Can You Believe This?

[Pappy]

Can you believe this crap??

Bushies Again

 

[lacsap1]

Yes,

Freedom, democracy and seperation of state and church, NOT !!!

 

[steve319]

I'm afraid I can. It's truly sad, but this sort of thing isn't as rare as we'd all like to believe--at least it isn't rare around here.

I've seen or heard about local churches in our town of 2,000 asking members to leave over a number of personal issues over the years, including:

* pregnancy outside marriage
* cohabitation outside marriage (AKA "living in sin")
* divorce
* having an Al Gore bumper sticker on the car
* marrying a black man (before moving here) and having a biracial baby
* volunteering to work for the local Democratic Party (such as it is)
* wearing the wrong clothing to church
* allowing children to celebrate Halloween
* having a daughter who is dating a Latino boy

Yes, my friends, these are only some of the perks of small town life! Did I mention that young, gay teens move out of the area as soon as they can catch a ride, literally in fear of their lives?

*resisting temptation to say you guys are spoiled *

I must admit, though, that most of these oustings have been done through more savvy private meetings or cutting conversations rather than through official "voting" by the church body, but the fact that this is happening at all is horrifying.

And these aren't necessarily just the fringe churches here--these include more standard, affiliated congregations (the biracial issue happened at the Methodist church, for example).

Worst of all, after years of seeing this type of discrimination and hate fade out (out of shame?), I'm seeing these incidents enjoy a major resurgence, and that terrifies and depresses me. What happened to our social progress?

As much as I vehemently disagree with our country's current leadership, I'm not one to attack others for their political beliefs or voting record. Having said that, though, I certainly attribute this growing boldness by the radical right to the opportunistic (and cynical) courting of this demographic by the Bush campaign and the success of Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ." These groups feel validated and more powerful now.

Want to feel even more nauseous?

Brace yourself....the pastor at my mother's church tearfully declared from the pulpit last fall (as the election was approaching) that everyone who truly had faith in God should vote to reelect Bush, that his initial election in 2000 had restored his (the pastor's) faith in America, and that for the past four years he had felt that....ready?..."we finally have Jesus in the White House." :grr:

 

[yaoifun]

Well well...What else is new >.>

 

[jay_too]

I wonder how much of this religious ZEAL is one-up-manship? Ya know the holier than thou crap. I hope that this church loses its tax exempt status and gets annexed to the highest property tax district in the area and the new tax money is used to fund enrichment programs in evolution. Am I evil? Oh yea..

When I was in a high school history class, we approached the discussion of separation of church and state after we had a week to ponder and write reponses to questions such as:

Should the church be an extension of the state? and its corollary: Do we want churches to limit their beliefs to those approved by the state?

Is the state an extension of the church?

This was the hard one; there were a few that believed that Christain values shaped our form of government. Therefore, the state was an extension of the church and Judeao-Christain beliefs. Which beliefs? In Christaindom there are more than 14,000 denominations with new ones being formed daily; some have widely different views such as denial of the virgin birth or divinity of Jesus or the supremacy of bishops or. . .

Finally, there was the question of should the state also reflect the beliefs of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Rastaferians . . . In the end, I think everyone agreed church and state should be separate.

* better end this rant, I am about to fall through my soapbox *

They just don't make soapboxes like they used to.

jay

 

[jonb]

I always tell them "Founded on Judeo-Christian values? Sure. Founded by slave owners? Why not? Founded by mass murderers? You bet."

 

[taven]

I can't remember who said it, but people never do evil so gladly as they do in the name of religion.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by jonb@May 8 2005, 09:12 PM
I always tell them "Founded on Judeo-Christian values? Sure. Founded by slave owners? Why not? Founded by mass murderers? You bet."

[post=309299]Quoted post[/post]​

Red state values at work.

 

[Dr Rock]

well, honestly folks: what do you expect? the bush administration has brought religion to the forefront of government; of course the bible-bangers are now gonna think they can bring government to the forefront of religion. that's the example they've been set, and many of them are plenty stupid enough to act on it, as witness this incident (which I suspect is unusual only in that the church members in question were expelled by a vote, and not simply pressured to leave through personal unpleasantness from others).

people like chan chandler are always gonna be idiots no matter what. no doubt he was an idiot before bush was in the white house and he'll still be an idiot long after. however, the government has deliberately drawn battlelines in which idiots like him are gonna feel increasingly compelled to "fight." you can't STOP people from being idiots, but actually giving them the green light to inflict their stupidity on everyone else is another matter entirely, and that's what this is really about.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by Dr Rock@May 9 2005, 12:34 AM
(which I suspect is unusual only in that the church members in question were expelled by a vote, and not simply pressured to leave through personal unpleasantness from others).

[post=309340]Quoted post[/post]​

That's exactly why I no longer attend church. Over time I found that church had a lot more to do with social cliques, pettty turf battles and conformity than it did with worship.

SG

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by SpeedoGuy@May 9 2005, 12:38 AM
That's exactly why I no longer attend church. Over time I found that church had a lot more to do with social cliques, pettty turf battles and conformity than it did with worship.

[post=309344]Quoted post[/post]​

well, good. it's nice to know that some (albeit few) people have the spines to uphold their personal beliefs without subscribing to the nonsense of organized religions. however, most people are too weak and stupid to even recognize the DIFFERENCE between the silly shit you just described and the faith itself, let alone to DO anything about it.

I have no problem with anybody's personal religion. however, organized religion is about power and politics, not faith or philosophy. that's the whole reason it's organized, after all. and that's why it is just as unacceptable in any supposedly "free" society as any other instrument of power and politics. people will deluge this issue with all kinds of irrelevant and confusing arguments, but at the end of the day you can't get around the fact that FREEDOM MEANS NOT HAVING ANY OTHER FUCKER TELLING YOU WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING, in any respect or through any means.

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

Originally posted by lacsap1@May 8 2005, 08:30 AM
Yes,

Freedom, democracy and seperation of state and church, NOT !!!

[post=309233]Quoted post[/post]​

I don't see what this has to do with separation of church and state. This church is a private organization that can include whoever it wants. It says far more about the church and its membership than it does about the people who were kicked out.

This is the kind of thing that undermines religious faith. Not MTV, not secular life, not teaching evolution, not abortion or stem-cell research. Religious people undermine faith every time they teach hatefulness.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by aloofman+May 9 2005, 01:09 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aloofman &#064; May 9 2005, 01:09 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
I don&#39;t see what this has to do with separation of church and state. This church is a private organization that can include whoever it wants. It says far more about the church and its membership than it does about the people who were kicked out.

[/b]

Agreed. Churches are free indeed to accept or eject whoever they wish. But when they cross the line into political lobbying, as seems to have been the case here, they lose their tax exempt status.

In either case, it doesn&#39;t sound like the minister is all too bright.

<!--QuoteBegin-aloofman@May 9 2005, 01:09 AM

This is the kind of thing that undermines religious faith. Not MTV, not secular life, not teaching evolution, not abortion or stem-cell research. Religious people undermine faith every time they teach hatefulness.

[/quote]

Lord Jesus, protect me from your followers.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by Dr Rock@May 9 2005, 12:51 AM
well, good.  it&#39;s nice to know that some (albeit few) people have the spines to uphold their personal beliefs without subscribing to the nonsense of organized religions.  however, most people are too weak and stupid to even recognize the DIFFERENCE between the silly shit you just described and the faith itself, let alone to DO anything about it.

I have no problem with anybody&#39;s personal religion.  however, organized religion is about power and politics, not faith or philosophy. 

Well, excuse me for being weak and stupid, but I&#39;m among those who see some value to organized religion. I get a lot more out of praying together with others who believe as I believe than I do praying alone. My practise of religion is all about faith and philosophy. I leave politics at the door, and the priest doesn&#39;t endorse any candidate or party from the pulpit.

If you feel that organized religion is not for you, that&#39;s fine. You and I are different people; I find something in organized religion that you do not. Just because you can&#39;t see it doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s not there. However, you will continue to insult those of us who feel differently than you.

 

[steve319]

It only makes sense that we should be able to gather as a group and learn from one another and grow together in our quest to come closer to God and to the promise of what we can become. I truly believe it can happen; that&#39;s why I keep searching for a congregation (in all the wrong places, clearly). The fact that you have found that renews my faith, DMW.

I don&#39;t have qualms about organized religion per se by any means. I&#39;m just disappointed with the results too many times. (Waynesville isn&#39;t too far from where I am, geographically.) I do fervently believe that churches can and do work in some cases.

Looking at the LPSG, it&#39;s the same sort of mixture. Here we are, people of varied backgrounds and qualities all learning from one another and (mostly) getting along. Tolerating the jerks, ignoring the spam, supporting one another as we stumble, and sharing our collective experiences for the benefit of everyone. Good stuff&#33; Yet even we (as glorious as we are) end up overstepping the line a bit at times when discussing politics and religion. Nature of mankind?

Anyway, one of the things I&#39;m thankful for is having found the great people at LPSG (What is up with this sudden emotional streak? *checks for fever*) :evilgrin:

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@May 9 2005, 04:46 AM
Well, excuse me for being weak and stupid

okay, you&#39;re excused

I get a lot more out of praying together with others who believe as I believe than I do praying alone.

why&#39;s that? I&#39;m not being sarcastic now; I&#39;d really like to learn why that makes a difference.

My practise of religion is all about faith and philosophy. I leave politics at the door, and the priest doesn&#39;t endorse any candidate or party from the pulpit.

oh, not in so few words, I&#39;ll grant you. but politicians and religious leaders mutually exploit their "coincidental" beliefs at the power-politics level - why do you think we have terms like "the christian right"? your priest is probably a principled man who&#39;d be horrified by the idea of using religion as a political platform. but what about his cardinal? or the guy in the vatican? they work at a different level entirely, with all the authorities and responsibilities that entails.

You and I are different people; I find something in organized religion that you do not. Just because you can&#39;t see it doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s not there.

[post=309395]Quoted post[/post]​

oh, I&#39;m sure there are a few things there that I can&#39;t see. however, the fact that I can&#39;t see them does tend to confirm that whatever they are, they can&#39;t outweight all the BAD things that are all too evident about organized religion, even to me.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by aloofman+May 8 2005, 08:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aloofman &#064; May 8 2005, 08:09 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-lacsap1@May 8 2005, 08:30 AM
Yes,

Freedom, democracy and seperation of state and church, NOT &#33;&#33;&#33;

[post=309233]Quoted post[/post]​

I don&#39;t see what this has to do with separation of church and state. This church is a private organization that can include whoever it wants. It says far more about the church and its membership than it does about the people who were kicked out.

This is the kind of thing that undermines religious faith. Not MTV, not secular life, not teaching evolution, not abortion or stem-cell research. Religious people undermine faith every time they teach hatefulness.

[post=309355]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
According the IRS rules, a church that endorses political candidates ceases to be considered a tax exempt organization and is considered a political organization. Churches may even from the pulpit endorse and/or oppose issues like a gambling amendment or anti-gay amendment, but not specific parties or canditates. To do that makes the "church" a political party according to IRS and all gifts no longer count as charitable giving.

 

[Freddie53]

It is this kind of bull shit from fake preachers who don&#39;t have a clue about who Jesus was and wouldn&#39;t recognize him if he walked into the church on Sunday morning. This jackass would most likely have Jesus expelled from his congregation if Jesus were to show up in the flesh.

Remember this is a 100 member congregation in a town of almost 10,000. It was a Baptist church and each Baptist church is completely independent. The First Baptist Church pastor with well over 1000 members I am sure wasn&#39;t too keen on kicking people out of the church.

I am a devout Christian. I seriously doubt this jack ass has any kind of relationship with God. He is fake as a three dollar bill. And worse than that, there are people who don&#39;t want to even consider God becasue of people like him.

Rest assured if he was the only preacher in town, I would stay home. If he were in my town, I would have as little to do with his church and him as possible.

He is a disgrace to the Christian faith.

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by Freddie53@May 9 2005, 06:22 AM
gambling amendment

[post=309458]Quoted post[/post]​

Churches against gambling? Hypocrisy? Bingo.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by Dr Rock@May 9 2005, 01:37 PM

I get a lot more out of praying together with others who believe as I believe than I do praying alone.

why&#39;s that? I&#39;m not being sarcastic now; I&#39;d really like to learn why that makes a difference.

I&#39;m not a loner. According to Scripture, "Wherever two or more are gathered in My name, I am there." For me, there is something uplifting about being part of a faith community and knowing that I&#39;m saying and singing the same words together with a group of people who share my beliefs. They might not have the same political views, but they are my spiritual brothers. There is strength in numbers, and comfort as well. And the ceremony of the Mass gives me a feeling of belonging. I am one of the Initiated.

your priest is probably a principled man who&#39;d be horrified by the idea of using religion as a political platform. but what about his cardinal? or the guy in the vatican? they work at a different level entirely, with all the authorities and responsibilities that entails.

Of course they do. The Vatican City is an independent nation. Where government is involved, there is politics. However, the Church doesn&#39;t seek to influence our political views. The Holy See has a right to voice the official Catholic stand on moral views of a political debate, but then it is left to the individual&#39;s conscience to decide what is right for him. For example: John-Paul II stated in no uncertain terms that the invasion of Iraq doesn&#39;t fall within the Church&#39;s guidelines of a Just War. In the eyes of the Church, the Iraqi War is an illegal and immoral war. That does not mean, however, that Catholic military personnel must be conscientious advisors and refuse to serve. That is an individual decision that each Catholic must make according to his own conscience. The Church will not infringe on our right to exercise our free will. (BTW, our priest doesn&#39;t answer to a cardinal.)

You and I are different people; I find something in organized religion that you do not. Just because you can&#39;t see it doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s not there.

[post=309395]Quoted post[/post]​

oh, I&#39;m sure there are a few things there that I can&#39;t see. however, the fact that I can&#39;t see them does tend to confirm that whatever they are, they can&#39;t outweight all the BAD things that are all too evident about organized religion, even to me.

What is bad is not organized religion itself, but the abuse of organized religion. The single biggest topic usually brought up as &#39;proof&#39; that Catholicism is bad is the sexual molestation by priests. That is not a part of our religion. These men are not molesters because they are priests; they are molesters that happen to be priests. I am outraged that it happened. I&#39;m angry at the way it was handled. I hope that steps will be taken to prevent it from happening again, and that the priests who do such things will be handled in a more appropriate manner. But you know what? Most Catholics feel that way. The actions of those who should serve the Church has no effect on our faith: our beliefs remain intact. There is the difference between faith and politics in the Catholic Church. They may both be present, but one doesn&#39;t have to cancel out, or even affect, the other. The Pope and other bishops don&#39;t tell me what to believe politically, but they are my spiritual leaders. I remain a practicing Catholic, but my political views are my own.