Canadian politician travels to U.S. for surgery

rob_just_rob

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FYI to those who don't already know:

Toronto shows as having a large population because the province forcibly amalgamated the former "City of Toronto" with 5 other municipalities (Scarborough, East York, York, Etobicoke, and North York) in 1998. The former "City of Toronto" had a population of @500,000. Deciding how big a city is without considering the metropolitan area makes about as much sense as judging a banker's income without considering his or her bonus.

Anyone who would seriously claim that Miami, FL is smaller than London, ON, Kitchener, ON, and St Catharines, ON, is either completely misinformed or attempting to deliberately mislead the reader about the infrastructure levels in each municipality.
 
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vince

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Yeah, but as a 'Mericuhn expat living who has had the advantage of doing a lot of world travel, I lost count long ago how many times people tell me "You're not like other people from the USA. You're nice. Why?"

So, the image and reputation us 'Mericuhns have acquired around the world has been earned for a reason.
See, that's surprising to me. I'm an expat Canuck and I meet a lot of other foreign nations socially and professionally. The Americans I meet are invariably nice people. Not much different than most other nationalities on the "niceness" :rolleyes: scale.

Even the most of locals are able to distinguish between the actions of the US govt and the citizens. Americans aren't any different from the rest of us in that the government sucks and the individual people are cool.

Sure there are exceptions and some Americans are jerks, but I can walk out my front door and onto the beach and find a European thinking he owns the place and that the locals are only there to serve him. No problem.

Jerks lurk everywhere. But most people are cool.
 

cdarro

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How is the prioritization determined? Is there a panel or committee that evaluates necessity or severity?

Also - how much does a skilled surgeon earn in Canada vs. U.S.




I stand corrected - six times as big as Miami.

This vs.this

I'll address 3 of your statements.

In Alberta, the only province that I am familiar with, there is a standing committee of Alberta Health Services that reviews such cases, based solely on medical necessity. AFAIK, there is little that is unavailable in this province, but there is the odd case that is publicized; the last that I recall (about 2 yrs. ago) involved a young child with some kind of autoimmune breathing disorder whose parents wanted to go to some clinic in Minnesota. In that case, the province quickly agreed to pay the cost of the service, but not the cost of travel. This seems to be standard procedure here, but I can't speak for other provinces.

According to the Canadian Press, the average income for "specialists" in 2006 from fee-for-service was $281,000, with Alberta highest and Prince Edward Island lowest. The Canadian Medical Association Journal`s website says it was $286,000. Neither states which specialists they were referring to. This might or might not include dermatologists and opthalmologists and a dozen other specialties.

The city of Toronto is indeed six times the size of the city of Miami. But in considering the populations of the entire urban areas, Miami is larger by about 10%.

Just as a PS, Mr. Williams states that he will apply for reimbursement if he qualifies. My understanding of the Canada Health Act indicates that he does not, since the service was available in Canada, yet he chose to go elsewhere. But since he is the premier of his province, and has a tendency to piss and moan until he gets his way, it would not be surprising if he was.
 
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FuzzyKen

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This is a health care decision and like this Candadian VIP I would look very carefully at the surgeons available and their track record doing the specific procedure I needed. Florida is a haven for many people over the age of 65 living out their golden years. Because of the aged and the sedentary lifestyle of Florida one would just by statistics tend to find a higher number of cardiac surgical procedures being performed.

If, to stay alive and breathing, I had the ability to make a choice in surgeons I would look for the surgeon most experienced in the procedure I need. A Surgeon who has performed 700 quadruple bypass surgeries in his career is going to be more experienced than a surgeon who has performed 100. If this maple leaf politico chooses to pay for it "out of pocket" it is not a condemnation of their own MD's per se.

I have many friends in and around Canada. These people come from Saskatchewan and from Ontario. ALL of them are pleased with their medical care overall and it is far better than what we get under our private systems where people are flat "turned down" on procedures that are needed.

I hesitate to remind that my own Mother was flat out murdered when an insurance carrier refused to place her in CCU after a heart attach AND made the conscious choice over the objection of the Specialists at Eisenhower Medical Center in Rancho Mirage, California placed her instead in a convalescent home with no monitoring where she died of a burst abdominal aortic aneurysm that common testing that the insurance carrier also refused would have found the aneurysm. This was 2001. The system here is "broken".
 

B_talltpaguy

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This poster is often deliberately obtuse when attempting to make a point. It's just his style.
Yes, assholes whose primary endeavor online is to troll political forums and bait others into nonsensical flame wars are extremely annoying.

It's unfortunate that this "style" is tolerated here. It REALLY drags down the character and enjoyment of this community... At most forums I frequent (including the ones I run), people like him are quickly weeded out and banned for being disruptive and destructive of the community.
 

SilverTrain

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See, that's surprising to me. I'm an expat Canuck and I meet a lot of other foreign nations socially and professionally. The Americans I meet are invariably nice people. Not much different than most other nationalities on the "niceness" :rolleyes: scale.

Even the most of locals are able to distinguish between the actions of the US govt and the citizens. Americans aren't any different from the rest of us in that the government sucks and the individual people are cool.

Sure there are exceptions and some Americans are jerks, but I can walk out my front door and onto the beach and find a European thinking he owns the place and that the locals are only there to serve him. No problem.

Jerks lurk everywhere. But most people are cool.

This has generally been my experience, as well.
 

B_starinvestor

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This is a health care decision and like this Candadian VIP I would look very carefully at the surgeons available and their track record doing the specific procedure I needed. Florida is a haven for many people over the age of 65 living out their golden years. Because of the aged and the sedentary lifestyle of Florida one would just by statistics tend to find a higher number of cardiac surgical procedures being performed.

excellent point here.

If, to stay alive and breathing, I had the ability to make a choice in surgeons I would look for the surgeon most experienced in the procedure I need. A Surgeon who has performed 700 quadruple bypass surgeries in his career is going to be more experienced than a surgeon who has performed 100. If this maple leaf politico chooses to pay for it "out of pocket" it is not a condemnation of their own MD's per se.

I have many friends in and around Canada. These people come from Saskatchewan and from Ontario. ALL of them are pleased with their medical care overall and it is far better than what we get under our private systems where people are flat "turned down" on procedures that are needed.

I hesitate to remind that my own Mother was flat out murdered when an insurance carrier refused to place her in CCU after a heart attach AND made the conscious choice over the objection of the Specialists at Eisenhower Medical Center in Rancho Mirage, California placed her instead in a convalescent home with no monitoring where she died of a burst abdominal aortic aneurysm that common testing that the insurance carrier also refused would have found the aneurysm. This was 2001. The system here is "broken".

Jezuz - very sorry to hear that, Ken.
 

Holistic_Harry

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There is one Canadian politician (who I had never heard of before this, and I'm Canadian) going to the USA in order to jump the queue. He just wanted it over and done with. Apparently that makes people in the USA think that their health care is superior. Every year there are thousands of people coming to Canada for health care. They either reside here four months to fulfill residency requirements, or get fake ID, but in any case they get free health care paid for by our (Canadian) taxes. I'd like to see the USA get some form of universal healthcare insurance if only so that we wouldn't have to pay for their free loaders. At least the Premier paid for his treatment.
 

FuzzyKen

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There has been a horrific "evolution" in medicine over the past 40 or so years. There was a time that your medical insurance provider looked at what you needed and actually did try and do something.

In the late 1960's the corporate "big boys" of medical insurance companies began to see that technology was moving ahead faster than their ability to react to it. In order to have time to figure out if the new procedures were beneficial they started coming up with a classification called "experimental" which placed new procedures into a "gray area" and procedures placed into this area were not covered. In the early days most of these procedures affected cardio-pulmonary and in some cases new treatments for cancer. What was discovered at that time was that, "hey we can collect a premium from the subscriber, and we don't always have to pay for care." All we have to do is to start declaring everything we don't like to be "experimental". What started out as something that was fair evolved into a method of dodging payment and leaving the insured "on a limb".

By the time that we had entered the 1970's another factor came heavily into play.

The motto became:

It does not matter what the MD charges, nor does it matter what the patient needs, we pay a flat fee for everything and we don't care! We pay a sliding fee based on a percentage of the charges for the office call.

When my Stepfather who was a practicing MD passed away suddenly back in 1984 I inherited the joy of clearing the books and closing the medical practice. This gave me an entire history of this evolution.

#1. In 1970, my stepfather charged $35 for an office call. The average insurance company would pay $7.35 to $7.50 for that office time. If the patient required injections the insurance carriers would pay about 75 cents for the syringe and they would pay on average about $2.00 for the injectable medication. Depending on what it was this could be a profit or loss based on the cost of the medication. What we now had was the beginning of a trend where insurance carriers were starting to force MD's into donating medical care to those who were insured.

Now, if that same MD charged $150 for the office call or time slot he was paid about $35-45.

The next problem was that instead of submitting a simple written report to an insurance carrier the carriers wanted to cut their own costs and add to those of the MD. How they did this was to come out with huge complicated insurance "code books". Each company or carrier would have a set of procedural codes which would represent the procedures.

This accomplished a number of things. The first was it completely nuked the overhead of your MD. In order to function your MD and your local hospital had to hire huge numbers of people to sit for hours with code books. On occasion, it took as long as 2 hours to dig through these early code books to properly bill the carrier for one single patient because these codes had to be itemized. In addition, if one were to omit a digit from the code or transpose a code number they would not deny payment for the single procedure, they would deny the entire claim. This allowed these same companies to hang on to their money and to legally deny claims based on various clerical errors. By the 1990's most decent MD's were paying about $60,000 per year in order to deal with insurance carriers. This was two billing technicians working full time to manage the insurance billing for the medical practice. The MD then has to recover his costs on this so what happens? He is forced to again raise his fees to the patients and carriers.

Though there are exceptions, the income level of the average MD is in the current decade far less by percentage than it was twenty years ago.

The overhead today on a medical practice dealing with Insurance is absolutely astounding and this is part of the problem. The overhead was created by the very industry who was trying to supposedly "cut" the costs.

The next group that made a mess were again insurance carriers. These are the people who are the providers of malpractice coverage. In the mid 1970's California Governor Edmund G. "Gerry" Brown (in some circles Governor Moonbeam) completely ignored the plight of the MD when across the board at the same time every California malpractice carrier raised the cost of malpractice coverage. The average GP (General Practitioner) at that time went from about $2,000 per year to about $20,0000 per year. The MD's and surgeons practicing Neurosurgery and those in the field of Anesthesiology went from about $10,000 per year to nearly $100,000 per year. I was there for this escalation and though "Governor Moonbeam" was warned by MD's of the effects that this was going to have on medical costs for the people living in Southern California he flat refused to take action. California was only the beginning and these same things happened nationwide.

In Canada, a Surgeon making a salary of $286,000 per year is actually after taxes doing far better than the U.S. Surgeon. The U.S. Surgeon on paper will look like he is getting very wealthy. The figures you hear are for GROSS income and not NET income. The overhead has now reached the point that fewer and fewer people from this country are interested in studying medicine. It is for this reason that you are seeing a huge influx of foreign trained MD's.

A young MD is really in trouble now. These men make their exit from medical schools and are all horrendously in debt. They need the money to pay the loans. In addition, the average cost of setting up an "office practice" these days is about $350,000.00.

The Canadian MD does not pay malpractice insurance "out of pocket", the Canadian MD under socialized medicine has an overhead that is about 20% of that of the U.S. MD. Under a single pay system his paperwork is far more simple and he has far fewer problems.

There is ZERO medical systems without problems. They all have some problems. The business of medicine in the United States has evolved to where in all cases the profit
and loss statement is placed ahead of the welfare of the patient. The medical insurance carriers are responsible to their stockholders so they short patient care and dump costs to the MD's. The MD's are caught in the middle and have to pay both their staffing and billing costs as well as other overhead. The whole thing right now places the profit first and the patients needing care last.

There is no simple fix for this. As long as the structure of the system remains the same there is no manner in which it can be fixed or repaired. The only way to fix this is to scrap it and do something else.
 

vince

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That was an excellent post Ken. Thank you.

While my sister was in school working to become an RN, she worked at a hospital in Milwaukee in the accounting section. She said and continues to maintain that the insurance carriers are 90 percent of the problem with US healthcare.

I really don't understand how the so-called "free enterprisers" we discuss this issue with can accept the waste inherent in the system. In my business, overhead is the enemy and I do everything I can to eliminate it. Why wouldn't they want to reform a wasteful system?I can understand the corporations that stand to lose profits from reform, but guys on this board, arguing against it are just part of the masses getting fleeced by the man. Yet you all seem quite happy to have your pockets picked. I don't get it.

I don't buy the argument that government cannot run things. It's proven time and again it can and if it works well in Europe or Canada, why can't it in the USA? We always hear guys saying how much better the US is at everything. Well show me!
 
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Please keep in mind that this is only one man. To use him as an example of a "broken" health care system in Canada is ridiculous. Canada is a free country, so people have the right to make decisions about their own health care. My father had triple bypass surgery in Ontario, Canada the day after suffering a heart attack and has been fine ever since (that was about 5 years ago), and the total cost was $0. Danny Williams has a flare for the dramatic to draw attention to himself and Newfoundland. Most Canadians probably remember him ordering all Canadian flags being removed from provincial government buildings after a dispute with the federal government over transfer payments being reduced and tax revenue from NFLD being increased due to Newfoundland's sudden wealth with oil. Canadians probably remember his "ABC" campaign during the last federal election because of this argument over money - Anyone But Conservatives (since it was the current Conservative federal gov't in Canada demanding that NFLD pay up for all of the years that it was on the receiving end of huge transfer payments).

As for Danny Williams being a "powerful Canadian politician", I have to disagree with that. He is the premier of one of the smallest provinces in Canada that has historically needed large transfer payments from the federal gov't to stay afloat. NFLD wasn't taken seriously by the rest of Canada (hence all of the "Newfie" jokes that every Canadian knows) until recently with the discovery of huge deposits of oil off the coat that are worth billions of dollars. NFLD used to have the highest unemployment in Canada at 16% when the unemployment rate nationally was only about 6% (I don't know what the unemployment rate in NFLD is today). This forced many Newfies to move to other parts of Canada to find work. I think it's because of all this that Danny Williams pulls these stunts - to get attention and piss off the feds.

If you think the U.S. has lots of freeloaders, you have nothing on Canada. With the huge social safety net we have in Canada, it's a freeloaders paradise! I'm not against our social safety net if a person legitimately needs it for a short period of time, but I get really pissed off when I hear people bragging about taking advantage of the system and making it a lifestyle choice.
 
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B_starinvestor

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Please keep in mind that this is only one man. To use him as an example of a "broken" health care system in Canada is ridiculous. Canada is a free country, so people have the right to make decisions about their own health care. My father had triple bypass surgery in Ontario, Canada the day after suffering a heart attack and has been fine ever since (that was about 5 years ago), and the total cost was $0. Danny Williams has a flare for the dramatic to draw attention to himself and Newfoundland. Most Canadians probably remember him ordering all Canadian flags being removed from provincial government buildings after a dispute with the federal government over transfer payments being reduced and tax revenue from NFLD being increased due to Newfoundland's sudden wealth with oil. Canadians probably remember his "ABC" campaign during the last federal election because of this argument over money - Anyone But Conservatives (since it was the current Conservative federal gov't in Canada demanding that NFLD pay up for all of the years that it was on the receiving end of huge transfer payments).

As for Danny Williams being a "powerful Canadian politician", I have to disagree with that. He is the premier of one of the smallest provinces in Canada that has historically needed large transfer payments from the federal gov't to stay afloat. NFLD wasn't taken seriously by the rest of Canada (hence all of the "Newfie" jokes that every Canadian knows) until recently with the discovery of huge deposits of oil off the coat that are worth billions of dollars. NFLD used to have the highest unemployment in Canada at 16% when the unemployment rate nationally was only about 6% (I don't know what the unemployment rate in NFLD is today). This forced many Newfies to move to other parts of Canada to find work. I think it's because of all this that Danny Williams pulls these stunts - to get attention and piss off the feds.

Good information.

Yet the fact that - having the financial means to do so - he chose to flee the country in search of a skilled medical procedure....may make an observer quite curious.
 

cdarro

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Good information.

Yet the fact that - having the financial means to do so - he chose to flee the country in search of a skilled medical procedure....may make an observer quite curious.

The fact is that, wishing to jump to the head of the line and having the financial means to do so, he fled to a place where it's allowed. No unbiased observer should be curious.
 

B_starinvestor

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The fact is that, wishing to jump to the head of the line and having the financial means to do so, he fled to a place where it's allowed. No unbiased observer should be curious.

The curiousity lies in the need to flee the country in order to 'jump in line.' Currently, we don't need to travel abroad in order to arrange for timely medical procedures.

Therein, moving to a system similar to Canada's - at least in this instance/scenario - we will be taking a step backward.

Obviously, for those of us that are interested in the timely treatment of major medical procedures - we are indeed, very curious.
 

B_VinylBoy

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The curiousity lies in the need to flee the country in order to 'jump in line.' Currently, we don't need to travel abroad in order to arrange for timely medical procedures.

That's not a question of need... it's more of a want than anything else.

Therein, moving to a system similar to Canada's - at least in this instance/scenario - we will be taking a step backward.

Not always. For the mass majority they don't have a choice. I know I can't jump on a plane and go to a foreign country for medical treatment on a whim.
 

Industrialsize

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The curiousity lies in the need to flee the country in order to 'jump in line.' Currently, we don't need to travel abroad in order to arrange for timely medical procedures.

Therein, moving to a system similar to Canada's - at least in this instance/scenario - we will be taking a step backward.

Obviously, for those of us that are interested in the timely treatment of major medical procedures - we are indeed, very curious.
Time waited from when it was decided I needed major shoulder surgery and the date of surgery?? 6 months
Time waited to see a "GI specialist" for a serious problem that was causing me much physical distress? 8 months
I don't live in Canada, I live in the USA in the Boston area where there is a Major hospital every 10 feet.