Can we ever understand each other?

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP+Oct 19 2005, 01:55 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_DEEP &#064; Oct 19 2005, 01:55 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977@Oct 19 2005, 07:40 AM
I think you already know that this has nothing to do with race and more to do with poverty...

[post=353125]Quoted post[/post]​

Hah, Hammer, you beat me to it. It is very easy to draw non sequitur conclusions from any two events.

I shaved this morning. The subway was running very late. Therefore, if I stop shaving, the subway will run on time.

Wrong conclusions are also drawn by trying to apply probability where the variables are completely random: I have tossed a coin 9 times, and each time it came up "heads." If I toss it a 10th time, what are the odds of coming up "heads" again? It&#39;s still 50/50, regardless of the previous results. I&#39;m guessing that the racial makeup and general degree of poverty in the neighborhood would determine the odds of nan&#39;s next mugger being of a particular race.

Again, understanding others is what you make of it.

[post=353133]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Absolutely.
Circumstances can give reasons, but not excuses.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

A very valid point, indeed.

But I feel that by nature, we love to find patterns in things. It&#39;s hard to believe that people are completely random&#33;

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP+Oct 19 2005, 12:55 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_DEEP &#064; Oct 19 2005, 12:55 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977@Oct 19 2005, 07:40 AM
I think you already know that this has nothing to do with race and more to do with poverty...

[post=353125]Quoted post[/post]​

Hah, Hammer, you beat me to it. It is very easy to draw non sequitur conclusions from any two events.

I shaved this morning. The subway was running very late. Therefore, if I stop shaving, the subway will run on time.

Wrong conclusions are also drawn by trying to apply probability where the variables are completely random: I have tossed a coin 9 times, and each time it came up "heads." If I toss it a 10th time, what are the odds of coming up "heads" again? It&#39;s still 50/50, regardless of the previous results. I&#39;m guessing that the racial makeup and general degree of poverty in the neighborhood would determine the odds of nan&#39;s next mugger being of a particular race.

Again, understanding others is what you make of it.

[post=353133]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
What you&#39;re saying here is nothing like my example, you can&#39;t compaire the result of a coin toss to the actions of people. Your example only works if all our actions are random. Can you try thinking a little bit more about your next example to make sure it&#39;s relevent

Where my nan lives it&#39;s propably about 90% white yet the crime is commited by the black.

Poverty may well pay a part in this but the white kids from any local estates are just as poor as the black so why are those white kids not commiting as many crimes?

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 19 2005, 03:29 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 19 2005, 03:29 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 19 2005, 12:55 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977

@Oct 19 2005, 07:40 AM
I think you already know that this has nothing to do with race and more to do with poverty...

[post=353125]Quoted post[/post]​

Hah, Hammer, you beat me to it. It is very easy to draw non sequitur conclusions from any two events.

I shaved this morning. The subway was running very late. Therefore, if I stop shaving, the subway will run on time.

Wrong conclusions are also drawn by trying to apply probability where the variables are completely random: I have tossed a coin 9 times, and each time it came up "heads." If I toss it a 10th time, what are the odds of coming up "heads" again? It&#39;s still 50/50, regardless of the previous results. I&#39;m guessing that the racial makeup and general degree of poverty in the neighborhood would determine the odds of nan&#39;s next mugger being of a particular race.

Again, understanding others is what you make of it.

[post=353133]Quoted post[/post]​

What you&#39;re saying here is nothing like my example, you can&#39;t compaire the result of a coin toss to the actions of people. Your example only works if all our actions are random. Can you try thinking a little bit more about your next example to make sure it&#39;s relevent

Where my nan lives it&#39;s propably about 90% white yet the crime is commited by the black.

Poverty may well pay a part in this but the white kids from any local estates are just as poor as the black so why are those white kids not commiting as many crimes?

[post=353148]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


I don&#39;t know where you live, but crime over here is committed in equal measures (percentage-wise) Like your nans&#39; locale, my town has a small percentage of &#39;ethnic minorities&#39; (god I hate political correctness&#33 Indeed, there are alot more Indian families living in my area than black. And maybe that is the point; Asians&#39; have a far more family orientated way of living than &#39;the westerns&#39; and punishment comes in the form of &#39;shame on the family&#39;

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

[/quote]


Poverty may well pay a part in this but the white kids from any local estates are just as poor as the black so why are those white kids not commiting as many crimes?

[post=353148]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]




Plus - I&#39;m willing to bet that there is much more crime committed by the white kids on her estate, it&#39;s a certain level of rascism that blames all of it on blacks.

Why is it when you get mugged by four white kids, you say "I got mugged by four kids." But when you get mugged my four black kids, you say "I got mugged by four black kids" (Or even worse " I got mugged by four fucking niggers")

 

[DC_DEEP]

Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 19 2005, 10:29 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 19 2005, 10:29 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 19 2005, 12:55 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977

@Oct 19 2005, 07:40 AM
I think you already know that this has nothing to do with race and more to do with poverty...

[post=353125]Quoted post[/post]​

Hah, Hammer, you beat me to it. It is very easy to draw non sequitur conclusions from any two events.

I shaved this morning. The subway was running very late. Therefore, if I stop shaving, the subway will run on time.

Wrong conclusions are also drawn by trying to apply probability where the variables are completely random: I have tossed a coin 9 times, and each time it came up "heads." If I toss it a 10th time, what are the odds of coming up "heads" again? It&#39;s still 50/50, regardless of the previous results. I&#39;m guessing that the racial makeup and general degree of poverty in the neighborhood would determine the odds of nan&#39;s next mugger being of a particular race.

Again, understanding others is what you make of it.

[post=353133]Quoted post[/post]​

What you&#39;re saying here is nothing like my example, you can&#39;t compaire the result of a coin toss to the actions of people. Your example only works if all our actions are random. Can you try thinking a little bit more about your next example to make sure it&#39;s relevent

Where my nan lives it&#39;s propably about 90% white yet the crime is commited by the black.

Poverty may well pay a part in this but the white kids from any local estates are just as poor as the black so why are those white kids not commiting as many crimes?

[post=353148]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
If my example is not relevant, and you can&#39;t predict a coin toss but you CAN predict who your nan&#39;s next mugger will be, why not arrest him and put him away BEFORE he mugs her? If she is on the street in a bad neighborhood at night, the only certainty of her mugger being of a particular race is that exactly zero percent of the muggers in that neighborhood are of another race. I find it difficult to believe that she is in a 90% white area, and crimes in that area are ONLY committed by blacks. I just find it a bit of a stretch.

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 19 2005, 03:48 PM
If my example is not relevant, and you can&#39;t predict a coin toss but you CAN predict who your nan&#39;s next mugger will be, why not arrest him and put him away BEFORE he mugs her? If she is on the street in a bad neighborhood at night, the only certainty of her mugger being of a particular race is that exactly zero percent of the muggers in that neighborhood are of another race. I find it difficult to believe that she is in a 90% white area, and crimes in that area are ONLY committed by blacks. I just find it a bit of a stretch.

[post=353167]Quoted post[/post]​

Again you don&#39;t seem to understand. I didn&#39;t say that you can predicit the culprit but you can predict their colour quite accurately

I&#39;ll try and get the official figures for you

p.s. You don&#39;t always need to quote an entire conversation, just the part you are replying to, it makes the topic hard to read

 

[Dorset]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2099-1781852,00.html

Here it says that Black people make up 10% of the London population but are responsible for 70% of shootings

Is this because they are poor too :nopity:

 

[Dorset]

This is taken from Blink.org.uk - a Black youth website

This puts my view across better - I don&#39;t think all black people are criminals but you can&#39;t avoid the obvious facts, a black man in London is far more likely to be a criminal than a white man.

This site shows the black community accepting the problem and now trying to act on it rather than taking the PC bullshit view that it has nothing to do with colour just because you&#39;re afraid that someone might call you racist

I am not racist but no doubt I&#39;ll be branded as such on here for stating what the situation really is

In London, where the black population is concentrated, about 6 out of ten people arrested for robbery is black. But taking a broader picture, just over one in four people arrested for robbery in England and Wales - 28 percent - is of African Caribbean origin. The British Crime Survey puts the figure a bit higher - at 31 percent. Black people only make up about 2 percent of the population, so yes, the robbery arrest rate is hugely disproportionate and it is not a problem that the black community can afford to ignore. But,

You can&#39;t just blame black kids for street robbery because only a minority of robbers are black.

Of course individual robbers - white, black, brown or pink - must take responsibility for their actions. But, while people make choices, they do so in circumstances that are not of their own making. Remember also, children are not as culpable as adults because they are immature, dependent and vulnerable, even if they are also at times are troubled and causing trouble for other people.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Umm...you&#39;ve inadvertantly backed up my statement by quoting that&#33;

It&#39;s a much broader picture is what I&#39;m trying to say. I simply don&#39;t have time to list ALL the problems, but I&#39;ll give it a quick stab (no pun intended)

poverty
racism
unequal rights
poor aspirations projected upon young blacks
the apparent &#39;need&#39; for immigrating families to head to the cities
peer pressure

.... the list goes on....

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

Originally posted by Dorset
"Of course individual robbers - white, black, brown or pink - must take responsibility for their actions."

You know who are liars? Those people when the subject is about race and they say this, you&#39;ve probably heard it a lot in your life:

"I don&#39;t care if they&#39;re black, white, brown, red, yellow, or green..."

At this point, you know you have a goddamn liar in your midst. Because if some green nigga came up to me, I&#39;m sorry, but to me, I don&#39;t know, that seems like an appropriate time to discriminate. Yeah, I&#39;ll say it, I&#39;m bigoted against green people. I hate green people.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 19 2005, 12:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 19 2005, 12:09 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Again you don&#39;t seem to understand. I didn&#39;t say that you can predicit the culprit but you can predict their colour quite accurately

p.s. You don&#39;t always need to quote an entire conversation, just the part you are replying to, it makes the topic hard to read

[post=353172]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

Again, I do understand what you are trying to say, but you are saying it in the wrong way. I do know how to use the quote tags, I quote as I do for clarity.

Originally posted by Dorset@Oct 19 2005, 12:14 PM
Here it says that Black people make up 10% of the London population but are responsible for 70% of shootings

[post=353173]Quoted post[/post]​

Alright, granted. However:
<!--QuoteBegin-Dorset@Oct 19 2005, 12:29 PM
I don&#39;t think all black people are criminals but you can&#39;t avoid the obvious facts, a black man in London is far more likely to be a criminal than a white man.

I am not racist but no doubt I&#39;ll be branded as such on here for stating what the situation really is

In London, where the black population is concentrated, about 6 out of ten people arrested for robbery is black. But taking a broader picture, just over one in four people arrested for robbery in England and Wales - 28 percent - is of African Caribbean origin. The British Crime Survey puts the figure a bit higher - at 31 percent. Black people only make up about 2 percent of the population, so yes, the robbery arrest rate is hugely disproportionate and it is not a problem that the black community can afford to ignore. But,

You can&#39;t just blame black kids for street robbery because only a minority of robbers are black.

Of course individual robbers - white, black, brown or pink - must take responsibility for their actions. But, while people make choices, they do so in circumstances that are not of their own making. Remember also, children are not as culpable as adults because they are immature, dependent and vulnerable, even if they are also at times are troubled and causing trouble for other people.

[post=353177]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]
Saying a black man is more likely to be a criminal than a white man is NOT the same as saying that a criminal is more likely to be black than white. They sound similar, but just simply do not mean the same thing.

I won&#39;t go into Statistics & Probability 101, there just is not space, nor is this the appropriate place for it. In one of the articles you cited, the statistics presented are "10% of the population is black, but 70% of the shootings are black on black." Later in the article, it quotes the same statistics, but leaves out the "black on black" part. What does that do to the "black on white" or "white on white" statistics? Neither does the article address the issue of repeat offenders. If in a given sample, five white men commit one robbery each, and one black man commits five robberies, the black man is only 20% of the criminals, but committed 50% of total crimes. All I am saying is you have to be very careful about how you present numbers and statistics, and what conclusions you draw from them.

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 19 2005, 06:56 PM
Saying a black man is more likely to be a criminal than a white man is NOT the same as saying that a criminal is more likely to be black than white.  They sound similar, but just simply do not mean the same thing.

[post=353200]Quoted post[/post]​

OK, where to start with this one

You take 100 white people and 100 black

If there are 20 criminals in the group and 12 of them are black and 8 white then it is exactly the same thing as saying that a black member of the group is more likely to be a criminal as there are 88 non criminal black and 92 non criminal white

In real life the pool of black people is smaller but the proportion of violent criminals is far higher

Don&#39;t get me wrong - I know there are many factors with crime rates including education and poverty which effect the black community quite badly but it is foolish to ignore an obvious abnormality in the crime rates

There is nothing to say that a black baby is more likely to grow up to be a criminal so something is obviously wrong culturally

As for teaching me statistics 101, I think you&#39;re kidding yourself, I know what I&#39;m doing, I chose 2 articles out of thousands, they both show different things but highlight a trend I wanted to illustrate. They are not meant to be 100% conclusive evidence that can&#39;t ever be disputed by anyone ever&#33;&#33;

 

[Dorset]

Why is it when you get mugged by four white kids, you say "I got mugged by four kids." But when you get mugged my four black kids, you say "I got mugged by four black kids" (Or even worse " I got mugged by four fucking niggers")

[post=353156]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]
Excuse me but I don&#39;t remember knowing you
Why the hell do you think you know me well enough to think I would call black kids &#39;niggers&#39;

This is just your typical narrow minded view - All I&#39;ve done is highlight a very real problem and I get branded as racist&#33; WTF?

If you had bothered to read a newspaper over the last 5 years you will have noticed that black politicians, celebs, sports stars etc.. have been leading campaigns targeting black gang culture

These are people who have the strength of character to stand up and say &#39;OK, there is a problem within our community, lets sort it out&#39;
This is the only way things will change

People like you who brand anyone with a facist label if they dare to be honest put racial equality back decades

You might want to read this, a bit more to back my view of political correctness blocking the real issues to be addressed

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,...1491679,00.html

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Why is it when you get mugged by four white kids, you say "I got mugged by four kids." But when you get mugged my four black kids, you say "I got mugged by four black kids" (Or even worse " I got mugged by four fucking niggers")

[post=353156]Quoted post[/post]​

Excuse me but I don&#39;t remember knowing you
Why the hell do you think you know me well enough to think I would call black kids &#39;niggers&#39;

This is just your typical narrow minded view - All I&#39;ve done is highlight a very real problem and I get branded as racist&#33; WTF?

If you had bothered to read a newspaper over the last 5 years you will have noticed that black politicians, celebs, sports stars etc.. have been leading campaigns targeting black gang culture

These are people who have the strength of character to stand up and say &#39;OK, there is a problem within our community, lets sort it out&#39;
This is the only way things will change

People like you who brand anyone with a facist label if they dare to be honest put racial equality back decades

You might want to read this, a bit more to back my view of political correctness blocking the real issues to be addressed

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,...1491679,00.html

[post=353408]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]

In simple terms what I&#39;m trying to say is that it has nothing to do with the colour of their skin. Thats it.
(btw, i wasn&#39;t calling you a racist, it was a &#39;you&#39; as in people &#39;you&#39

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 20 2005, 10:03 AM
(btw, i wasn&#39;t calling you a racist, it was a &#39;you&#39; as in people &#39;you&#39

[post=353424]Quoted post[/post]​

OK, thanks for clarifying that

I have not been trying to prove that Black people are more likely to be criminally minded from birth but there must be a reason why there is such a high percentage of black criminals. If you read the article from &#39;The Times&#39; (very reputable source) it shows that the poverty and eductation arguement isn&#39;t actually that strong

Are there any black men on here who have an opinion on this?

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Ok, best way to find out these answers Dorset, is to spend a week in the East End. Talk to the locals. Eastenders it aint&#33;

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 20 2005, 10:54 AM
Ok, best way to find out these answers Dorset, is to spend a week in the East End. Talk to the locals. Eastenders it aint&#33;

[post=353437]Quoted post[/post]​

I can imagine, I grew up in Bromley and Peckham
Peckham is a real advert that racial integration doesn&#39;t work. I didn&#39;t realise that 2 nations could fight so much as the Ghanaian&#39;s and Nigerian&#39;s for no apparent reason. I hope they&#39;re not at the world cup together&#33;

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 20 2005, 12:18 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 20 2005, 12:18 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977@Oct 20 2005, 10:54 AM
Ok, best way to find out these answers Dorset, is to spend a week in the East End. Talk to the locals. Eastenders it aint&#33;

[post=353437]Quoted post[/post]​

I can imagine, I grew up in Bromley and Peckham
Peckham is a real advert that racial integration doesn&#39;t work. I didn&#39;t realise that 2 nations could fight so much as the Ghanaian&#39;s and Nigerian&#39;s for no apparent reason. I hope they&#39;re not at the world cup together&#33;

[post=353440]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Absolutley&#33; White people don&#39;t see the xenophobia that goes on between immigrants. Most African nations hate Nigerians. And many African nations hate each other. Europe just thinks of Africa as Africa. But it&#39;s full of more diversity than Europe and America put together.
Put it this way, the French and English hate each other. The Dutch and Germans hate each other. We don&#39;t like to be pigeon-holed together with other European nations. (I don&#39;t consider myself Eupoean&#33; I&#39;m English goddamit&#33 The same with Africa nations. Just because you&#39;ve emigrated to another country, you don&#39;t lose your national identity.

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

Originally posted by Dorset
I have not been trying to prove that Black people are more likely to be criminally minded from birth but there must be a reason why there is such a high percentage of black criminals.

There is no conclusive evidence either way. A lot of possibly interesting and enlightening scientific studies are prevented due to lobbies, studies on race and sex differences in particular.

An independent scientist wouldn&#39;t be tainted by any ideology or agenda but finding the truth, but people such as Madame Zora or JonB would have a hard time believing this was true, unless the results came back inconclusive or showing no difference. I think the problem would lie not in actually finding differences (if that was the case), but in using that data to impose legislation that would be on the face of it differential to individuals, based on aggregate findings. That is morally questionably, not acknowledging differences if they do in fact exist. Of course, we all know the reason why most people are hesitant to even conduct or support these sorts of experiments.

the poverty and eductation arguement isn&#39;t actually that strong

All too true.