Can the middle class be saved?

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
Hootie - I manufacture in China. I know exactly what I am talking about. Same regulations, just cheaper to abide by them, until some greedy western fucks try to cut corners in products for their own markets.

Of course, some markets can not afford these standads at the moment, so they don't get them. But that isn't your or my home country.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
So what you are saying is you are exploiting the poor of China to make yourself very wealthy?

I said in a previous post that you can live better on 10% of western wages in China than you can in the West.

China single handedly met the UN global target for the reduction of poverty in the last ten years. No other country met any targets, including yours.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Imports put small companies in the USA out of business.
Yet apparently Germany still has small business. Small but up market, niche market, high tech.

The nations with cheap labor had neither the technology nor the manufacturing capability of producing those goods. US businesses gave it to them.
Like US car companies going to Japan to study advanced assembly techniques? One of the biggest things we sell is knowledge, from the trade in foreign students coming to learn. If you want a primer in whatever it is, go read wikipedia or some other technical website. Buy a book. People abroad are just as clever and capable of adopting technology.They have. We now see the result. We no longer deal with ignorant natives.

People who live in developed nations with highly developed socialism cannot work for extremely low wages. The nations social programs depend on taxation. If the workers are not making large enough salaries, there will not be sufficient funds. They can tax the rich all they want but it is not an eternal flame of money that will not burn out.
Since the rich are apparently receiving the bulk of the nations income and hold the bulk of its wealth, clearly they must pay the bulk of the taxes. Money can only come from where it exists. The two sides are arguing over what is a fair division, but all the indicators say the rich minority are getting richer and the poor majority are getting poorer. This can only mean the balance is currently wrong and the rich must be taxed more.
 

Mensch1351

Cherished Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Posts
1,166
Media
0
Likes
343
Points
303
Location
In the only other State that begins with "K"!
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
We have a new resident in our building who worked on Wall Street. She tells me she has a lot of rich friends -- one of whom calls himself, "A middle class billionaire!"

It seems to me the REAL issue between the really really rich and the shrinking middle class is: How much becomes enough? The Chinese don't come from a capitalist culture. I'm sure whatever wealth they are accumulating in a country that still has reasonably cheap living expenses will go to food, a nice house, a car and better clothes & entertainment. But whether they become "obsessed" with accumulating may take a few more generations.

For those of you who may have "millions" --- just how MUCH becomes enough? When the CEO of Goldman Sachs was awarded a $60 million Christmas bonus (quite frankly I think that's a little ironic!!) how does the guy making minimum wage perceive this? That he "deserves it"?? In my humble estimation -- NO sports figure is worth a $25 million contract. NO Hollywood/TV actor/singer is worth $2 million per "episode"! A person making $50,000 per year would have to work 40 years to accumulate that kind of wealth! Our nation is still trying to figure out who our really valuable contributing members to society are and how much "they" should be "worth." And to round out this post -- I've discovered in my work environment that MONEY certainly doesn't buy "class," OR being a quality human being. There are a lot of really wealthy assholes out there!
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
Plenty of poor assholes too.

In the UK the people would receive more in tax from the CEO getting the bonus than if the company kept the profit. Actually double the amount.

I think these numbers are somewhat difficult for most people to grasp. It is a great question as to how much is enough (haven't we discussed this before?), but regarding high profile bonuses etc, you should remember the context of what percentage of the profits created is given. Are they getting a higher percentage than the Mom and Pop store owners?
 

Bardox

Loved Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Posts
2,234
Media
38
Likes
551
Points
198
Location
U.S.
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
What I've noticed is the middle class is only important when it is time for a political race of some sort. The rest of the year, the middle class is just ignored. There are a hand full in the house and senate that focus on the middle class, but the majority of politicans only care about their party lines. If the middle class is to be protected, that has to change.
 

BiItalianBro

Sexy Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Posts
1,195
Media
0
Likes
93
Points
268
Location
Chicago & Louisville KY
Sexuality
60% Gay, 40% Straight
Gender
Male
Yes...it can...but it will not happen overnight, it will be painful and the power elite will not like it. IMHO it starts with education and our approach to education. In the US..we have droves of young people going into universities...but the skills they are taught are not relevant to the job market. Why? Because the majority of kids coming out of high school are totally unprepared with basic math skills to take on programs like engineering.

The second component is this US mantra that a 4 year BA/BS is the one and only ticket to a comfortable living. Tell that to the barista at Caribou with the Philosophy degree. Two year programs can backfill specialized skills that the modern job market demands. The problem, aside from the negative image of technical training, is a lack of quality public institutions and a proliferation of 'for profit' trade schools. I am all for free markets...but for profit education, like for profit healthcare, are inherently flawed concepts.
 

D_Bob_Crotchitch

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Posts
8,252
Media
0
Likes
108
Points
193
In addition to what the above poster said, people must once again become involved in the lives of their children. Constant extracurricular activities are fun but they don't educate your child. If you have a child, it is your responsibility to make sure your child knows the alphabet, can read, and knows their numbers. It should all be done before they reach kindergarten age. You need to work with them on basic math skills. It would help if you spent time every evening going over their homework with them. Help them study for their exams. It doesn't matter that you are tired, and want to watch tv. You brought the child into the world, and they are your responsibility. My mother did it with all three of us. By the age of nine, I was reading on the adult level. I can think her for that much.
 

houtx48

Cherished Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Posts
6,899
Media
0
Likes
323
Points
208
Gender
Male
Maybe you need to just study a little more HOW we came to have a middle class in this country!!
This is true, start a world war and destroy the world's infrastructure but leave you own pretty much intact. Then live as king of the world for the next fifty years until the world rebuilds while for the most part, you never up grade your infrastructure and ship manufacturing out to be done. the great American middle class was a fluke of war and we will probably never see such prosperity again.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
This is true, start a world war and destroy the world's infrastructure but leave you own pretty much intact. Then live as king of the world for the next fifty years until the world rebuilds while for the most part, you never up grade your infrastructure and ship manufacturing out to be done. the great American middle class was a fluke of war and we will probably never see such prosperity again.
It depends what you mean by prosperity. The current idea of prosperity is that every year we throw everything away and buy new. I'd guess that if you made everything last 2x as long it might cost 50% more, and we would still be quids in. 25% less income needed for the same material standard. As regards energy use, damn sure we can economise on fuel, and the US is one of least efficient users of fuel in the world...so it has the easiest task to save. The ultimate question to ask is why people need to work 50 hours a week to get a certain standard of life. Never mind maintaining standards for the current work input, the question to be addressed is reducing necessary work input for the same standard. At the moment the goal is a high wage, not a high quality of life. The aim of industry is to part you from your money, not to produce high quality goods and the result is inevitably what we see now.
 

Klingsor

Worshipped Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Posts
10,888
Media
4
Likes
11,642
Points
293
Location
Champaign (Illinois, United States)
Sexuality
80% Straight, 20% Gay
Gender
Male
This is true, start a world war and destroy the world's infrastructure but leave you own pretty much intact. Then live as king of the world for the next fifty years until the world rebuilds while for the most part, you never up grade your infrastructure and ship manufacturing out to be done. the great American middle class was a fluke of war and we will probably never see such prosperity again.

"Start" a world war???
 

houtx48

Cherished Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Posts
6,899
Media
0
Likes
323
Points
208
Gender
Male
It depends what you mean by prosperity. The current idea of prosperity is that every year we throw everything away and buy new. I'd guess that if you made everything last 2x as long it might cost 50% more, and we would still be quids in. 25% less income needed for the same material standard. As regards energy use, damn sure we can economise on fuel, and the US is one of least efficient users of fuel in the

I agree with you but for the sake of argument I was using our hell bent massive consumerist trap we have now.
 

Klingsor

Worshipped Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Posts
10,888
Media
4
Likes
11,642
Points
293
Location
Champaign (Illinois, United States)
Sexuality
80% Straight, 20% Gay
Gender
Male
This is true, start a world war and destroy the world's infrastructure but leave you own pretty much intact. Then live as king of the world for the next fifty years until the world rebuilds while for the most part, you never up grade your infrastructure and ship manufacturing out to be done. the great American middle class was a fluke of war and we will probably never see such prosperity again.

"Start" a world war???

You have a better plan to get rid of the worlds manufacturing capabilities? I didn't say it was going to be pretty. There is a small hitch you have to prevent any destruction on our own home ground.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't recoiling in horror at your plan for the future. I was taken aback because I thought you were talking about the *past*, and suggesting that the U.S. had *started* World War II. :eek:

Which would be, you know, kind of a cool theory--but I'd really need to see some documentation for *that* one. :awink:
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
I cant remember if the US was one of the countries which insisted on Germany paying war reparations after WW1 or not. This was probably the cause of WW2.

WW1 was really a German affair, but if the US had stayed out of it probably germany would have won. The US would not have earned loads of money and Germany would have been top dog in the world. Mostly it was German miscalculation which ended up with them fighting both Britain and the US when they had anticiapated only taking on Russia and France. US Supplying ammunition to the allies ensured the war kept going and the ongoing destruction of any and all industrial installations within europe. In principle the US was neutral for most of the war and would therefore have supplied Germany too, but there were difficulties in delivering.