Capitalism is the engine driving man's betterment

[dong20]

OK, forgive me if my reading of this thread was rather quick and skimming, but there is a curious absence of the word "China." In terms of current politico-economic realities, China is now the biggest and most dangerous player. If you doubt me, read James Kynge "China Shakes the World." He was Beijing head of the Financial Times UK, speaks fluent mandarin, and has travelled extensively not only in China, but also the USA, Latin America and Europe, assessing the impact of China's vast impact everywhere.

It's not mentioned specifically but alluded to rather tangentially, by myself and a couple of other posters in the broad context of 'Asia'. The discussion hadn't really broadened out in the economic spheres of influence at that time, we were still dealing with the rather narrow, whimsical and rose tinted perspective of the OP.

China is almost certainly the next 'USA'. While China knows this well, the USA is still largely in Denial. The global consequences of too rapid growth are as you suggest potentially very troubling when applied to nation the size of China.

 

[Rugbypup]

Ugh.

Plague on your house.

I'm out.

Agreed, I second that.

 

[deleted15807]

It's not mentioned specifically but alluded to rather tangentially, by myself and a couple of other posters in the broad context of 'Asia'. The discussion hadn't really broadened out in the economic spheres of influence at that time, we were still dealing with the rather narrow, whimsical and rose tinted perspective of the OP.

China is almost certainly the next 'USA'. While China knows this well, the USA is still largely in Denial. The global consequences of too rapid growth are as you suggest potentially very troubling when applied to nation the size of China.

It's really impossible to predict the future very well. Back in the 80's Japan seemed unstoppable with it's interesting mixture of government and business. Japan was snapping up US assets and Americans were frightened but alas no one worries anymore about Japan.

The probable outcome, if China tries to match the average American's consumer/disposable lifestyle, is the death of this world as a habitable planet.

Sorry, it's grim, bu8t it's happening right now.

Yep basically China is an environmental disaster area.

Relax the end of the world is near.

As China Roars, Pollution Reaches Deadly Extremes
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/08/26/world/asia/choking_on_growth.html

 

[B_Hung Jon]

It's obvious that having a lot of "stuff" is the foundation of capitalism. The fundamental problem with this is that it doesn't make people happy, peaceful or ultimately contented. So I think capitalism needs to be tempered with a spirituality (not religion) that can bind all peoples together. I know this is idealistic but it seems the only way that people can live together on this planet without destroying ourselves and the environment.

 

[BIGBULL29]

It's not mentioned specifically but alluded to rather tangentially, by myself and a couple of other posters in the broad context of 'Asia'. The discussion hadn't really broadened out in the economic spheres of influence at that time, we were still dealing with the rather narrow, whimsical and rose tinted perspective of the OP.

China is almost certainly the next 'USA'. While China knows this well, the USA is still largely in Denial. The global consequences of too rapid growth are as you suggest potentially very troubling when applied to nation the size of China.

My brother-in-law is from Northwest England. He now says that he couldn't go back to England to live (too spoiled in the American lifestyle). The standard of living if much lower in England he says, but there are a few perks; however, they aren't enough to lure him back.

I had a hard time adjusting to European lifestyle when I lived over there. I thought everyone in Europe was so poor. I realized how spoiled I was and found it to be a bad thing.

At any rate, these days I don't care about money (not materialistic like many Americans). In that regard, I don't relate to most Americans, but they are overall much much richer than Europeans. America is just more "comfortable" to live in (for most). But Europe does it have its charms in some areas.

Yes, in some parts of Europe, there is negative population growth. That is not a good thing at all. Why don't Europeans want to have babies? Here, in the "unhappy" US, people are making babies left and right. :biggrin1: (Ireland , I believe, is one of the few Western European with real positive population growth).

 

[BIGBULL29]

Capitalism is the symptom, materialism is the disease.

I have never been money-motivated, and the few times I let earning-potential trump creative and personal satisfaction, I've met with little success.

Your worth as a person is not tied to your job, the car you drive, the size and quality of your home and all those marvelous toys we choose to display in order to enhance our social standing. Intellect is an equally poor judge of one's worth.

Your worth as a person is in your ability to give and receive love: the love of your friends, the love of your romantic interest(s), and the love of humanity in general.

Everything else is a lie, a filthy, ugly lie. We as a civilization may or may not ever overcome materialism (though I'm not sure how much longer we'll last without some serious adjustments in our materialism), but Capitalism will eventually give way to something else. Its replacement may be better or may be worse for humanity as a whole, but that loud noise we'll be hearing for the next several decades will be its death rattle.

Excellent post!:wink: You're spot-on like you usually are.:smile:

 

[deleted213967]

This is a great video on the topic, explaining that Capitalism is a terrible system: YouTube - Noam Chomsky: Is Capitalism Making Life Better?

Dude,

Don't quote Noam Chomsky unless you are a fervent proponent of unfettered Kapitalism trying to silence all of its detractors.

 

[2322]

My brother-in-law is from Northwest England. He now says that he couldn't go back to England to live (too spoiled in the American lifestyle). The standard of living if much lower in England he says, but there are a few perks; however, they aren't enough to lure him back.

I had a hard time adjusting to European lifestyle when I lived over there. I thought everyone in Europe was so poor. I realized how spoiled I was and found it to be a bad thing.

At any rate, these days I don't care about money (not materialistic like many Americans). In that regard, I don't relate to most Americans, but they are overall much much richer than Europeans. America is just more "comfortable" to live in (for most). But Europe does it have its charms in some areas.

Yes, in some parts of Europe, there is negative population growth. That is not a good thing at all. Why don't Europeans want to have babies? Here, in the "unhappy" US, people are making babies left and right. :biggrin1: (Ireland , I believe, is one of the few Western European with real positive population growth).

Many countries in Europe have a higher standard of living than we do. Nearly all of northern Europe does and the UK just surpassed the US in average per capita income. Other countries in Europe enjoy higher economic opportunity as well.

The Human Development Index (HDI) is a comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standards of livingcountriesmeasuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to distinguish whether the country is a developed, a developing, or an under-developed country, and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life.
​

Here is the list of the top 12 for 2007:

1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Ireland
6. Sweden
7. Switzerland
8. Japan
9. The Netherlands
10. France
11. Finland
12. United States
13. Spain
14. Denmark
15. Austria
16. United Kingdom
17. Belgium
18. Luxembourg
19. New Zealand
20. Italy

 

[B_JasonDawgxxx]

Of course Lovely MB one should IGNORE such a screeching, mincing Nancy, with early onset male pattern baldness, over white teeth and a "natural" sunset orange spray on tan and a obvious hatred of all things female.
Trust me.
Ignore feature is the very next stop on my list.

Such anger in a 'LADY" LOL .well one with female pics at least,lol.Kisses DragonHag.Another one for "Ignore" FakeLady island is full up.Ciao.

 

[deleted213967]

Many countries in Europe have a higher standard of living than we do. Nearly all of northern Europe does and the UK just surpassed the US in average per capita income. Other countries in Europe enjoy higher economic opportunity as well.

That is hardly news but how does that demolish the tenet that a market-based system is the least imperfect economic model we've found so far?

The EU is LARGELY market-based, if maybe to a lesser extent than in the US. In some industries, there is more competition in the EU than here (e.g. wireless telecommunications).

 

[BIGBULL29]

Many countries in Europe have a higher standard of living than we do. Nearly all of northern Europe does and the UK just surpassed the US in average per capita income. Other countries in Europe enjoy higher economic opportunity as well.

The Human Development Index (HDI) is a comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standards of livingcountriesmeasuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to distinguish whether the country is a developed, a developing, or an under-developed country, and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life.
​

Here is the list of the top 12 for 2007:

1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Ireland
6. Sweden
7. Switzerland
8. Japan
9. The Netherlands
10. France
11. Finland
12. United States
13. Spain
14. Denmark
15. Austria
16. United Kingdom
17. Belgium
18. Luxembourg
19. New Zealand
20. Italy

Well, I lived in France and was shocked by the poverty there overall. Families that I stayed with all said that you can't get ahead in France to save your life. French people and English people do not have materially what the average American has.

The average French person is richer than the average American? I agree that Australians (lived there,too) are richer than French people, but even they live quite modestly compared to the average American.

The healthcare thing combined with low-cost university education must be coming into play here.

 

[Drifterwood]

Can you live off the capital that you have accumulated or inherited or married into?

If the answer is no, then you ae not a capitalist. You may aspire to that position and live in a country that allows you to accumulate capital, which is nearly all countries in the world, but until such time as you have, you are working for the capitalists and their capital.

Your mortgage is someone else's capital and the interest that you pay allows them the luxury of capitalist winner status. The job you do for someone else makes them and their capitalist investors richer than you. There is a scale of slavery from the bonded workers in South Asia, the sex slaves throughout the West and even dare I say the Fruit Pickers in Florida to the every day wage slave.

Check the source of your dividends before you get self congratulatory about your capitalism; who really pays the price for globalised profiting? But you can't have it both ways. Your capital, if you have any, helps others develop, in the meantime, you benefit from their developing, you exploit it's potential. So, there is a great irony when capitalists have profited from the development and then wish to complain that the developed country now poses a threat. Actually, the truth is that a minority of capitalists benefit, you have just had some cheaper goods, but the price is a lot of your jobs.

The truth is that your capitalists will sell you out without a second thought; your government endorses this completely. So does mine.

 

[Drifterwood]

Re the Europe US thing. There are poor people and poorer areas in both. However the distinction is that you pay less tax. US GDP tax take is around 20% whilst it averages around 40% in Europe. This means that those who earn well in the US have more disposable income.

All well and good until you need social support for medicine, housing, and social programmes of all sorts. I imagine that Simcha will have something interesting to say on that. The league tables on quality of living all show European countries above the US primarily for this reason, though the loss of personal freedom and the desecularising of your politics also has an effect.

Personally I prefer the European model.

 

[BIGBULL29]

I'm out of this thread. No, I don't think any economic system is perfect - far from it.

I lived in Europe, and I never saw the "high" standards of living. You can't get credit easily, you can't eat out very often, you can't buy many clothes, you can't get decent heat in the winter time, you can't get air-conditioning, you can't do shit. House furniture is not as comfortable, either. Everything is very small. Everything is terribly expensive. No bargains to be found unless you want alcohol (this Puritan doesn't like booze much, so...)

I'm not a very materialistic person, but I got very very annoyed at times.
I saw Germany as being richer, and it didn't even make the list.

Europeans sure are downers. I know that in England and France, people always see the glass half empty, whereas in the ÚS, people are overall more optimistic. The pessisism in Europe depressed me a lot, in addition to having my spoiled life in the US taken from me. But, you can't expect others to miss what they've never had.

I'd rather be homeless in NYC or Chicago anyday of the week as to be homeless in London or Paris. You know that France and Great Britain haven't been known for their generosity to the poor. America is far from perfect, but it still gives more to the poorest of the poor (charities, etc). Why? Because we are overall a richer nation.

This conversation is going nowhere, and it's infuriating me. I'm not someone from some hillbilly town in the USA who's never lived abroad. I lived 3 years overseas (Australia and Europe), and I know what I know. Sure, some of the W. European have a few perks overall (more vacation time, public transportation, etc), but I prefer the American model - by a long shot.

 

[2322]

That is hardly news but how does that demolish the tenet that a market-based system is the least imperfect economic model we've found so far?

The EU is LARGELY market-based, if maybe to a lesser extent than in the US. In some industries, there is more competition in the EU than here (e.g. wireless telecommunications).

The OP asked which countries do better than the US. I replied. I think a mix of capitalism and socialism is likely the best solution. Free markets are a good thing if you benefit. A bad thing if you do not. Moving a vehicle assembly plant to Mexico is good for Ford and its shareholders, bad for Ford's employees who will have no money to retrain for other jobs and will be earning much less. The older employees are screwed entirely. The capitalist system necessitates that there are losers because competition necessitates the state of gain/loss. We are not, however, in a perfect capitalist system. Businesses and NGOs have political influence which tends to outweigh the desires of the people where these businesses operate. Many businesses get tax breaks and the largest pay no taxes at all while small businesses and the general citizenry do.

Capitalism says it is cheaper to dispose of toxic waste into the public water supply than to pay for its proper processing and containment. Yet doing so destroys the lives of the people who live near that business. How does doing such things bring greater benefit? It doesn't. Sure some people will have more money, but others will be dead or diseased.

It pays to note that capitalism operates without a conscience. It serves one purpose and that is to make money for its shareholders at the expense of everyone else. It has no soul, makes no allowance for the prosperity of the commonweal, and does not plan for the future. We see this now in this country as large businesses offshore or just plain leave to where labor is cheaper.

 

[2322]

Well, I lived in France and was shocked by the poverty there overall. Families that I stayed with all said that you can't get ahead in France to save your life. French people and English people do not have materially what the average American has.

The average French person is richer than the average American? I agree that Australians (lived there,too) are richer than French people, but even they live quite modestly compared to the average American.

The healthcare thing combined with low-cost university education must be coming into play here.

Such an American perspective for such a well-traveled person. "Materially?" Standard of living is not about materialism or money. The index seeks to find those countries where the vast majority of people have a quality of life measured by what we need, not what we want. Not all those benefits are material.

 

[D_Cyprius Slapwilly]

I don't know of a truly capitalist system that exists in the world, so I don't know what you guys are talking about by referring to America as "capitalist." We have capitalistic tenants, sure. But we haven't been a capitalist state for at least 100 years.

 

[deleted15807]

Such an American perspective for such a well-traveled person. "Materially?" Standard of living is not about materialism or money. The index seeks to find those countries where the vast majority of people have a quality of life measured by what we need, not what we want. Not all those benefits are material.

Additionally study after study shows money and wealth doe not equal happiness. Once the basics are taken care of there is not much correlation between income and happiness. In fact the more materialistic the more detrimental it is to happiness.

 

[BIGBULL29]

Such an American perspective for such a well-traveled person. "Materially?" Standard of living is not about materialism or money. The index seeks to find those countries where the vast majority of people have a quality of life measured by what we need, not what we want. Not all those benefits are material.

Each culture defines "standard of living" a little differently, doesn't it? Most Americans don't think living in a rinky dink box house with no heat in the winter as high standard of living. Nor would they find the exorbitant costs of food (basic necessity) in Europe as contributing to a higher standard of living. Europeans are raised in a different culture with less materialistic ways in general. Ýou can't miss what you never knew. Many Americans would think, "Wow, university tuition may be a lot cheaper and health care costs are much less in Europe, but look at ...they have nothing." LOL. It's all about your cultural perspective.

I don't care about what I have anymore. I'm not the average American. But, If I did, I could never live in Europe.

In these threads, I often see the same three things re-emerge time and time again:

1) More materialistic Europeans hiding extreme jealously because they don't have the same economic opportunities to get rich as we do in the US

2) Europeans insulting Americans because of our hegemony in the world and their dislike for the Bush Administration (I know European leaders are fabulous and look out so much for their citizens and the betterment of the world)

3) Americans who REFUSE to understand a different perspective (there are very ignorant Europeans, too, but they know more about us because the world is so influenced by America)


I don't like participating in threads like this because it brings the worst out in everybody. Insulting each other's nationalities gets us nowhere.

How many more damn times are a few of you Europeans going to repeat this phrase: "I have no desire to live in the US." I get your drift. In fact, I got it the first time around. Likewise, the vast majority of Americans have no desire to live in Europe either -- they really don't. Most of our immigrants don't want to go to Europe either to live (most immigrants want to come to the US as the first pick, not Australia or some European country). I'm just telling you the way it really is.

 

[BIGBULL29]

Additionally study after study shows money and wealth doe not equal happiness. Once the basics are taken care of there is not much correlation between income and happiness. In fact the more materialistic the more detrimental it is to happiness.

I agree with that, but I''m not the average American. Although Europeans are less materialistic than Americans are overall, many of them also equate lots of money with happiness. So, does the majority of the world. This is nothing unique to the US.