Can we ever understand each other?

madame_zora

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Give up, Chimera. You're exhibiting dinosaur thinking and you just haven't gotten the letter in the mail. No one gives a shit what "evidence" you post, racism is a choice, and those who choose to engage in it are extremely stupid. You continue to fail to gain any momentum, take a hint.
 

steve319

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Originally posted by dolf250+Oct 15 2005, 05:58 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dolf250 &#064; Oct 15 2005, 05:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I do not think that we can ever FULLY understand anybody else and I guess that when there is also a different gender, race, religion or orientation involved there would be a slightly wider gap in our understanding of the individual.[/b]

Sure. I&#39;d agree there. The whole "walk a mile in my shoes" thing in full effect. But life can throw us a curve now and then.

I don&#39;t know about you guys. but I&#39;m forever being surprised at the little intersections of understanding and shared experience that I run into with people from diverse cultural and ethnic backgrounds, genders, orientations, etc. One look at my circle of friends tells me that we don&#39;t have to share identical circumstances in order to find value in one another. (And that&#39;s even more true with my circle of friends here at LPSG, actually.)

I do think it boils down to a willingness and capacity to make the effort. Barring some sort of insurmountable mental illness, I think we all can try to attain that mixture of understanding/tolerance/respect that we&#39;re discussing. Even those indoctrinated to hate or fear a particular category of humanity can overcome that through effort and desire (I&#39;ve seen it).

<!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora
@Oct 16 2005, 06:59 PM
...I just hold it as insane that we should promote it rather than trying to cure it. [/quote]
Just thought that kernel of wisdom was worth repeating. ;)
 

naughty

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Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Oct 16 2005, 09:39 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Oct 16 2005, 09:39 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-naughty@Oct 16 2005, 02:55 PM
I also dont think it is only in the case of black women that you see this happen... [but] in people of any race, creed, nationality or socio economic group. 
[post=352364]Quoted post[/post]​
LOL, yes, the revulsion to miscegenation is universal. ;)
[post=352387]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]


Chimera,

Quite often you see individuals using the race, age ,size, status, education, etc. as an excuse not to look at flaws in a relationship that unravels. Because so much has been the emphasis on black women being keepers of the "Flame", often to women who has felt otherwise disenfranchised in so many ways this is taken as a symbol of ultimate betrayal and it no longer is a mere break up but a political statement. Yes, Jana was very right it is so much about fear. I think we all have to work on that.

Naughty
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Oct 16 2005, 08:28 PM
Fear is not a choice, nor its area of manifestation; thus racism is not.
[post=352426]Quoted post[/post]​
Flawed logic, my friend. Racism is based upon ignorance, not fear. Ignorance IS a choice. Homophobia is ignorance-based, also, not fear-based. Bigoted people CHOOSE ignorance of the actualities of the groups that they hate. And even at that, one most often can make a conscious choice to overcome many "fears" - fear of heights, fear of snakes, fear of flying, can all be overcome if one chooses to work at it. Dismissing an individual because of skin color is a result of ignorance of the fact that individuals are exactly that - individuals; they should be evaluated on their own merits, not preconceived notions about who they are because of their race.
 

madame_zora

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Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Oct 17 2005, 12:28 AM
Fear is not a choice, nor its area of manifestation; thus racism is not.
[post=352426]Quoted post[/post]​


Wow, I guess your saying that makes it true, right?

Of course fear is a choice&#33; Behavior is a choice, just as is inaction. "Feelings" aren&#39;t real things. You can&#39;t map dna for socially held beliefs, because they would have to be universal rather than societal, which they are not.

Anyway, stay in your little hole clutching your gun and swearing that YOU can&#39;t do anything about being a racist, I&#39;m sure you&#39;re right. I can do better.
 

steve319

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Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Oct 16 2005, 08:28 PM
You will never see it as anything more than "indoctrination";
Now, see, I&#39;m not going to try to place limits on your ability to grow. I have faith that someday there are things you WILL come to see.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by naughty
Now, you know I dont want to laugh at this comment&#33; LOL&#33; Unfortunately, I have seen this happen and I think that there is so much that goes into why this happens that we are not going to discuss on this board. I also dont think it is only in the case of black women that you see this happen. Borderline personality disorder as well as limerance can bring this out in people of any race, creed, nationality or socio economic group. When someone is abandoned for something they can not control it doesnt tend to bring out their best qualities.

Naughty
A black woman will be hurt regardless, but it&#39;s an extra sting with them if they are left for a white woman. From that day on they have sworn vengeance on your ass beyond normal, practical measures. I mean from that point on she considers herself a character in the book of African American history, she sees herself like Sojourner Truth or Harriet Tubman and she thinks it&#39;s an indictment on the entire race no matter how "rational" the reasons for the man being involved with a "more compatible" woman who happens to be white. They do a good job of masking it, but the contempt black women have for white women behind closed doors is immense.
 

Dorset

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Originally posted by madame_zora+Oct 17 2005, 03:41 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Oct 17 2005, 03:41 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ChimeraTX@Oct 17 2005, 12:28 AM
Fear is not a choice, nor its area of manifestation; thus racism is not. 
[post=352426]Quoted post[/post]​


Wow, I guess your saying that makes it true, right?

Of course fear is a choice&#33; Behavior is a choice, just as is inaction. "Feelings" aren&#39;t real things. You can&#39;t map dna for socially held beliefs, because they would have to be universal rather than societal, which they are not.

Anyway, stay in your little hole clutching your gun and swearing that YOU can&#39;t do anything about being a racist, I&#39;m sure you&#39;re right. I can do better.
[post=352455]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
How come I&#39;m scared of spiders then? I sure as hell don&#39;t choose to be&#33;
Or vertigo sufferers? Maybe you should try telling them to snap out of it and send them up a ladder

A genuine fear is not chosen, I think what you&#39;re refering to is an intolerance

Most racists are intolerant of other races which is of course a choice
 

madame_zora

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Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 17 2005, 03:05 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 17 2005, 03:05 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by madame_zora@Oct 17 2005, 03:41 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-ChimeraTX
@Oct 17 2005, 12:28 AM
Fear is not a choice, nor its area of manifestation; thus racism is not.
[post=352426]Quoted post[/post]​



Wow, I guess your saying that makes it true, right?

Of course fear is a choice&#33; Behavior is a choice, just as is inaction. "Feelings" aren&#39;t real things. You can&#39;t map dna for socially held beliefs, because they would have to be universal rather than societal, which they are not.

Anyway, stay in your little hole clutching your gun and swearing that YOU can&#39;t do anything about being a racist, I&#39;m sure you&#39;re right. I can do better.
[post=352455]Quoted post[/post]​
How come I&#39;m scared of spiders then? I sure as hell don&#39;t choose to be&#33;
Or vertigo sufferers? Maybe you should try telling them to snap out of it and send them up a ladder

A genuine fear is not chosen, I think what you&#39;re refering to is an intolerance

Most racists are intolerant of other races which is of course a choice
[post=352565]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

It&#39;s just me, I have this funny little thing about not wanting to be controlled by my own stupidity so I probably expect too much of others as well. I&#39;m naturally afraid of snakes but I didn&#39;t want my daughter to be so we went around them and handled them a few times. I&#39;m afraid of heights, so I took flying lessons and learned to "just get over it". I grew up in a rural community with a fairly red-neck step father so I moved to the city when I was old enough and lived in integrated neighborhoods. I have as many "isms" as the next guy, if I hold myself accountable for dealing with mine, I see no reason why anyone else can&#39;t.

Of course we CAN, it&#39;s just a matter of if it&#39;s important enough for us to try.
 

Dorset

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Fair enough, most fears are cureable so in that way we choose to keep them

With my fear of spiders I&#39;ve just never thought of it as enough of a problem to justify going to therapy to cure it

I sense we might be going off topic a bit here :happy:
 

B_hungrick

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I appreciate this discussion. I look at understanding each other as something more than a decision. I think it&#39;s something that we have to change in ourselves. I like the teachings of the Buddha, that ignorance is just the state we find ourselves in, and that to see through our ignorance (or stupidity) is our spiritual practice. So unless we CHANGE ourselves, our behavior will never change.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Oct 17 2005, 09:00 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Oct 17 2005, 09:00 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>  No, ignorance is not a "choice"; in terms of Webster&#39;s definition(¹). Perhaps you confuse the term "ignorance" with "stupidity", or perhaps you are being "willfully-ignorant"; thus not "ignorant", but "stupid". ;)
[post=352706]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b]

Thank you for calling me stupid. As I read the definitions for "ignorant" and "stupid", I keep coming up with ignorance being a lack of knowledge, and stupidity being lack of intelligence. Perhaps you are the one who confused the two terms. Unless I am mistaken, one CAN remedy a lack of knowledge, but one CANNOT remedy a lack of intelligence.
Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Oct 17 2005, 09:00 PM
This same rationale could be, and is, applied to less controversial situations without objection.  Would you walk on sharp rocks because "...they should be evaluated on their own merits; not preconceived notions..."?  The answer is almost without exception "no".
[post=352706]Quoted post[/post]​
Another flawed analogy. After the first time I stepped on a sharp rock and cut my foot, experience (read: knowledge) tells me I should not walk on sharp rocks. The same goes for touching hot objects. When a child is in his formative (read: learning (read: gaining knowledge (read: reducing ignorance))) years, his parents tell him something is "hot, don&#39;t touch&#33;" But until the child eliminates his ignorance of what "hot" means, (read: gains knowledge) by touching a hot object and burning his hand, it means nothing. Racism (read: ignorance of the characteristics of the individuals in favor of preconceived ideas) CAN be overcome, if the racist is willing (won&#39;t happen) to realize that a person is not a group, a person is an individual who may or may not have similarities of personality to others who share physical characteristics.
Originally posted by ChimeraTX@Oct 17 2005, 09:00 PM
What seperates a rock from a human? Life?  The substitution of "...walk on sharp rocks..." with "...pet a rabid dog..." will assuredly produce the same answer.  There are far less rational criteria for preconception than racial affiliation.
[post=352706]Quoted post[/post]​
Going back to the definitions, a person who lacks knowledge of rabies might pet a rabid dog, and yet not be stupid. However, a person who has knowledge of rabies, and pets him anyway, is stupid. I once knew a person from Texas who was stupid. Do I assume that all Texans are stupid? Of course not. When I was teaching, there was a girl in the special education class that was operating on an IQ of around 60. She neede some assistance even to brush her teeth. She had red hair. Do I assume that all girls with red hair are mentally retarded? No, of course not. If you make analogies, they should be logical, and pertinent. Water boiling on a stovetop will ALWAYS burn you if you stick your hand in it. Red-haired girls may or may not be mentally retarded. You cannot make an analogy of those two situations.
<!--QuoteBegin-ChimeraTX
@Oct 17 2005, 09:00 PM
"Antiracism" seeks the denial of racial tendencies, to an often gross and horrific extent, and is thus irrational. "Willful ignorance": "stupidity"? 

A self-righteous stupid person is, as I assume you are aware, no less stupid than any other in whom stupidity is manifest.  The reasons for "antiracism" are numerous, and can not be discussed without serious divergence from stated thread topic.

Also, inasmuch as racism is inflicted by pathological fear as well as ignorance and experience, it is incurable.
[post=352706]Quoted post[/post]​
[/quote]
For the record, I did not bring racism into the discussion, we always reserve that right for you. I&#39;m not really sure about your argument that racism is inflicted by pathological fear (of course, the very word pathological should make anyone with a modicum of intelligence skeptical of your claim). Pathological or irrational fears CAN be cured by exposure therapy (do a google search on that one). Ignorance can also be cured, unless the ignorant one is incapable of gaining knowledge. And also for the record, racism is not inflicted, it is embraced.
 

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Just to throw a spanner in the works here

I know people who have become more racist as their knowledge of other races has increased, in these cases racism can&#39;t be caused by ignorance as they have had high exposure to other races but have grown to dislike them as they have learnt more about them

What if these people aren&#39;t crazy or stupid? What if they just don&#39;t like certain races?
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by Dorset
Just to throw a spanner in the works here

I know people who have become more racist as their knowledge of other races has increased, in these cases racism can&#39;t be caused by ignorance as they have had high exposure to other races but have grown to dislike them as they have learnt more about them

What if these people aren&#39;t crazy or stupid? What if they just don&#39;t like certain races?

You can not like black people in general and still not be racist. If you let your dislike for the majority of blacks that you know affect your judgement of any blacks you meet in the future, then you&#39;re racist. And it&#39;s pretty difficult for that not to happen.

Simlarly, if you don&#39;t like the majority of plates of spaghetti you&#39;ve had in your life, you could probably rightly say you don&#39;t like spaghetti in general. That doesn&#39;t mean you&#39;ll say, "I know I&#39;m not going to like this plate of spaghetti" when served a meal. But if you do, you&#39;re foodist.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by Dorset@Oct 18 2005, 12:13 PM
Just to throw a spanner in the works here

I know people who have become more racist as their knowledge of other races has increased, in these cases racism can&#39;t be caused by ignorance as they have had high exposure to other races but have grown to dislike them as they have learnt more about them

What if these people aren&#39;t crazy or stupid? What if they just don&#39;t like certain races?
[post=352905]Quoted post[/post]​
Knowledge of other races, or of other cultures? There is a difference. There are certain aspects of most religions that I find abhorrant; one aspect of one religion does not necessarily hold true for all religions. And even at that, not all adhererants of one religion hold all the same beliefs. It still all boils down to individuals, and each individual&#39;s ideas of ethics and morals. If you work in a convenience store, and the last 4 robbers there had shaved heads, it would be a simplistic and erroneous leap to thenceforth assume that anyone with a shaved head is by his nature a robber.
 

Matthew

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Reading through this thread has brought me to the conclusion that we can never understand each other. Not even a little.
 

Dorset

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Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 18 2005, 05:35 PM
If you work in a convenience store, and the last 4 robbers there had shaved heads, it would be a simplistic and erroneous leap to thenceforth assume that anyone with a shaved head is by his nature a robber.
[post=352921]Quoted post[/post]​

You&#39;re right but it&#39;s also true that you can reasonably assume that you are far more likely that you&#39;ll be robbed by men with shaved heads than those without.
Would it be unreasonably predjudiced for this man to then monitor the actions of shaved headed men more closely in future or would it be silly for he to ignore the information that he now holds?

For example, my nan has been mugged 9 times in her life, 8 of those were by groups of black men. If you had to bet your life savings on the colour of her next attacker what would it be?

I don&#39;t assume every black man is a mugger but I know that I&#39;m far more likely to be attacked by a black man than a white man
Even the London chief of Police said this a few years back. He was widely critisized for it but he pointed out that over 90% of London crime is commited by 2% of the London population (black 16-25 year olds)
 

B_HappyHammer1977

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Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 19 2005, 10:35 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 19 2005, 10:35 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DC_DEEP@Oct 18 2005, 05:35 PM
If you work in a convenience store, and the last 4 robbers there had shaved heads, it would be a simplistic and erroneous leap to thenceforth assume that anyone with a shaved head is by his nature a robber.
[post=352921]Quoted post[/post]​

You&#39;re right but it&#39;s also true that you can reasonably assume that you are far more likely that you&#39;ll be robbed by men with shaved heads than those without.
Would it be unreasonably predjudiced for this man to then monitor the actions of shaved headed men more closely in future or would it be silly for he to ignore the information that he now holds?

For example, my nan has been mugged 9 times in her life, 8 of those were by groups of black men. If you had to bet your life savings on the colour of her next attacker what would it be?

I don&#39;t assume every black man is a mugger but I know that I&#39;m far more likely to be attacked by a black man than a white man
Even the London chief of Police said this a few years back. He was widely critisized for it but he pointed out that over 90% of London crime is commited by 2% of the London population (black 16-25 year olds)
[post=353116]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

I think you already know that this has nothing to do with race and more to do with poverty...
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 19 2005, 07:40 AM
I think you already know that this has nothing to do with race and more to do with poverty...
[post=353125]Quoted post[/post]​
Hah, Hammer, you beat me to it. It is very easy to draw non sequitur conclusions from any two events.

I shaved this morning. The subway was running very late. Therefore, if I stop shaving, the subway will run on time.

Wrong conclusions are also drawn by trying to apply probability where the variables are completely random: I have tossed a coin 9 times, and each time it came up "heads." If I toss it a 10th time, what are the odds of coming up "heads" again? It&#39;s still 50/50, regardless of the previous results. I&#39;m guessing that the racial makeup and general degree of poverty in the neighborhood would determine the odds of nan&#39;s next mugger being of a particular race.

Again, understanding others is what you make of it.