sometimes. Without you giving further detail, I can't see how you have more experience than someone with a terminal degree in their field, a solid exhibition record, experience working in their field, and years teaching. In my experience I've been less intimidated by precocious students and more annoyed by them because they don't want to slow down and learn things the way I want to teach them.

Maybe THAT'S the real question here, the one I intended to ask from the start: How do I get through college without stepping on the toes of my professors, without making it too obvious that I don't really "belong" in college but am merely there for the paper (degree) that will give me more opportunities once I have it?
Stop being so arrogant and take the opportunity to practice your craft in a way that you'll never truly be able to again. In my particular field I don't need a degree unless I'm teaching, but because I spent the time making myself better regardless of what was going around me, I got better. If you want to be good, push yourself hard now while you can. College is a singular experience where you have enough independence to either do nothing, do something and get by (even with a 4.0 average you can just be "getting by), or really learn. If you don't do the latter you're wasting the opportunity, and that's a shame.
For me, it's a simple issue of economics. I need a degree in order to make more money in the field I'm in. But I can't be that blunt to my teachers. They don't want to think they have some student with this perspective, because then they'll think I don't take their classes seriously -- and my GPA will suffer because ... the unspoken truth of the education system is that there is nothing more subjective than grading, and much of it is based on teacher's personal opinions on the students -- ESPECIALLY where the Humanities are concerned.
This is total bullshit. Sit down with a couple of your professors and tell them this and I guarantee you they won't be intimidated or upset because of your bluntness. You'd be surprised, some of them may actually be able to help you resolve your conflict because I imagine many of them have been where you are right now. You're an adult, and being able to speak to your professors frankly about the education you're getting is something you should be able to do. If you have concerns they should be able to address them as long as you don't belittle them by telling them everything they do is bullshit (which seems to be what you're saying). By not taking your classes seriously you're doing no one a disservice but yourself. Your professors have seen hundreds of students who don't give a shit or feel like their classes are bullshit. They are unimpressed and unintimidated by that attitude.
 

snoozan

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That's why I laugh at this idea that what they are teaching us is "independence." LOL. :biggrin1: Yeah, being given a list of all the criteria I must meet, being told when and where to be and what to do and by which date and time to do it and what the correct answers are and how I shouldn't do an assigment, and then having my success measured for me by others (in the most subjective subject of all -- art -- where "good" and "bad" is merely a matter of personal opinion) sure makes me feel independent.

First of all, there's a degree of craft to all art forms that you have to learn. Again, I'm not sure what field of study you're in, but if you ever expect to have clients or work for someone, you better know how to meet criteria and deadlines or you'll never be successful. Your clients will always judge you-- and an uninformed client is a hell of a lot harder to work for than an educated artist because they generally don't know what they want and wouldn't know good art if it hit them on the head.

One thing I learned in art school was how the basics of art and design work and why sometimes art criticism isn't all that subjective. Yes, you'll get shit grades for work you love and good grades for crap, but you can take that as an opportunity to learn. The students, graduate assistants, and instructors in college are an invaluable resource for learning about your art and the art world itself, and if you see their opinions/grades as bullshit because they are somewhat subjective, you're squandering one of only times in life you'll be surrounded by other artists. There's always something to learn from other artists even if you think you know more than they do and are way better than they are.

From what I can tell, you have a lot of growing up to do. College is a wonderful place to do it. It's also really easy to waste 4 or more years in college. I did that the first time.
 

B_henry miller

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Well, I'm going to respond to this little piece, and part of me thinks I shouldn't even respond to this because your tone is relatively rude here. It gets ruder as your response progresses, which is why I'm not responding any further.

Again, let's revisit the fact that I'm on the Honor Roll, okay? I have not gone in to any of these classes with an attitude that I have nothing to learn. If anything, I go in to these classes with more humbleness and openness than most of the other students -- usually even sitting in the back of the class. And the bulk of my interaction with my teachers actually boils down to kissing ass and making sure that they do not think that I know what is apparent to both of us: that I am just as educated in the subject as they are, either rivaling or superior to their technical ability.

Actually, I think that's about it. I don't have anything to justify to you. Your tone is arrogant and hostile and I have nothing to justify or prove to you. Your attitude is actually an excellent example of what I say about college: that it's full of teachers/administrators with big egos who approach honest questions with contempt and who look down on their students. I have to deal with this in my real off-line life. I'm not gonna deal with it here. :cool:

First and foremost, this is bullshit. I don't care how many years you've spent doing your obscure branch of art, there's always room for more education and learning. I don't know much about your exact situation, but I have had countless students and assistants come to me with the attitude that they know everything and I have nothing to teach them. That attitude sucks, and as a student I was very humbled having to learn that no matter how much I think I know, I always have something to learn from everyone.
 

B_henry miller

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Apparently you aren't reading what I wrote, so I'll repeat it.

I already have enough training to teach this craft, and I have actually done so. Fellow artists who own schools and teach and are successful do not have degrees in this subject because it's not necessary. They have suggested that I forgo college altogether and just open my own school.

HOWEVER ... a degree is necessary if you want to teach in a college campus, which I may want to do at some point. I want to keep my options open. I've known of many good teachers who have not been allowed to teach on a campus because they do not have a degree. It's kind of ironic: you don't need a degree to do what I do; you need a degree to teach what I do -- if you want to teach it on a college campus. (And most who do what I do and are successful at it weren't taught in college. Most who are taught in college will do something else once they've graduated.)

So all any of it boils down to is the arrogance of academia and the bias society has for people who have degrees.

First of all, there's a degree of craft to all art forms that you have to learn. Again, I'm not sure what field of study you're in, but if you ever expect to have clients or work for someone, you better know how to meet criteria and deadlines or you'll never be successful.
 

B_henry miller

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Oh, one more thing....

I'm not saying I haven't learned anything. I have certainly learned things. But mostly all I've learned is how to navigate the procedural requirements of college. That's all any of it is about. I mean, I've had some assignments in English class where I have to explain the procedure I plan to follow for research, lol, "Um ... I'm going to read a few books ... and then write about what I read ... and put my ideas in there as well." Does that really need to be explained? The reassurance I have to go through to assure the teacher that I'm "following the rules" and "learning" actually get in the god-damned way of learning. THIS is why a lot of highly intelligent people drop out of college and don't do well in school in general.

The procedural requirements of college are what take precedent over everything. All any of it boils down to is conditioning people to follow rules. And these rules were put in place by the type of people who become librarians, etc. It's pretty funny.
 

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First of all, this is an interesting choice of forums for a philosophical discussion on secondary education... and you do have a nice cock.

Second, Henry, if you really want the degree, you have to play the game. That's it. It doesn't really matter how you feel about the game or whether you agree with the rules that have been written over the years. Society created the game. You can't change it. You are but one pawn. If you want to pursue your dreams and achieve a "higher education", then you'll have to set aside all the intrinsic ironies and just play along. Besides, if you have an open mind, the social benefits can be invaluable.

Third, you do start to come across as slightly arrogant in your later postings. Believe me, you are not the first person to go to college to earn a degree in a field of which you already have some real-world experience. You sound young. One thing your professors likely have that you don't is age... and with age comes wisdom. There is a crucial difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Finally -- and I'm surprised no one has asked yet -- what exactly is it that you do?