Can You Really Be Involuntarily Celibate?

[wallyj84]

Is involuntary celibacy real? Can someone really be celibate due to factors outside of their control or is celibacy on some level always a choice?

Personally, I think it is always a choice.Or 99% of the time it is a choice. Getting laid or getting a girlfriend is not that hard. Pairing up is built into our makeup as human beings. Involuntarily celibates are probably victims of self sabotage more so than anything else. That is my opinion. What do you think?

 

[DiomedesXVI]

No. The concept of involuntary celibacy is just a roundabout way for narcissists to shrug off all accountability for their own personal failings. No one is entitled to make love to you, IC implies that someone is, and that it’s someone else’s fault for your lacking sex life. I find everytime someone has a less than stellar sex life and calls it IC, it’s actually because they themselves are the problem. Usually it’s that they lack any resolve to improve themselves and when their laziness doesn’t catch the flies they believe it should, then it’s not their fault, but rather the world’s and how society is out to disenfranchise them. Please.

 

[deleted1138933]

No matter how much you improve, some things women want cannot change.

 

[wallyj84]

No matter how much you improve, some things women want cannot change.

True. But unlike men, there is a lot more variety in what women want.

 

[deleted1138933]

In some things, but not the physical aspects

 

[palakaorion]

Unless you're incarcerated, or incapacitated, there's always someone willing to fuck, whether for pay or for free. Anyone with Internet and a bank account can be fucking in a matter of hours.

Whether or not you find those people desirable is a completely different thing.

 

[malakos]

The "there's always someone who will fuck" line makes no sense. This is possibly true for everyone. And having preferences that one does not want to compromise on is normal and fair. Why should anyone be inclined to have sex with someone they don't find attractive? Looking at the incel phenomenon from this perspective is failing to address what makes them peculiar, and is motivating the label.

For one reason or another, incels consistently fail to romantic connections with the types of persons they are attracted to. There are any number of reasons why this occurs, and surely it varies from one incel to the next.

It's reasonable to question the theories that they promote about genetic inferiority and various physical traits (especially height) as the cause of their celibacy. Perhaps that line of thinking is completely wrong. However, even if the cause of incelism is mostly psychological,* that does not mean that it's not involuntary.

I hardly ever hear anyone claim that psychological disorders are chosen. Psychological damage tends to be something imposed on an individual by traumas in their experience that were outside of their control. Often psychological damage is something that can be processed and worked through with intensive effort and care over extended periods of time. But it tends to be a very difficult process, and it's not warranted to just expect people to easily get over their damage.

But most importantly, even if it is possible to work through psychological damage, that doesn't mean that having that damage is voluntary. So yes, I'm inclined to think that there are some who are celibate but didn't voluntarily choose to be such.


*Though I'm arguing that celibacy can have involuntary psychological causes, I'm not committed to psychology being the only cause of incelism.

 

[wallyj84]

In some things, but not the physical aspects

I disagree. I think there is a lot of variety in what women find physically attractive as well. They are also willing to be very forgiving of men who don't match up physically if they are good in other areas.

 

[wallyj84]

The "there's always someone who will fuck" line makes no sense. This is possibly true for everyone. And having preferences that one does not want to compromise on is normal and fair. Why should anyone be inclined to have sex with someone they don't find attractive? Looking at the incel phenomenon from this perspective is failing to address what makes them peculiar, and is motivating the label.

For one reason or another, incels consistently fail to romantic connections with the types of persons they are attracted to. There are any number of reasons why this occurs, and surely it varies from one incel to the next.

It's reasonable to question the theories that they promote about genetic inferiority and various physical traits (especially height) as the cause of their celibacy. Perhaps that line of thinking is completely wrong. However, even if the cause of incelism is mostly psychological,* that does not mean that it's not involuntary.

I hardly ever hear anyone claim that psychological disorders are chosen. Psychological damage tends to be something imposed on an individual by traumas in their experience that were outside of their control. Often psychological damage is something that can be processed and worked through with intensive effort and care over extended periods of time. But it tends to be a very difficult process, and it's not warranted to just expect people to easily get over their damage.

But most importantly, even if it is possible to work through psychological damage, that doesn't mean that having that damage is voluntary. So yes, I'm inclined to think that there are some who are celibate but didn't voluntarily choose to be such.


*Though I'm arguing that celibacy can have involuntary psychological causes, I'm not committed to psychology being the only cause of incelism.

Great point. Psychological problems aren't choices. I would argue that not dealing with them is a choice, but you can easily argue against that.

In terms of preferences, do you think there is a point where someone's preferences are unrealistic?

 

[michael_3165]

The whole thing is bullshit. Women not going for you is almost never about what you look like - fatties get shagged, uglies get shagged. The issue is that these guys have spent the majority of their teens sat in front of games consoles, talking only about gaming and not getting out in the real world and learning to communicate properly with other people. It is then no wonder when they go up to a girl and flirt that they get shrugged off. Because they invariably have no natural charisma, no ability to show an interest in another person and have a narrow interest range.

I know this sounds harsh but it is simply a way of blaming everyone else for how socially inept you are. Rather than seeking to improve your social skills, your ability to show an interest in others and building relationships, many of these so called incels simply whine and bitch about how shit society treats them. Its nonsense.

I am short. I wasn't all that good looking growing up. I had to work on my physique, get myself out there into social situations to develop the ability to make positive relationships with women (and men). I could have sat at home bitching about how women like tall, square jawed, muscular guys but the fact is most women I know go for the average looking guy. Sure they may have fantasies about chiselled physiques and actor good looks but that isn't the be all and end all. its the same as men who like big tits, narrow waist and long legs. Yes it may be a fantasy but they are just as happy being with other less "classically" hot women.

In summary, these whiners need to get a grip - take responsibility and own their social awkwardness and physical attributes. Stop blaming women for the fact you are inadequate, that is on you not them. Moaning is the most unattractive trait. Sexual attractiveness is almost always down to humour and charisma. You can be the most handsome, muscled lad in the world but if you have no personality it never lasts long. I know so many funny guys that talk women into bed by being funny.

 

[deleted1138933]

The whole thing is bullshit. Women not going for you is almost never about what you look like - fatties get shagged, uglies get shagged. The issue is that these guys have spent the majority of their teens sat in front of games consoles, talking only about gaming and not getting out in the real world and learning to communicate properly with other people. It is then no wonder when they go up to a girl and flirt that they get shrugged off. Because they invariably have no natural charisma, no ability to show an interest in another person and have a narrow interest range.

I know this sounds harsh but it is simply a way of blaming everyone else for how socially inept you are. Rather than seeking to improve your social skills, your ability to show an interest in others and building relationships, many of these so called incels simply whine and bitch about how shit society treats them. Its nonsense.

I am short. I wasn't all that good looking growing up. I had to work on my physique, get myself out there into social situations to develop the ability to make positive relationships with women (and men). I could have sat at home bitching about how women like tall, square jawed, muscular guys but the fact is most women I know go for the average looking guy. Sure they may have fantasies about chiselled physiques and actor good looks but that isn't the be all and end all. its the same as men who like big tits, narrow waist and long legs. Yes it may be a fantasy but they are just as happy being with other less "classically" hot women.

In summary, these whiners need to get a grip - take responsibility and own their social awkwardness and physical attributes. Stop blaming women for the fact you are inadequate, that is on you not them. Moaning is the most unattractive trait. Sexual attractiveness is almost always down to humour and charisma. You can be the most handsome, muscled lad in the world but if you have no personality it never lasts long. I know so many funny guys that talk women into bed by being funny.

Argue all you want. You are not small.

 

[deleted1138933]

I disagree. I think there is a lot of variety in what women find physically attractive as well. They are also willing to be very forgiving of men who don't match up physically if they are good in other areas.

That does not mean that they want/desire you and/or ultimately they want to be with someone else.

 

[michael_3165]

Argue all you want. You are not small.

Even if I was I still have a personality. Which is why these people don't get any. They are boring and lack any kind oof charisma. As a rule, obv exceptions happen.

 

[Triasco]

I find it interesting that the focus here seems to be on individuals who fail at the typically socially constructed rituals associated with (heterosexual) sex.

Malakos makes a great point. "There's always someone to fuck" doesn't make sense. By that logic, heterosexual men in a male only environment should be fucking each others brains out with impunity. Moreover, just because there are people around a person, that doesn't mean that person finds them sexually attractive.

I think we've oversimplified the term "involuntarily celibate." I would consider myself involuntarily celibate because the environment I currently find myself in is limiting in terms of population I find sexually attractive, population of individuals who are interested in having sex with me (whatever various reasons that may be), and immobility, meaning I cannot go to areas or people myself, my without endangering my career all for a hook up. So it's not as if I'm choosing celibacy (more just resigned to it the short term, as the term applies to most people), but the alternatives are not really choices at all because they don't fulfill the actual need. Incels are interesting to discuss and easy targets for the American ideals of individual responsibility and disregard for social constructs and constraints, but they only make up a small portion of the population and of individuals that are involuntarily celibate.

 

[deleted1138933]

Even if I was I still have a personality. Which is why these people don't get any. They are boring and lack any kind oof charisma. As a rule, obv exceptions happen.

Yeah, so do I. that doesn't change facts, women still want at least medium.

 

[Stratavos]

Is involuntary celibacy real? Can someone really be celibate due to factors outside of their control or is celibacy on some level always a choice?

Personally, I think it is always a choice.Or 99% of the time it is a choice. Getting laid or getting a girlfriend is not that hard. Pairing up is built into our makeup as human beings. Involuntarily celibates are probably victims of self sabotage more so than anything else. That is my opinion. What do you think?

Well, historically, involuntary celibacy was coined by lesbians in rural, conservative areas so... yes, In the original concept it is real. Then it got co-opted by "entitled, young, straight males" who may or may not be undesirable in someway (poor hygiene, personality flaws, physique, poor mental state, financial status, etc.) which brought us to today.

 

[longstroke7]

Incels are just horrible people in general and from what I've come across they are largely racist and sexist bigots who blame everyone else for their own shortcomings

 

[wallyj84]

I find it interesting that the focus here seems to be on individuals who fail at the typically socially constructed rituals associated with (heterosexual) sex.

Malakos makes a great point. "There's always someone to fuck" doesn't make sense. By that logic, heterosexual men in a male only environment should be fucking each others brains out with impunity. Moreover, just because there are people around a person, that doesn't mean that person finds them sexually attractive.

I think we've oversimplified the term "involuntarily celibate." I would consider myself involuntarily celibate because the environment I currently find myself in is limiting in terms of population I find sexually attractive, population of individuals who are interested in having sex with me (whatever various reasons that may be), and immobility, meaning I cannot go to areas or people myself, my without endangering my career all for a hook up. So it's not as if I'm choosing celibacy (more just resigned to it the short term, as the term applies to most people), but the alternatives are not really choices at all because they don't fulfill the actual need. Incels are interesting to discuss and easy targets for the American ideals of individual responsibility and disregard for social constructs and constraints, but they only make up a small portion of the population and of individuals that are involuntarily celibate.

Fair points. Although I would argue that someone without anyone around them that they find attractive is still choosing celibacy.

Also, men in prison fuck each other all the time.

 

[DiomedesXVI]

I think we've oversimplified the term "involuntarily celibate." I would consider myself involuntarily celibate because the environment I currently find myself in is limiting in terms of population I find sexually attractive

That is actually entirely voluntary celibacy though. You not finding these people attractive and thus choosing not to sleep with them is an act of volition. You could satisfy any intimate needs with others if you so choose to, but by your own admission there is no lack of available partners, you just choose not to engage by your own preferences and attractions (or lack thereof). Point is, free will is still in your ballcourt here and that makes your celibacy an entirely chosen and thereby voluntary thing.

 

[diamond]

Yeah, so do I. that doesn't change facts, women still want at least medium.

It seems " Le Vagin" is doing all the talking....Oh right "Le Vagin is not masculin" yet your blatant statement regarding what women want—is sorely based on your opinion versus facts.