Can someone explain college to me, please?

[slate_australis]

In Australia you generally have to know what area you're going to study BEFORE you go. As what area you study economics/humantities etc etc have different score required. It's hard, you can't jump around and try a bit of this and bit of that.

That's what I LOVED when I studied in the US, I did drama, history, international finance.

Plus we don't have a "college culture" most people live at home during Uni, or live off-campus. In my case my campus was dead by 5pm on a normal day. Another thing I loved about the US.

I got my degree in political science and history, but something a family friend told me, your degree gets you your first job, what you do with that one gets you the rest.

My advice, just sort out what you officially need to do to get whatever qualification you need, but enjoy all the experiences it offers. Because you'll likely never be so free again.

 

[LeeEJ]

Maybe THAT'S the real question here, the one I intended to ask from the start: How do I get through college without stepping on the toes of my professors, without making it too obvious that I don't really "belong" in college but am merely there for the paper (degree) that will give me more opportunities once I have it?

Don't sweat it -- there are kids who are in college for all kinds of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with academics. You won't step on your professors' toes unless you start trying to teach the class or question them in front of everyone else.

The best aspect of college for me was the opportunity to only do what I wanted to do. I could literally spend all of my waking hours doing music stuff. As a result, I do have a leg up on others who haven't had the same chance.

Your other concern -- knowing more than some of your professors -- is yet another opportunity to learn. The difference is that you'll learn how to deal with people -- particularly, people in your field.

I think this is quite important, actually. Between now and the end of time, you'll encounter superiors, clients, coworkers, and others who know less than you do. There's a trick to working with them that can make them feel encouraged and happier. I've only gotten a handle on it over the past few years, though, and I can't exactly describe it -- but it definitely began while in college.

 

[HotBulge]

Henry,

Let me join the chorus with comments/opinions about the purpose of college. Before presenting my position, let met outwardly state that you seem to be coming from a position of relative privilege to adopt the attitude that you have. (I feel comfortable in the assertion as I have a privileged perspective in my educational background). Don't take that privileged position for granted, as it may also change

College has several overlapping (and slightly contradictory) positions.

1. Above all, college should as a foundation for one's life education. Learning how to think critically and argue rigorously (by proof), to analyze and synthesize information, and to quantify are hallmarks of a sound education. College should also serve as an exposure to novel ideas, people with diverse backgrounds who can augment your own, and the best of many cultural expressions and traditions. A college education is an exercise in drawing forth one's ability to reason and think methodically. In other words, it's not about the facts that you come across but rather how you learn to process those facts and act intelligently with them.

2. Credentialing -- Yes, unless one plans to exist on a trust fund for the rest of one's life, most of us need to use parts of college as a form of credentialing. You certify to the world that you have rigorously studied a certain area of knowledge. Admittedly, many people will not work in the field which they studied in college, but it is important to take one's training from the academic experience and move forward.

---> NJQT has 3.5 degrees from art history to nearly plastics engineering. I have an undergrad degree in biochemistry and am finishing a masters in computer science. As we grow older/up, we make life changes or course corrections, which often involves a re-education or re-tooling to meet new challenges.

3. In college, learn the theories well, but also focus on the applications. Earning $$ is ultimately in the application of one's knowledge. One very bad conceit of academia, in general, is the elitist tendency to focus only on the theory when it's the practice of a discipline that society also needs. In the sciences, it's well understood that one would never just study "theories in science" without having some experimentation/practical application to complement the studies. In the social sciences and humanities, the value of the "practice" if often left as an aside, even though the practice may be the most valuable aspect of one's education in the end!

---> Henry, art history/the theory of aesthetics/visual studies, is quite an interesting pursuit. It is a privilege to devote a certain period of time to these studies. Admittedly, the content is highly rooted in subjectivities and theories of interpretation. You, however, still probably have to figure out a way how to transform what you know into something that can earn a living. ...
The easy/straight-forward way is to go seek employment at a museum where one's academic background in art history has the most relevance. If you decide to spend years in a museum environment, you will ultimately have to figure out how to become a curator or director, which involves further studies in business, finance, and management as applied to the art world.
IF, however, you have more of a "production" oriented mindset and know digital arts programs - FLASH, In Design, digital video experience, you can use the elements of your academic training and apply them to the digital domain. You will then have to work to rise in positions that are multi-media intensive, but you will need years to develop portfolio pieces and become established. You may end up returning to school for an MFA if so...I merely am presenting practical avenues of growth and education for your future.
IF, you feel that art history has no appeal to you in any application, you may find yourself seeking (re) education to ultimately do what you desire. Never forget that education is a life-long pursuit and do think of many people in their 30s and 40s who seek advanced education or re-education into an entirely new field.. (Nursing is both popular and lucrative at the moment: people are goingback in droves to take science courses to meet the critical shortage in nursing care. These are the same people who thought they would not hack it in science courses earlier on as high school students or traditional college kids).


4. College is a place to grow up.

The 19th century notion of sequestering adolescents from the rest of society to "grow up" is a bit bewildering. It's like assembling people who have little or no clue about many aspects of life and telling them "to figure life out" on their own. College does afford time for some personal experimentation and growth and gaining a sense of independence and personal responsibility. Use the social freedoms of college wisely for that purpose.

 

[LeeEJ]

4. College is a place to grow up.

The 19th century notion of sequestering adolescents from the rest of society to "grow up" is a bit bewildering. It's like assembling people who have little or no clue about many aspects of life and telling them "to figure life out" on their own. College does afford time for some personal experimentation and growth and gaining a sense of independence and personal responsibility. Use the social freedoms of college wisely for that purpose.

"There's a time and a place for everything, and it's called 'college'."

- Kyle's mom :biggrin1:

or was it Chef... or Principal Victoria.... or Mr/Mrs Garrison...

 

[snoozan]

I already have enough training to teach this craft, and I have actually done so. Fellow artists who own schools and teach and are successful do not have degrees in this subject because it's not necessary. They have suggested that I forgo college altogether and just open my own school.

What is it that you do anyway? To be honest, if what you do is in relatively high demand you're probably better off opening a school yourself anyway because university wages are shit.

HOWEVER ... a degree is necessary if you want to teach in a college campus, which I may want to do at some point. I want to keep my options open. I've known of many good teachers who have not been allowed to teach on a campus because they do not have a degree. It's kind of ironic: you don't need a degree to do what I do; you need a degree to teach what I do -- if you want to teach it on a college campus. (And most who do what I do and are successful at it weren't taught in college.

I'm in the exact same position as you are. Most people in my field are not degreed. I worked in my field for years before I got a degree. I got a degree because I want to have the option to teach (though universities by and large will not hire you without an MFA) and because it gave me four years to spend doing nothing but artwork while being surrounded by other artists.

I know you're on the honor roll, but I bullshitted my way through 3 1/2 years of a biochem degree on the honor roll. It wasn't until became invested in my education that I truly learned anything.

I think your attitude sucks, but maybe it'll work for you and maybe you'll do very well in your chosen profession. It just seems to me that with your attitude you're squandering resources and connections that could be very valuable later. If you say you want to teach at the university level, the connections you make in academia starting in undergrad are extremely important. You can call it asskissing if you want, but a lot of it is also getting to know people who have done what you want to do and they deserve respect for that.

If you think college is stupid and useless, you're going to get a stupid and useless piece of paper out of it. Why not open your school now and go back when you feel you would appreciate an education?

 

[B_henry miller]

With regard to what I do ... um, I'm attempting to keep at least a small degree of anonymity here. Having shown my cock (and thanks for the compliments :biggrin1 I'd like to keep at least some things private.

About playing the game, yes, I am aware that I have to do that if I want the degree. As I've already mentioned, I have a high GPA which demonstrates I'm good at playing the game.

It is actually my desire to play the game well that led to me starting this discussion here on this forum. I want to compare and contrast the average student experience with my own experience and then weigh what the teachers will think of that ... all because I want to do as well as possible at "playing the game." I can't mess around here. I feel like the clock is really ticking and I'm late in the game already.

If I come across as arrogant in the most recent posts, it's actually defensiveness. I've been involved with the branch of art that I'm majoring in since early childhood. I've put in more than my share of hard work in this genre. But it was within a context that is completely alien to the university setting, and this has caused me some problems. I got a bit pissed off to read some people say that what is leaving me feeling "fish out of water" is my lack of dedication, work ethic, etc. No, it's that studying ANYTHING at a university/college level is very different from studying/doing it in the outside "real" world, PARTICULARLY where art is concerned.

And if you look back, you'll see that most of the people who have accused me of being undisciplined (after 20+ years in my field, after a 3.70 GPA) appear to be professors/administrators at colleges who, in my opinion, are perhaps offended by the idea that someone is suggesting that college isn't perfect. And they have even, without any evidence whatsoever, entirely incorrectly accused me of being arrogant in class -- when in fact I'm one of the most humble and ass-kissing sudents there is (because I'm going to do what it takes to succeed at this, up to and including having to endure insults on this forum if in the long run it will benefit my performance in college).

Thanks for listening.

First of all, this is an interesting choice of forums for a philosophical discussion on secondary education... and you do have a nice cock.

Second, Henry, if you really want the degree, you have to play the game. That's it. It doesn't really matter how you feel about the game or whether you agree with the rules that have been written over the years. Society created the game. You can't change it. You are but one pawn. If you want to pursue your dreams and achieve a "higher education", then you'll have to set aside all the intrinsic ironies and just play along. Besides, if you have an open mind, the social benefits can be invaluable.

Third, you do start to come across as slightly arrogant in your later postings. Believe me, you are not the first person to go to college to earn a degree in a field of which you already have some real-world experience. You sound young. One thing your professors likely have that you don't is age... and with age comes wisdom. There is a crucial difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Finally -- and I'm surprised no one has asked yet -- what exactly is it that you do?

 

[B_dxjnorto]

I can't really explain college. I keep ending up there because modern society encourages us to become more and more specialized. It's like convincing people to trade goods and services for fancy printed slips of paper. Once it becomes established, that's how societies function.

Hopefully my student loans will be forgiven when I die of old age.

 

[B_henry miller]

Actually, NOW we're getting somewhere. If there is ANYTHING I'm learning in college, it is what you write here: how to get along with others in my field. So, it's actually not only academic for me. It's also socialization. Also, after so many years of experience in my field, it is interesting to go to a university and learn what society deems important enough about my field to teach in college.

What I mean is, it's interesting to see the college perspective on my field. It's interesting because it gives me a feel for larger society's perspective on my field.

Your other concern -- knowing more than some of your professors -- is yet another opportunity to learn. The difference is that you'll learn how to deal with people -- particularly, people in your field.

I think this is quite important, actually. Between now and the end of time, you'll encounter superiors, clients, coworkers, and others who know less than you do. There's a trick to working with them that can make them feel encouraged and happier. I've only gotten a handle on it over the past few years, though, and I can't exactly describe it -- but it definitely began while in college.

 

[B_henry miller]

I'm in the exact same position as you are. Most people in my field are not degreed. I worked in my field for years before I got a degree. I got a degree because I want to have the option to teach (though universities by and large will not hire you without an MFA) and because it gave me four years to spend doing nothing but artwork while being surrounded by other artists.

This is actually the thing that I am getting out of the situation too. It's giving me an opportunity I may not have otherwise, a chance to be focused only on this artwork while being surrounded by others who are involved with this artwork.

I know you're on the honor roll, but I bullshitted my way through 3 1/2 years of a biochem degree on the honor roll. It wasn't until became invested in my education that I truly learned anything.

That's part of the problem I'm talking about. So much of it feels like bullshit. I hope you will remember this statement of yours the next time you tell me my attitude sucks.

I think your attitude sucks, but maybe it'll work for you and maybe you'll do very well in your chosen profession. It just seems to me that with your attitude you're squandering resources and connections that could be very valuable later. If you say you want to teach at the university level, the connections you make in academia starting in undergrad are extremely important. You can call it asskissing if you want, but a lot of it is also getting to know people who have done what you want to do and they deserve respect for that.

Here we go again with people assuming things about me. What makes you think I'm not making connections, that I'm squandering resources, that I am not respecting the teachers? If anything, I'm questioning the validity of the whole university/college system. I give my teachers as much respect as any human being deserves. There's a difference between respect and fear. I ass kiss when necessary because I realize that if I don't then my GPA will fall and there goes my grants ... I fear losing the grants.

If you think college is stupid and useless, you're going to get a stupid and useless piece of paper out of it. Why not open your school now and go back when you feel you would appreciate an education?

So what you're basically saying is that college is what you make it. Isn't that the way it is with everything in life? If so, then why will society often trust a degreed person over a non-degreed but experienced person? Because society has placed a lot of importance on that "useless piece of paper." College is not what I make it. College is what society has made it, and society has made it something necessary if you want to be taken seriously by most of society.

 

[B_henry miller]

LOL. I could have written this. Thanks. This is exactly where I'm at.

I can't really explain college. I keep ending up there because modern society encourages us to become more and more specialized. It's like convincing people to trade goods and services for fancy printed slips of paper. Once it becomes established, that's how societies function.

Hopefully my student loans will be forgiven when I die of old age.

 

[LeeEJ]

... when in fact I'm one of the most humble and ass-kissing sudents there is...

If I did any ass-kissing at all, I don't think I was ever aware of it.. lol

Whenever I butted heads with a professor, I tried to make sure that they knew that they were still the professor, it was still their class, and that we left any issues behind closed doors.

There has to be some sense of structure and order in a teacher-class setting. The kids who are looking for chinks in the professor's armor will jump on anything that gets revealed during a heated discussion with another student, and they'll lose more and more respect for the professor.

It's the same way where I work. Those of us in higher positions have our problems with each other, but we don't let the others below us see it -- for all they know, we stick together. They don't see our arguments & debates.

 

[B_henry miller]

This is actually the very basis of my challenge. Thanks for writing this. The very fact that I'm so experienced in my field means that by default I am sort of butting heads with the teachers, or could be if I didn't take every available opportunity to humble myself and assure them that it's their class.

Not that I pick fights or arguments. But I realize that the slightest indication of indifference or questioning on my part could easily be interpreted as, "Well, he thinks he's better than me because he's had so much experience...." In fact, I've actually had a teacher attack me on this issue. I talked to him after class one day about some correction he made to me, and he attacked me by launching into, "I know you've had a lot of experience in this...." That was a real clue to me. The irony here being that teachers are supposed to help you improve in a subject, but my reward for being good at a subject is that it sometimes ruffles their feathers -- makes them think that I may think I'm better than them -- and I may be graded down because of a perceived arrogance.

That's the irony of it all. The only thing I'm really learning, and ultimately being graded on, is how to appease egos that could be easily threatened.

Whenever I butted heads with a professor, I tried to make sure that they knew that they were still the professor, it was still their class, and that we left any issues behind closed doors.

 

[snoozan]

Okay, I'm going to soften my position here because I had a good long think about this on my way to work today. I'm sorry if I assumed a lot about you, your education, and what you're doing. Where I was coming from was the position of a teacher and employer where I've had a lot of students fresh out of high school where they've been the star art pupil treat me like I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm doing. Not only is it bad for them, it makes me insane as a teacher because I feel like I have so much to offer and it's just plain disrespectful. The worst part is that many of these kids have bad habits or bad technique that they refuse to change, and when I grade them on that, I get a raft of shit for it. The thing is, I was one of those kids, but I had some really good instructors who helped me out of that.

With all that said, I also understand where professors can be completely out of touch with certain things. One in particular was a great photographer and artist, but she was clueless about the commercial world and gave me some really bad advice. I've also had supervisors who are that way, one in particular who to this day infuriates me with how bad a photographer he truly is. I worked for this man for 4 years, and though I did learn a lot about process and business from him, he's truly unappreciative of good photography. He also liked to tell me how useless my degree and art training are, which, like you've said, at the very least opens doors for me later if I decide to teach.

This is actually the thing that I am getting out of the situation too. It's giving me an opportunity I may not have otherwise, a chance to be focused only on this artwork while being surrounded by others who are involved with this artwork.

That's what school was for me-- just sucking up every possible minute of time and ounce of knowledge from others because it's just not the same now that I'm working. I feel like I've lost a lot of creativity in some ways by working for clients and not just myself.

That's part of the problem I'm talking about. So much of it feels like bullshit. I hope you will remember this statement of yours the next time you tell me my attitude sucks.

I do get what you're saying, but honestly, you have to look at it differently to get out what you can. There are a lot of intelligent, caring, and talented people teaching at colleges. I had a really good experience the second time in school because my attitude was different than the first time. That's really all I'm saying.

Here we go again with people assuming things about me. What makes you think I'm not making connections, that I'm squandering resources, that I am not respecting the teachers? If anything, I'm questioning the validity of the whole university/college system. I give my teachers as much respect as any human being deserves. There's a difference between respect and fear. I ass kiss when necessary because I realize that if I don't then my GPA will fall and there goes my grants ... I fear losing the grants.

Okay, I did assume a lot, like you said. I just wonder if you saw it less as ass kissing and more as adult communication that it might feel better for you. On the other hand, there were some students who did yard work for professors and did kiss a ton of ass-- which I really wasn't interested in. There was one professor who had sort of a cult of personality thing going on, and though he was incredibly talented I never really got into the hero worship that some of the students did with him. To be honest, some of my best interactions were with grad students and non-tenure track instructors.

So what you're basically saying is that college is what you make it. Isn't that the way it is with everything in life? If so, then why will society often trust a degreed person over a non-degreed but experienced person? Because society has placed a lot of importance on that "useless piece of paper." College is not what I make it. College is what society has made it, and society has made it something necessary if you want to be taken seriously by most of society.

Agreed, and it shouldn't be like that, IMO. College shouldn't be 13th grade. It shouldn't be something that everyone does immediately after high school. I don't think everyone needs college for the jobs they end up doing. College should be a place where people who are serious about being educated go. I know in my field that I don't need a degree and that most people don't have them. However, I think I really got something out of the four years I spent in school even though it doesn't translate into a dollar amount.

So I don't know. You've made me think a lot, and I hope my initial ranting is at least better explained in this post.

 

[B_henry miller]

Oh. I just remembered something. I've actually heard that teachers don't like older students who have had a lot of life experience in general because there is the perception that they're more likely to question or to know when teachers are wrong. In other words, teachers are more easily threatened by students who are older; they don't like teachers who are peers in terms of experience and life in general (if not in terms of college diplomas). THIS is what I'm dealing with.

 

[snoozan]

This is actually the very basis of my challenge. Thanks for writing this. The very fact that I'm so experienced in my field means that by default I am sort of butting heads with the teachers, or could be if I didn't take every available opportunity to humble myself and assure them that it's their class.

Not that I pick fights or arguments. But I realize that the slightest indication of indifference or questioning on my part could easily be interpreted as, "Well, he thinks he's better than me because he's had so much experience...." In fact, I've actually had a teacher attack me on this issue. I talked to him after class one day about some correction he made to me, and he attacked me by launching into, "I know you've had a lot of experience in this...." That was a real clue to me. The irony here being that teachers are supposed to help you improve in a subject, but my reward for being good at a subject is that it sometimes ruffles their feathers -- makes them think that I may think I'm better than them -- and I may be graded down because of a perceived arrogance.

That's the irony of it all. The only thing I'm really learning, and ultimately being graded on, is how to appease egos that could be easily threatened.

See, this is what gets me ruffled. I've experienced this attitude from students a lot and it's very difficult not to get ruffled from it. On the other hand, I've taught some pros who have been working for 30 years in my field who know a ton more than me about photography in general, and it's so much easier when they let me drive in the areas where I'm the teacher. It's just hard sometimes when you've got people who are very invested in their work to not get into a pissing match. I just wonder if maybe some of your teachers don't have a point, or at least you could open yourself up more to learning from them instead of seeing it as a conflict.

But you're right, it is harder teaching experienced students, sometimes because it is intimidating to the teacher and sometimes because the student wants to be in control. I've seen both. I don't know what it is in your case. I just know that sometimes you have to put your ego aside as and instructor and as a student to really learn something.

 

[LeeEJ]

... -- and I may be graded down because of a perceived arrogance.

But -- are you really? Have you gotten worse grades from professors who have called you arrogant even if you've done quality work?

 

[Guy-jin]

I just wonder if maybe some of your teachers don't have a point, or at least you could open yourself up more to learning from them instead of seeing it as a conflict.

Bingo.

Honestly, a lot of this thread seems like intellectual masturbation where you keep telling everyone you're already so great at this stuff but yet you feel you have to take classes that are well beneath you in order to get a "piece of paper" that will open doors for you.

I'll be blunt: That's bullshit.

If you're such a pro at this, you would have that career already. You are missing something, and there is something you need to learn, otherwise you'd have that career. It's possible that what you need to learn isn't the subject matter of the courses, but how to socially interact with people in your profession, how to create important connections that will help you in your career, and precisely what to do with your life and this profession.

Don't take that as an insult. I believe you when you say you're great at whatever subject it is you're majoring in. But it's obvious to me that you're clearly lacking in some things, because if you weren't, you would already have a solid career in whatever it is.

And I do know this from personal experience: Prior to going to undergraduate school, I had a career in what I went on to major in, but I didn't have the skills I needed to advance beyond a fairly low level position until after I'd earned my degree. It wasn't the lack of a piece of paper that held me back, and that isn't what's holding you back either.

 

[B_henry miller]

Actually, this is the exact issue I've dealt with. Our misunderstanding in this discussion is a perfect illustration of the difficulties I'm having in college.

In fact, early on in the term I saw in the teachers almost a need to defer to me, being almost shy about making corrections. That scared me. I realized early on that this was not good because what it meant was that they were assuming that due to my experience I would be a bit difficult to work with or may not take corrections easily, and what this amounted to was them being a bit intimidated by me and assuming that I would be difficult. I then embarked on a (somewhat theatrical) campaign to demonstrate that I was NOT this way. I think the campaign worked, but the need for it was so counter intuitive. (Imagine people being suspicious of you for being what you are supposed to be: good at what you do.)

The next step in this is a sort of raising the bar of expectations of me, which isn't fair. In other words, "Sally will get an A because given that she's new to this subject she's come a long way. But Henry, he's been doing this for a long time and based on where he's coming from he should be doing better."

Interesting comments about the side jobs, yard work for the teacher and personality cults, that you witnessed.

What we are getting at here is this: grading at many levels is subjective and is based on the teacher's personal opinion of the student. However, what we are taught is that grading -- particularly in college -- is an objective science.

I recall someone earlier saying that what you learn in college is independence. Well, how do you fit the importance of personal impressions of teachers (such as the ones you mentioned), the personal yard work, the personality cult you mentioned? All sounds rather dependent, if you ask me.

It seems that a lot of college is actually the art of learning to appear indepedent all the while becoming very dependent. The art of cultivating an illusion.

Anyway, thanks for listening, and thanks for the insight.

Okay, I'm going to soften my position here because I had a good long think about this on my way to work today. I'm sorry if I assumed a lot about you, your education, and what you're doing. Where I was coming from was the position of a teacher and employer where I've had a lot of students fresh out of high school where they've been the star art pupil treat me like I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm doing. Not only is it bad for them, it makes me insane as a teacher because I feel like I have so much to offer and it's just plain disrespectful. The worst part is that many of these kids have bad habits or bad technique that they refuse to change, and when I grade them on that, I get a raft of shit for it. The thing is, I was one of those kids, but I had some really good instructors who helped me out of that.

 

[B_henry miller]

The only place I've ever been called arrogant is on this forum in this thread, because people (some of whom have since admitted to it) jumped to incorrect assumptions about me.

The key I'm looking for here is understanding the assumptions, understanding why people make them, and doing my best to make sure that they are NOT made about ME.

But -- are you really? Have you gotten worse grades from professors who have called you arrogant even if you've done quality work?

 

[AverageJoe]

You know... if you think your professors are intimidated by you now, based on your knowledge and skill at whatever it is that you do... imagine how they'd feel if you whipped out your huge cock and flopped it on their desk! Probably send some of those professors into early retirement!

By the way here's a quote for ya...

"Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym."
-Jack Black in "School of Rock"

If you're great at what you do, do it! Don't worry what anyone else thinks... including your teachers. Enjoy your time at college. Explore some new things. Meet some interesting people. Create some connections that will stay with you for the rest of your life. It's not all about the classes and the content. It's more about learning to wade throught the beaurocratic nonsense and developing social skills. Before you know it, it'll be over and you'll be on to your next challenge... looking for more answers to questions that cannot be answered. Just have fun.