Catalonia independence

[185248]

Exactly. They have shot themselves in the foot with this fiasco. Fortunately most people in Spain in general are hardly even talking about this issue and carrying on quite normally.

It sort of puts a little spotlight on the situation of finance though. Here we have coastal Catalonian people demonstrating they do not want tourists, that it is driving up rents etc, displacing people I'm assuming Catalonian residents young and old. Causing them to be unhappy.

While at the same time, Catalonia's main source of income is Tourism. Seems the only ones who would be winners of Independence would be large beachside property owners in the tourist areas.

 

[185248]

This is interesting also.....Where investment is coming from. As the port in Barcelona, Catalonia are in a strategic position to access Europe. http://catalonia.com/en/newsletter_news/newsletter/issue19/chinese-investment.jsp

40% of investment into Catalonia, while only 6.3% of Spain's land mass.

Yes, someone will, or intends to make some money.

 

[chrisrobin]

Exactly. We will pay the price for Cameron's irresponsible and ruinous gamble.

Cameron's gamble was not getting a deal from the EU, walking away with nothing and then deciding to hold a referendum. without thinking there would be a plan B
So if Spain is so sure that the majority of Catalonians was unity why don't they hold a referendum to prove the point?..

 

[Jason]

The EU gave Cameron nothing in his pre-referendum discussion. There was some abstruse change on the payment of child benefit to the children of EU migrants to the UK where those children were not living in the UK. Surely the EU must now feel their intransigence was ridiculous. Had they given Cameron a halfway decent offer then Remain would have won the referendum.

Cameron should have instructed the Civil Service to come up with the mechanics of Leave befor the referendum. This is precisely what was done with the Scottish referendum. There should have been clarity about the date and mechanism for submitting Article 50, and this should have been enshrined in law. There should also have been clarity about whether the vote was binding or advisory.

I think Spain and the EU are making mistakes over Catalonia. The idea seems to be to give absolutely nothing. In the short term this may well work. However it is going to fuel the next round in the dispute. Spain can expect legal challenges over direct rule, over a constitution which does not accept the possibility of a region wanting to leave, over police brutality during the referendum. These challenges are going to go to Spain's courts then to ECJ and ECHR. And Catalonia can expect victories.

There's also the financial implications. These events have certainly hurt Spain, and the Spanish economy is fragile.

 

[SamSpain]

Is that why the Catalan leaders have fled to Belgium with their tales between their legs ?

 

[chrisrobin]

Is that why the Catalan leaders have fled to Belgium with their tales between their legs ?

Firstly only the leader has gone to Brussels - the other are still in Catalonia - secondly tails between their legs, did you see the press statement?

 

[KennF]

Ok... Forgive my ignorance. I'm having a lot of trouble following this thread and the entire issue of Catalonia. What I have been able to suss out isn't giving me a clear enough picture.

If someone will give me some details to fill in my understanding, I'd appreciate it.

1) I am under the impression the Spain has a representative form of government. As such, doesn't Catalonia or the individual states/geographic regions have representation within the central government? It is difficult for me to understand how Catalonia has a real claim that they are involved in determining their own future, as long as they were part of their central and local governments.

2) I've heard comments saying the Spanish Constitution is illegal under "international law"... So, under what law, specifically, is the Spanish Constitution subservient to and in violation of? Is it the EU Charter? I thought Spain was a sovereign country in an economic union with other EU countries. Does the EU Charter invalidate the self-governing rights of the Spanish people who ratified their constitution? Was their constitution forced on them?

3) I understand that their is a portion of the Catalonia territory that want to be independent, and they are using political maneuvers to force "Spain" to open a dialogue. (a) Can't their representatives in the central governing body(ies) that could discuss the issues? Couldn't the equivalent of a Governor or Mayor pick up the phone and discuss some of the specific concerns? (b) I am not sure I understand why the Spanish government would 'open a dialogue' with separatists and those fomenting insurrection? Isn't that analogous to my left hand demanding making a demand of my entire body?

Maybe I am not understanding the history of the region, but I don't see where Catalonia has been made to suffer any more than how the State of Arizona, or, Province of British Columbia, or, Sardinia, suffer from their own centralized governments.

4) I am not opposed to a region wanting greater control over their own future, but am I not correct that they were self-governing in most respects? What, specifically, do/did they want, other than the right to secede? What specific freedoms are they denied, that other Spanish citizens are not being denied?

 

[Jason]

@KennF I'm no specialist in this. However:
1) Catalonia returns MPs to the Spanish parliament, as does every other region of Spain. It also has its regional parliament.
2) The issue is the right to self-determination, which is in the UN Charter (1.1.2) and is behind article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Catalans can reasonably claim a cultural identity (the clearest marker is their language) and there is a weight of international law which says they have the right to self-determination if they wish it. There is a parallel with the arguments for independence for Quebec or Scotland - Canada and UK respectively decided that these territories had the right to self-determination if they wanted it, and both of course decided they didn't. The Spanish constitution denies self-determination. It does not permit any part of Spain to break away, ever. There's a real question about whether such a constitution is legal (though other nations have similar constitutions). Spain has no provision for allowing an independence referendum. Rather parts of Spain are Spanish for all eternity, with no possibility of any change ever.
3) Spain has refused all discussion. This is the key problem. Catalans remember repression under Franco. They have objected to the recent, forced imposition of Spanish culture - for example they have been forced to introduce bull fighting because this is seen by Spain as part of Spanish culture. They object to paying money to subsidise poor regions of Spain. (Arguably this is colonisation as there is no choice.) Bluntly Spain could have solved this matter with a little flexibility.
4) There were pretty substantial limits on autonomy. For example Catalonia had limited say in tax and spend as transfers to the rest of Spain were pretty much an imposition, while the level of borrowing was set by Spain. Catalonia (like all euro territories) has little say over the monetary policy (by contrast Spain does have a say, but it is a single, Spanish policy, not one to help Catalonia).

The flip side is that the Catalan regional government included some left-wing idiots, and their independence plans were ridiculous. What they wanted was greater autonomy, and this Spain should have granted. However Spain has refused to consider this possibility.

I think we are now looking at a long-game of legal challenges, some of which will be won by the ex-government of Catalonia. We're also looking at an EU response. Yes the EU has held the line (no more nation states) but there are stresses and strains. Catalonian separatists hope that ultimately an international court will tell Spain that self-determination is fundamental and that Spain must permit a proper referendum, with independence if this is what people vote for.

 

[SamSpain]

Firstly only the leader has gone to Brussels - the other are still in Catalonia - secondly tails between their legs, did you see the press statement?

That is how it's being viewed here and he is there with 5 of his ministers

 

[chrisrobin]

That is how it's being viewed here and he is there with 5 of his ministers

well that's not all his ministers!

 

[TexanStar]

Is that why the Catalan leaders have fled to Belgium with their tales between their legs ?

Found the Spaniard!

 

[SamSpain]

Found the Spaniard!

Lol

 

[SamSpain]

well that's not all his ministers!

Maybe just the ones facing a potential 30 yr jail term for sedition lol

 

[KennF]

@Jason Thank you.

From your post, I understand that Catalonia does have representation in the central government. And that central government has broad powers of taxation and expenditures. It is hard for me to understand, therefore, how they lack self-determination. Especially when local/regional government also existed that was representational.

The UN Charter, as I understand, doesn't supersede member countries duly enacted constitutions. And while the Spanish Constitution disallows member regions/states to secede, that doesn't mean it is a violation of the UN Charter. Even if it is a violation of the UN Charter, that doesn't make it illegal. Rather it only makes it a violation of the treaty, subjecting Spain, at worse, enforcement mechanisms within the UN Charter on the specific issue including ejection from the UN.

As with any taxation issue, some groups pay more and some groups pay less. Some groups receive more in benefits and other groups receive less. With their being represented in their parliament, they are determining their own taxation/benefits. Their may be groups that feel it is unfair or unequal, but the redress for this is normal political discourse.

It doesn't sound, to me, like they are being taxed to economic servitude, or, with no services in return, or, without representation (colonization). Rather, it sounds like they want a greater say in how the benefits are being distributed. I am unclear on how that differs from every other group with a centralized government.

 

[Jason]

@KennF I don't think anyone truly understand the legalities. Assuming it now goes to a court process it will take years of abstruse argument.

However take Scotland as a comparison. As an integral part of the UK, Scotland has MPs in the UK parliament. Curiously Scotland has MORE than its population justifies. This is an historic measure to make sure the Scottish voice is heard. Scotland has its own parliament which looks after health and education (for example). However an anomaly in the UK system means that Scottish MPs vote on matters of health and education in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland has a financial settlement which means that Scotland is in effect subsidised by the rest of the UK - in practical terms by the south of England. Scotland has a pretty amazing deal - and still 45% of Scots voted to leave the UK.

It's an old world problem. National identities are complex and need all sorts of local oddities to make them work. Spain really should have made some amazing offer to Catalonia.

Only one western nation is outside the international law system - the USA. The US doctrine of exceptionalism means that the USA can break international law, and in effect no-one can do anything about it. The clearest example is judicial murder by USA, the so-called death penalty. The international law position is that this is murder and there are no possible circumstances in which it can be accepted. IF 100% of the people of the USA support this, then they are still wrong. Ditto Guantanamo bay, gun policy and much more. The USA is the super-power and can do what it pleases (until someone finds a way of bringing the USA to account). Spain is not in this position. Spain is signed up to court systems including ECJ and ECHR which limit the power of the Spanish courts and legislature.

Spain will I think be invited to find a solution. The stupidity is that the events of the last few weeks may already have wrecked the economy of Catalonia. No one seems to know yet just how bad this is. Probably the outcome in a few years will be more autonomy from Spain, but with both Catalonia and Spain poorer. It's just silly. Spain should have budged in the last few weeks.

 

[KennF]

Jason, again, thank you. I am still at a loss here.

While I accept that USA chooses to break its treaties, and hasn't signed up for jurisdiction in the international court systems, I do not feel the analogies appropriately correlate. So, I'm trying to understand.

In theory, and I accept the theory, any country can violate the treaties it enters with the consequences being (a) the treaty provisions itself, (b) the ramifications that other countries will fail to meet their treaty obligations, and (c) the imposition of war against the sovereign country. Countries sign onto treaties, under whatever terms, but they don't surrender their sovereignty.

The USA exceptionalism doesn't exempt them from the consequences. The strength of the military and economy may dissuade (c). The lack of recognition of the international courts limits (a), somewhat.

Turning to your Scotland example, Scotland doesn't, in my opinion, have a realistic claim that they lack self-determination in their lives. Even with less representation (MPs), they are actively participating in their self-determination. Am I incorrect that the population of Catalonia is represented at least to the proportional population?

If they are, then what is the complaint about self-determination? They are actively engaged in the politics that determine their future. There is, of course, a segment of the population that disagrees with the policies and economic equations. So, except for the 'right to secede', what is the crux of the argument?

I hear, and read, a great deal of confirmation bias. People starting with the assumption that the region has the 'right to secede' and, therefore, the Spanish central government should grant equal status to the Catalonia regional government to "have a dialogue" about how Spain can appease the region. But, I start from the question, are they equals?

What of the analogy of the left hand dictating to the body what should be done. As I am coming to understand things, I think that even if some awesome deal were offered, how is that not blackmail? How does Catalonia have a reasoned position to make demands of all of Spain regarding how tax revenues are collected and spent?

There is no doubt in my mind that a political solution could have been found before all the posturing. There has to be something I'm missing.

 

[Jason]

Americans are Americans, whether they are from Florida or California. I know it is possible to modify this statement, but fundamentally USA is a union which is one nation. The concept doesn't apply to many of the nation states of Europe.

Spain is a curious mix of units. Castille and Leon - the castle and the lion - are the Spanish heartlands (with La Mancha). Outside of this area the regions are all to varying degrees different. In Galicia the language is Galician, closer to Portuguese than Spanish. In Catalonia (and a few other areas) it is Catalan, closer to French than Spanish. The Basque region speaks Basque, nothing like any other European language. The south of Spain is the territory of the reconquista, with much Arab ethnicity. These parts don't naturally form a nation state.

Curiously Spain could be expanded to include Portugal, and once included also Belgium and the Netherlands. It had territory in north Africa, of which a couple of oddities remain. Or Spain could be reduced to nothing, as it was by Napoleon.

Spain is fine as a country on the map, but holding it together is problematic. It was managed as part of an imperial dynasty, and managed by Franco (a thug). There are parallels with Yugoslavia, held together by Tito, but which fractured following his death. Spain works and will continue to work for as long as most people in Spain want to be Spanish. I'm far from sure this is now the case. I can count EIGHT regions of Spain which have separatist movements. (I've just looked at Wikipedia and see it lists twelve! Maybe the point is that there are very many such movements.)

The long game is that separatists from all over Spain work together. With the divided politics of Spain it is certainly possible to see a group of separatists holding the balance in the Spanish parliament. Probably the solution would be a new constitution which in effect brings in cantonisation. Spain remains a sovereign state but its regions get enormous autonomy. I'm not saying this would be a good outcome, just that it is possible.

 

[185248]

Maybe just the ones facing a potential 30 yr jail term for sedition lol

After reading Quora and many of the locals views over there on the history of the independent parties, their recent rise and popularity. There was a good argument that pre GFC, independence was not really an issue.

I thought I'd go there to try understand the situation a little better. At least get another aspect anyway.

In the end, it's all about wealth, who has it, who doesn't, who want's it. And who has the most to gain, or lose.

 

[Jason]

The Catalan language is at the heart of Catalan nationalism. The opening verses of Genesis are:

Al principi, Déu va crear el cel i la terra. La terra era caòtica i desolada, les tenebres cobrien la superfície de l'oceà, i l'Esperit de Déu planava sobre les aigües. Déu digué: -Que existeixi la llum. I la llum va existir.

This is a Romance language distinct from Spanish and French, though a bit closer to French. Within living memory people were persecuted for speaking it. It could not be used in schools or offices. Right now, many in Catalonia link their language with their identity. It is what they are. Spain has made it very difficult to be both Catalan and Spanish because of their historic policy of language repression.

I think the identity issue trumps everything. It certainly trumps money, and it probably trumps politics as well. The separatists come from several weird parties who can only agree on separation.

Very many in Catalonia will be defining themselves as persecuted by Spain. I just don't see how Spain gets out of this hole.

 

[185248]

What is the identity of Switzerland then? It has 4 national languages.