Capitalism is the engine driving man's betterment

[dong20]

Any economic or political ideology when taken to extreme is dangerous simply because most people (in my experience) are not extreme in terms of their own 'personal' ideologies. For most, eating, staying healthy and caring for their own are their primary concerns.

There is nothing wrong with Capitalism (for example) except when it's taken to extremes, in which case it's a disaster for those (for whatever reason) at the bottom. Such inequities are only a consequence of capitalism if they're allowed to become so by those at the top.

America is about the only country except for maybe China and now Brazil, where a person can move up the economic ladder thru hard work. Europe is calcified, almost a dead world.

Have you visited, worked and sought career advancement in every other country than the US, China and Brazil? I ask because your assertion suggest depth of experience, which with respect, I question. Also, writing off entire continents based on ...?

Last time I checked, 'Europe' wasn't in an economic tailspin, nor fighting two financially draining 'wars' while mulling a third. Although, it's entirely possible the US may exert significant drag on the EU as it plummets toward a very hard and unwelcome realisation that its no longer the big fish it once was.

...Hard work pays off in America. What a great country in which to realize a dream.

In theory, perhaps. But the reality doesn't seem to working too well for millions though does it? The short to medium term financial and (perceived ) standard of living outlook for the Average American is bleak, the long term ... potentially catastrophic (compared to say the 1950s - before my time but by all accounts a generally prosperous era).

If you know of a place other than the above, where your dreams can be realized let us know that place.

What you're apparently overlooking or, simply ignoring, is that not everyone's dreams are the same. I've often found those with conventional aspirations combined with a narrow world view do tend to overlook the blindingly obvious.

I like the US, I like (most) Americans that I've met there and elsewhere, but I can see no circumstances under which I would contemplate making it my home. The underlying reason your argument is flawed is because my 'dreams' could not be realised in the US, so in that regard your argument is moot.

I imagine many of those living in the 95% of the world that isn't the US may have broadly similar feelings. You'll possibly here from some of them shortly.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Wyld, most of your posts in this thread sound very jingoistic. It makes me wonder who has been feeding you those platitudes.

Capitalism is neither wonderful nor horrible, per se. Depending upon how it's implemented and used, it can be good or bad. The same with the other systems you mention... socialism and communism. Any economic system has its merits and flaws. The best system would be one that took the best parts of several absolute systems, and used them to the greatest advantage of all the citizens. Unfortunately, greed is usually an overpowering force for most people.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Actually, that's exactly what capitalism is: prostitution. I thought that the original poster meant to imply exactly that. In the capitalist system, you are a prostitute to the owner of the store, corporation, etc.

You make capitalism sounds so dirty. :wink:

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Any economic or political ideology when taken to extreme is dangerous simply because most people (in my experience) are not extreme in terms of their own 'personal' ideologies. For most, eating, staying healthy and caring for their own are their primary concerns.

There is nothing wrong with Capitalism (for example) except when it's taken to extremes, in which case it's a disaster for those (for whatever reason) at the bottom. Such inequities are only a consequence of capitalism if they're allowed to become so by those at the top.



Have you visited, worked and sought career advancement in every other country than the US, China and Brazil? I ask because your assertion suggest depth of experience, which with respect, I question. Also, writing off entire continents based on ...?

Last time I checked, 'Europe' wasn't in an economic tailspin, nor fighting two financially draining 'wars' while mulling a third. Although, it's entirely possible the US may exert significant drag on the EU as it plummets toward a very hard and unwelcome realisation that its no longer the big fish it once was.



In theory, perhaps. But the reality doesn't seem to working too well for millions though does it? The short to medium term financial and (perceived ) standard of living outlook for the Average American is bleak, the long term ... potentially catastrophic (compared to say the 1950s - before my time but by all accounts a generally prosperous era).



What you're apparently overlooking or, simply ignoring, is that not everyone's dreams are the same. I've often found those with conventional aspirations combined with a narrow world view do tend to overlook the blindingly obvious.

I like the US, I like (most) Americans that I've met there and elsewhere, but I can see no circumstances under which I would contemplate making it my home. The underlying reason your argument is flawed is because my 'dreams' could not be realised in the US, so in that regard your argument is moot.

I imagine many of those living in the 95% of the world that isn't the US may have broadly similar feelings. You'll possibly here from some of them shortly.

I have traveled extensively in Europe, mainly Italy and England. Now I do recognize that many people's dreams may not be similar, however I was shocked at how *small* a European life is. I use the word small relative to what is available in America. It's purely anecdotal, but most young Italians I spoke with have no sense that any hard work will pay off in a better life. We can define better life in whatever way you wish but that was their perception. How sad. BTW the Italians routinely despise the Germans and French, and say they love Americans.

I bolded your comment that the future is bleak for millions of Americans. If it is bleak for Americans, moving to catastrphic, then the rest of the world, especially Europe is in for an incredibly difficult time, far worse than America. Europe is an aging, calcific society. I exclude the UK and Ireland, and parts of Eastern Europe. The population of Western Europe is aging so rapidly and there is such a low birthrate that there is an absense of youthful vibrancy. A shrinking population means a shrinking economy, no way around it.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Before it was stolen from them, Africans had a pretty good capitalist system set up that benefited many.

 

[Zayne]

What's new about capitalism? what existed before free competition? The arab markets are probably the most primitive form of free trade. America used to do it best; now China does it better. over-regulation and trade-restrictions are making the US a less attractive place for business to base their operations. Right now we have a strong economy with redneck political leaders. Americans refuse to give up any luxury, delay any gratification, put off any short term gain. If the economy dries up, then we've just got rednecks.

Just to clarify, by 'rednecks,' I am referring to whites, black, and American asians. Asian countries have us beat at our own game. America is in the greatest denial ever -- our dollar is crap, our people are lazy and uneducated, and our leaders have no choice but to kowtow to the greatest denominator of lazy uneducated slobs in order to get votes and stay in power. Americans better learn to do without, or else we are just sitting ducks, and one day, we'll be looking to china for handouts. Don't believe it?

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

And he forgot that Europe is the largest economy in the world.

Well, if you think the American version of capitalism is best, good for you.
I'll stick with the Western-European/Canadian version: earning €15/hr ànd get free schools and hospitals.

The US has free public education. In California, you can graduate from UCLA or Berkeley, equal to any fine university in the world for about $40000 total.

Thats 12 years of free elementary and high school education. 2 years of junior college at MAYBE $2000/ year and 2 years at UCLA. UCLA is about $20000 both tuition and room and board /year.

The tuition at Ohio State another terrific college is $8400/year. At the University of Texas its $7600/year.

The cheapest I could find in Belgium was $20000/year tuition only but I don't read Flemish so there could be free univerisities too.

Education in America is again DIRT CHEAP.

 

[tripod]

You have just had your proverbial ass handed to you by several of our senior members and don't even realize it yet. isn't there something else you can do with your time other than stirring the pot with your right wing beliefs?

You seem to forget that you right wingers had almost eight long years to fulfill your conservative agenda. Two of those years were spent with TOTAL control of the government (House, Senate, Executive Branch, AND Supreme Court).

You guys did nothing but fuck up left and right... you couldn't run a country to save your fucking lives.

 

[mattflanders]

The cheapest I could find in Belgium was $20000/year tuition only but I don't read Flemish so there could be free univerisities too.

Education in America is again DIRT CHEAP.

I don't know where you've read that, but the legal tuition fee in Belgium is €540 per year. Not $20.000!

These are links to the 3 biggest and most popular universities in the country: (I study in Ghent btw)

Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
Studiegeld 2008-2009 - Universiteit Gent/Ghent University (Dutch)
http://www.ua.ac.be/download.aspx?c=.ENGLISH&n=46836&ct=47000&e=166885
(PDF)

So, America's higher education is anything but dirt cheap!


Edit: I found the university you're talking about, and guess what: it's not Belgian, it's American. And they've got less than 500 students.
The others all have tenthousands of students.

You know, I'm glad I've been to the USA before so you're not part of the people I base my view on Americans on. And I'm telling you, the Americans I've met, sure had a less warped world view than you have.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

The US has free public education. In California, you can graduate from UCLA or Berkeley, equal to any fine university in the world for about $40000 total.

Thats 12 years of free elementary and high school education. 2 years of junior college at MAYBE $2000/ year and 2 years at UCLA. UCLA is about $20000 both tuition and room and board /year.

The tuition at Ohio State another terrific college is $8400/year. At the University of Texas its $7600/year.

The cheapest I could find in Belgium was $20000/year tuition only but I don't read Flemish so there could be free univerisities too.

Education in America is again DIRT CHEAP.

And yet, the majority of working class families STILL can't afford college. Most people have to go into debt in order to go, and wind up paying student loans up to 20 years down the road even if they don't graduate.

Plus, there's a LOT to college than just tuition. We won't go into the cost of all the expenses like food, books, living quarters, laundry, and maintaining a life so that you can actually go to school. Also, we have to consider WHICH college you graduate from. Even if two different people get degrees in Communications, the person with the degree from Harvard is treated with more respect than the one that gets one from Bunker Hill Community. That bias automatically forces people to go for more elusive & expensive schools that are out of their budget range just so they can compete.

All of this so that they can get the job that they dream of when they graduate... only to find out after they get their degree that most people STILL don't get a job that pays them a decent wage after they finish college! I know plenty of people with college degrees that can't find a job in their proficiency and are forced to take on regular, barely above minimum wage jobs at convenient stores. So much for that degree in Physics! I'm sure it'll come in handy as you work as a cashier at Best Buy.

Education in America... Dirt cheap for who? The already rich? Certainly not for the lower & middle class, that's for sure! Or should I just say lower class since the middle doesn't technically exist anymore?

 

[dong20]

I have traveled extensively in Europe, mainly Italy and England. Now I do recognize that many people's dreams may not be similar, however I was shocked at how *small* a European life is. I use the word small relative to what is available in America.

I agree it depends on how one defines 'small'. By way of illustration in many respects my travels in the US could lead me to believe that life for many Americans is in fact smaller than many Europeans. Smaller in the sense that (and I hate to generalise) many Americans are little more than peripherally aware that there is an entire world beyond their national border, of these even fewer appear to have any meaningful grasp on what happens there.

In a real sense many Americans are politically and culturally isolated, happy in that isolation perhaps so I don't begrudge it, but isolated nonetheless. The consequences of this not so much for themselves but for people of other nations who have suffered at the hands of ill conceived and poorly implemented US foreign policy, is a world apart from a domestic cosy 'utopia'.

The last 8 years have been a rude awakening for many Americans I feel. But when views against last 60 years which have been harder on millions in other countries, many of whom have seen their national sovereignty impugned, or otherwise suffered as a result of living under a regime 'unfavourable' to Washington, I'm not inclined to be overly sympathetic.

Until comparatively recently there has little to pay for such comfort for most Americans, other than a steady decline in their global standing. But for many Americans that's always been something of little or no concern to them, even when they're aware of it. This often changes when they travel, and many are shocked at how much resentment exists - many here have attested to that reality. Ironically it's almost always misdirected anger, for Americans who travel (again I'm generalising), are less likely to be dyed in the wool isolationists.

I'll also ask you to expand on 'relative to what's available in America'.

It's purely anecdotal, but most young Italians I spoke with have no sense that any hard work will pay off in a better life. We can define better life in whatever way you wish but that was their perception. How sad. BTW the Italians routinely despise the Germans and French, and say they love Americans.

As you say, it's anecdotal, but I think such ignorance (where it exists), isn't the preserve of Italians, Europeans or for that matter Americans. There are ignorant, lazy and stupid people the world over, or so I've found. National rivalries within Europe are centuries old, but for the most part they may be a mile wide, but also an inch deep. After all, the British hate the Germans, and the French too, only really, they don't. Also bear in mind, they could have been telling what they though you wanted to hear.

I bolded your comment that the future is bleak for millions of Americans. If it is bleak for Americans, moving to catastrphic, then the rest of the world, especially Europe is in for an incredibly difficult time, far worse than America.

Ten years ago I would have entirely agreed with you. Today I'm not so willing to follow the "When America Sneezes ..." axiom. Global economics have changed a great deal in the last decade, the US is far weaker than ten years ago, Europe and Asia far stronger, politically and economically.

In another thread I used a metaphor, casting the US as an anchor that Europe may do well to consider cutting loose, or at least playing out some more slack. New powers are in the ascendency, and I believe Europe's future, (and more specifically the UK) is more likely to be found to the east, than the west. I'm not saying such a possible eventuality makes me happy, but I can be pragmatic when necessary.

Europe is an aging, calcific society. I exclude the UK and Ireland, and parts of Eastern Europe. The population of Western Europe is aging so rapidly and there is such a low birthrate that there is an absense of youthful vibrancy. A shrinking population means a shrinking economy, no way around it.

I'm not sure which parts of Europe you visited (aside from UK and Italy) but I've seen little shortage of youthful vibrancy, in fact it's in my face much of the time. But then I have not visited every European nation although I have visited most of them, and worked in several.

A shrinking and ageing population in Europe is a challenge indeed, and while the trend in Europe is more pronounced than anywhere else, it's a problem for the US too. I'm intrigued by your (repeated) characterisation of Europe as both a calcified and an (implied) singular 'society'. I have tried not to generalise (about Europe or the US) and have drawn attention when I have and would appreciate you do the same.

Europe is a continent, not a country, it doesn't have a single culture or society, it has dozens with as many differences as commonalities. To illustrate my point - Italy and England could hardly be more different in so many respects. America as a nation is in many senses also collection of small 'nations', bound together for mutual benefit. To judge America based on a visit to (for example) Oklahoma or Oregon would be unlikely to result in an impartial or accurate 'understanding' of Californians.

To return to Europe, your tendency characterise European nations in such broad terms based on your experiences in 'a couple' does your argument no favours. I have travelled within the US quite extensively but to labour the point I don't measure all Americans by those I meet in say Indianapolis.

To backtrack to the OP, capitalism is only the engine driving man's betterment if that man is heading in the same direction. As a social and economic ideology I think it's proven robust, yet when viewed from a long term, global perspective the pursuit of material 'wealth' as an end in itself is surely ultimately self defeating.

Ultimately, there will always be people on the 'margins' of society, some by choice, others who are simply disenfranchised, and as a species we need to carry them all with us, not kick them to the kerb because they don't fit the mould. If we don't, then I have to ask the question, what does that say about us?

 

[deleted136887]

More ignorant and flagrant anti restoftheworldism from a half wit. How is the view from the Titanic WGC?

Well said. The state of denial is unbelievable.

 

[DC_DEEP]

The US has free public education. In California, you can graduate from UCLA or Berkeley, equal to any fine university in the world for about $40000 total.
<...>
Education in America is again DIRT CHEAP.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but California is NOT the US. And $40000 isn't what I would call "free." Yes, elementary and secondary education is available to the public, "free," (through our tax dollars), but higher education is not free. In your perfect world of capitalism, it's available to those who can afford it.

Of course, your knee-jerk answer is going to be "anyone who has enough determination can afford it," but that's not necessarily true. I worked for my education. I worked hard. I carried full classloads in a difficult major, kept my grades up, and worked full time. And I had some advantages that some others just do not have, regardless of how hard they work. But I had to give up on one educational dream, because it was just financially out of reach. It was a catch-22: I was self-supporting (ironically, on a teacher's salary) so as long as I was working, I didn't qualify for any financial aid (not even loans) once I got my bachelor's degree. I couldn't afford to live if I quit my job. I couldn't make more money without another degree. I couldn't get the additional degree without more money.

You seem to have a very biased and limited world view. It would be great to see how your views would change, if you lived "on the other side" for a couple of years.

 

[manofgreatrenown]

Wyldgusechaz,

I just want to say keep up the good work, on both the thread and in real life.

America is the lone super power and capitalism is the engine of the world. (Notice all nations use it to transact between nations). Any other form of government seeks to stymie production, creativity and mobility (both social and economic). America to her detriment has moved towards socialism and has been hampered, but still on top.

 

[deleted136887]

Wyldgusechaz,

I just want to say keep up the good work, on both the thread and in real life.

America is the loan super power and capitalism is the engine of the world. (Notice all nations use it to transact between nations). Any other form of government seeks to stymie production, creativity and mobility (both social and economic). America to her detriment has moved towards socialism and has been hampered, but still on top.

Do you even live on planet earth? And what is " loan superpower"?

 

[manofgreatrenown]

Do you even live on planet earth?


I live in the USA. I think that is on earth? or is it in heaven? :smile:

 

[HazelGod]

Hello again, Ms. Teacheradiandytalian917...nice to see you here once more.

 

[mattflanders]

America is the lone super power and capitalism is the engine of the world.

Basic history knowledge tells me, super powers never last very long.
Classes on the history of international relations, tell me that the US is showing a huge amount of similarities with the UK in 1900.
Not the economic or political super power anymore but still the military super power. And that's when it goes wrong, sadly enough.

Here are some analogies: (now versus 1900)
ECONOMY: USA <> EU, China, Russia vs UK <> Germany, USA
POLITICS: USA <> EU, China, Russia vs UK <> Germany, USA
SOCIAL: terrorism (jihad vs anarchism), mass migration (3% today, 10% in 1900), universal scapegoat (muslims now vs jewish people in 1900)

Result: showing off around the world that they're still the boss (Iraq vs Boer Wars) and global pessimism.

Just to say that the USA should work on better diplomatic relations with the rest of the world. But once again, history repeats itself.

 

[Bbucko]

Capitalism is the symptom, materialism is the disease.

I have never been money-motivated, and the few times I let earning-potential trump creative and personal satisfaction, I've met with little success.

Your worth as a person is not tied to your job, the car you drive, the size and quality of your home and all those marvelous toys we choose to display in order to enhance our social standing. Intellect is an equally poor judge of one's worth.

Your worth as a person is in your ability to give and receive love: the love of your friends, the love of your romantic interest(s), and the love of humanity in general.

Everything else is a lie, a filthy, ugly lie. We as a civilization may or may not ever overcome materialism (though I'm not sure how much longer we'll last without some serious adjustments in our materialism), but Capitalism will eventually give way to something else. Its replacement may be better or may be worse for humanity as a whole, but that loud noise we'll be hearing for the next several decades will be its death rattle.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Hello again, Ms. Teacheradiandytalian917...nice to see you here once more.

Not my initital guess, but there you have it. Interesting that my post to that person, in this thread, disappeared.