Catalonia independence

[Jason]

When was the last time that Catalonia was a truly independent State?

When was the last time that Scotland was a truly independent state?

In bother cases the answer is a very long time ago, and anyway we can argue all day about just what constitutes independence. I think what matters is the identity that exists now, not the time since a previous independence.

 

[SamSpain]

Spain has asserted that the vote is illegal under its constitution. Spain's own court system has upheld this view. However Spain acknowledges courts that are higher than any court in Spain, including ECHR. It may well be that a process in international law will show the Spanish constitution to be illegal.

There is a secondary issue around a proportionate response. Sending in police to beat up the people was not proportionate. The Spanish view was that the referendum was not recognised and did not exist. Therefore the "crime" of people was to make a mark on a piece of paper. It is very hard to see how this justifies beating them up.

It is easy to pontificate from afar. If you guys actually lived and worked in Spain like I do you might have a different view. The vast majority of ordinary people on the street or in the bars support the government's stance and this whole issue has been caused by Carles Puigmonts brinkmanship and his lust for a fight and notion of self-importance. That is the reason also that the list of businesses planning to leave Catalunya for other regions of Spain is growing literally by the minute.

 

[Drifterwood]

When was the last time that Scotland was a truly independent state?

In bother cases the answer is a very long time ago, and anyway we can argue all day about just what constitutes independence. I think what matters is the identity that exists now, not the time since a previous independence.

I beg to differ. The boundaries have moved all over the place, and what about the Balearics? In out, in out, shake it all about.

I think you have to go pre El Andalus to find an independent Catalonia.

Similar issues in "Wales".

 

[950483]

Sadly true. The old perception of the BBC being rather left wing, just because it was truly independent, is sadly no longer the case. It is of little value now. Some of the original programming is still good but the level of political debate is pretty dire.

They still have Clive Myrie though . He does his best.

 

[SamSpain]

They still have Clive Myrie though . He does his best.

True lol

 

[Jason]

I beg to differ. The boundaries have moved all over the place, and what about the Balearics? In out, in out, shake it all about.

I think you have to go pre El Andalus to find an independent Catalonia.

Similar issues in "Wales".

The Welsh parallel works well.

Wales was absorbed by England in bits, and a very long time ago. The old Wales was a lot of squabbling kingdoms, not something we would recognise today as a nation state. Ethnically the North Welsh and South Welsh are the most different of any indigenous groups in the British Isles. Wales did not have a capital (Cardiff is a recent creation) and did not have any obvious institutions of a state. What we have seen develop since devolution is a linguistic identity driving a cultural identity. Personally I think it is mostly destructive. By all means support Welsh, but not a Welsh assembly, and certainly not the politics of PC.

Catalonia has a similar linguistic identity and actually not much more. Personally I wouldn't support the idea of an independent Catalonia. I think we've seen left wing idiots in Catalonia push it to the present crisis. However I think the case for Catalonia being given a fair referendum on the issue is unanswerable. Separation would take a long time - maybe a decade - but it could be done.

I have to admit to a certain fascination in watching the EU's abysmal handling of the issue.

 

[Jason]

Catalan language is of course not confined to Catalonia. It is also in parts of Valencia, in the Balearic Islands (as @Drifterwood points out), in France around Roussilon, arguably in a community in Sardinia, and in Andorra, where it is an official language. Forthat matter it is not quite throughout Catalonia. If the identity of Catalonia is linguistic, then the political boundary is not spot on.

A whacky solution that made me chuckle is that Catalonia could join Andorra. It would become a disputed territory in a recognised country.

 

[Drifterwood]

The Welsh parallel works well.

Wales was absorbed by England in bits, and a very long time ago. The old Wale's was a lot of squabbling kingdoms, not something we would recognise today as a nation state. ue.

This is below kindergarten and really more embarrassing for you, rather than rude to the Welsh.

 

[SamSpain]

This is below kindergarten and really more embarrassing for you, rather than rude to the Welsh.

Yes and unfortunately threads like this are more to do with pushing their far-right agenda than any real objective discussion

 

[Jason]

This is below kindergarten and really more embarrassing for you, rather than rude to the Welsh.

By all means criticise the ideas, but leave out the personal criticism. You really can be quite offensive.

 

[Jason]

Yes and unfortunately threads like this are more to do with pushing their far-right agenda than any real objective discussion

Identity politics don't often have a clear right/left demarcation. In the context of this identity issue the Catalan independent movement tends to be supported by the left in Catalonia and the Spanish position by the right in Spain.

My contention is that Spain is demonstrating some pretty extreme right wing views. I don't agree with the left wing politics in Catalonia, but maybe on this issue they have a point.

 

[SamSpain]

By all means criticise the ideas, but leave out the personal criticism. You really can be quite offensive.

@Jason it is you who can often be offensive. Lie down, take a chill pill. Maybe seek professional help.

 

[SamSpain]

Identity politics don't often have a clear right/left demarcation. In the context of this identity issue the Catalan independent movement tends to be supported by the left in Catalonia and the Spanish position by the right in Spain.

My contention is that Spain is demonstrating some pretty extreme right wing views. I don't agree with the left wing politics in Catalonia, but maybe on this issue they have a point.

The Spanish government position is also supported by a number of leftist parties in Spain

 

[Drifterwood]

By all means criticise the ideas, but leave out the personal criticism. You really can be quite offensive.

And you don't think how you patronised the whole Welsh nation was?

Anyway, I'm Welsh and being offensive is a badge of honour, particularly when aimed at, you know who .

 

[Jason]

And you don't think how you patronised the whole Welsh nation was?

Anyway, I'm Welsh and being offensive is a badge of honour, particularly when aimed at, you know who .

I don't want an argument with you. The point I clearly failed to make was I think there are similarities between Catalan and Welsh nationalism (more than between Catalan and Scots nationalism). I can see strengths and weaknesses in the nationalist case in both Catalonia and Wales. In both, language and culture are major factors. Catalonia additionally has an economic gripe, which I suppose is why Catalonia has sort-of declared independence and Wales hasn't.

 

[Jason]

SamSpain is on my ignore list.

 

[SamSpain]

Great

 

[SamSpain]

The fewer Faragist right-wingers on my list the better

 

[Drifterwood]

I don't want an argument with you. The point I clearly failed to make was I think there are similarities between Catalan and Welsh nationalism (more than between Catalan and Scots nationalism). I can see strengths and weaknesses in the nationalist case in both Catalonia and Wales. In both, language and culture are major factors. Catalonia additionally has an economic gripe, which I suppose is why Catalonia has sort-of declared independence and Wales hasn't.

Catalan is far more widely spoken, whereas I think Welsh has been dropping again to below 20%.

They have three times the population and double the per capita GDP.

Also I think your ideas about culture are a little romantic.

The Catalan situation is very hard to read from the outside, but I wouldn't fall into using it to support other political positions about sovereignty and nation statehood.

That said, the EU has laid their cards out in a bullish fashion.

 

[Jason]

On 22nd October both Veneto and Lombardy hold "autonomy" referendums. These are for more autonomy for these Italian regions, not independence. It is very likely that the people will vote for more autonomy. The practical outcome is likely to be that more money is maintained in the regions, not transferred to Italian national budgets.

I don't know how the EU will respond.