Catalonia independence

[eurotop40]

By all means criticise the ideas, but leave out the personal criticism. You really can be quite offensive.

Aeowwwww...

 

[eurotop40]

The fewer Faragist right-wingers on my list the better

You are my hero, and not only because of your attributes.

 

[malakos]

When was the last time that Catalonia was a truly independent State?

Not in any sort of union with any other polity? That would be mid 12th century. The union of the Principality of Catalonia, under the Count of Barcelona, with the Kingdom of Aragon was arranged in 1137 and was actualized in 1164 when Alfons I Count of Barcelona became also the King of Aragon.

 

[Drifterwood]

Not in any sort of union with any other polity? That would be mid 12th century. The union of the Principality of Catalonia, under the Count of Barcelona, with the Kingdom of Aragon was arranged in 1137 and was actualized in 1164 when Alfons I Count of Barcelona became also the King of Aragon.

Thank you.

So some time before living memory.

I think the point may be more to do with rich regions not needing or wanting a larger sovereign entity when they could exist very comfortably within a supra national EU structure.

This may explain some people's opposition.

 

[malakos]

However, Catalonia was still allowed its own legal system until the beginning of the 18th century, and since then attempts to achieve independence have been frequent. If we want to look at historical roots for political phenomena, I would suggest that the suppression of the Catalan constitutions, and the imposition of Castilian law 300 years ago played a key role.

 

[185248]

Thank you.

So some time before living memory.

I think the point may be more to do with rich regions not needing or wanting a larger sovereign entity when they could exist very comfortably within a supra national EU structure.

This may explain some people's opposition.

I love the use of "Living memory". Thank you Drift.
The only true history apparently is living memory. Because every word written before that, is able to be bent, twisted, to form any opinion one wishes...hence, it becomes repeat history.

No wonder HU-man invented an immortal being, a God, Gods, Goddesses.... Just so they could be told not to repeat the same mistakes by something other than themselves. Delusional? Perhaps, perhaps .

Guess that idea has worn a bit thin also

 

[185248]

What comes next...AI, telling us we are either delusional or unwanted or what love is?

 

[Perados]

The concept is the right to self determination. There is no need for suffering to invoke self determination. The Czech and Slovak Republics split in their velvet divorce. Independence for Quebec and Scotland was considered, without suffering.

Yes of course it would be possible for London to hold a referendum and leave the UK. The practical difficulties are overwhelming, but the concept is not a problem. I think posters above have said enough about the US constitution to indicate that this is illegal in international law. No real surprise here, as it is part of American exceptionalism, the same exceptionalism that allows the illegal death penalty (I've judicial murder). Maybe Germany also has an illegal constitution - if so it should be changed.

We've now seen pictures of Spanish police beating protestors. Are we seeing the beginning of suffering in Catalonia?

Scotland is a bation in an union, called GB. So, it doesn't count.
Czech and Slovak BOTH agreed to create independent nations.
Quebec... well, it was nice from Canada to grand it, but they didn't had to.


The right for selfdetermination isn't a right fir secession. The right for national integrity stands higher. That's why you need special conditions, like injustice, democratic inequality, inable to live your own culture fully and free...
All of this doesn't count for Catalonia. Therefore they don't have the right for independence. - they would have it only if Spain allows it.

 

[185248]

I think it is up to Zorro...( even though Mexican, it is Española) Because he makes the sign of the Z

Shortly thereafter, he was Lost In Space.

 

[185248]

Are they wishing for freedom? No, they already have it. Are they enslaved under a dictatorship? No.

Then, why do they wish independence? More importantly, who, not they?

Oh, I get it, fear. They fear being settled by the displaced and wish to set up borders to protect their lifestyle.

Yup, a knock on of other stirrings in the European neighbourhood.

 

[Jason]

Are they wishing for freedom? No, they already have it. Are they enslaved under a dictatorship? No.

Then, why do they wish independence? More importantly, who, not they?

Oh, I get it, fear. They fear being settled by the displaced and wish to set up borders.

The clearest statement of the reason is about as unclear as can be imagined! It's the speech of Puigdemont. The right to independence is moral, cultural, economic and political. So now we all know!

The concept of self determination is usually regarded as a ius cogens, a compelling law, something which goes beyond the law or constitution of any nation state. I'm interested to note that posters on this board do not seem to feel that their own constitutions reflect this (USA and Germany). This may well be right. USA is an oddity in matters of constitution because the USA has the doctrine of American exceptionalism, and I'm inclined to leave it out now. However most EU nations do seem to have the idea that national identity somehow trumps self-determination, unless there is some sort of special case where the nation is persecuting a minority.

I suspect we are back to yet another clash between different legal systems and different ways of thought. The Civil Law system of Spain and in effect of the EU probably does say that the referendum is illegal, the constitution must be upheld, that Catalonia may not leave Spain. A Common Law system would give priority to self determination. Within the UK (and Canada) there is no possible doubt that a territory has the right to leave, and referendums in Scotland and Quebec have demonstrated this concept in action.

Quite why the Catalans want independence doesn't really matter if the right to self determination is prioritised. Within Common Law that right would be the starting point. I think separating the economies would take many years, so I think there are practical difficulties, but difficulties can be resolved.

 

[185248]

The clearest statement of the reason is about as unclear as can be imagined! It's the speech of Puigdemont. The right to independence is moral, cultural, economic and political. So now we all know!

The concept of self determination is usually regarded as a ius cogens, a compelling law, something which goes beyond the law or constitution of any nation state. I'm interested to note that posters on this board do not seem to feel that their own constitutions reflect this (USA and Germany). This may well be right. USA is an oddity in matters of constitution because the USA has the doctrine of American exceptionalism, and I'm inclined to leave it out now. However most EU nations do seem to have the idea that national identity somehow trumps self-determination, unless there is some sort of special case where the nation is persecuting a minority.

I suspect we are back to yet another clash between different legal systems and different ways of thought. The Civil Law system of Spain and in effect of the EU probably does say that the referendum is illegal, the constitution must be upheld, that Catalonia may not leave Spain. A Common Law system would give priority to self determination. Within the UK (and Canada) there is no possible doubt that a territory has the right to leave, and referendums in Scotland and Quebec have demonstrated this concept in action.

Quite why the Catalans want independence doesn't really matter if the right to self determination is prioritised. Within Common Law that right would be the starting point. I think separating the economies would take many years, so I think there are practical difficulties, but difficulties can be resolved.

Australia once held territories under it's control. It still does. The Northern territory can at any time declare itself a free state. So can the Australian Capital territory, Canberra.

Anyway, one of our territories was New Guinea ( Papua New Guinea, back when I was going to school). Then their people wished independence...Why? Because for one, they were their own culture. Their nation was a battlefield to protect Australia from invasion. They spoke their own language and many other reasons.

New Guinea wished to be recognised as an independent and free culture, nation. To represent their own people under their own laws. Catalonia just wishes to oppose differences of hereditary, religious and flag waving opinion, which always raises it's head on a generational basis when a generation is about to die out..

Your brexit has opened old wounds. Just like Chinas take over of the South China Sea has reinforced North Koreas stance.

Deal with it. Before we are once again called on to help sort out your European differences. Because we will be to busy dealing with shit here.

 

[Jason]

There were good reasons why New Guinea should become independent, and it is right that Australia and the whole world respected these.

The same reasons don't apply in Catalonia. If it really is just about flag waving then it is hard to have much sympathy for the Catlan independence movement. However arguments around economics, basically cross-subsidy, probably do have to be looked at. In just over a week two Italian regions have autonomy referendums which are mostly on just this issue, and I think we have to come up with a view.

Nation states do generally accept the idea of subsidy from richer to poorer regions. However in most cases the area giving the subsidy is at the cultural and economic core of the nation, while the recipient is at the periphery. Thus in the UK London and SE England subsidises the north of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland. This is broadly accepted. In Catalonia (and the Veneto, and Lombardy) it is the periphery subsidising the centre. This seems to be the friction surface. In Australia if Northern Territories became very rich and started subsidising the whole of Australia then I think there would be calls for the independence of the Northern Territories. However in NSW (and others) subsidise Northern Territories this will I think be accepted.

The pre-2WW order had the idea that the colony (the periphery) subsidised the centre - it was colonial exploitation. The European empires have gone, but we are seeing some oddities within European states and indeed the EU. Spain's treatment of Catalonia is colonial. Italy is not as extreme, but there are elements of a federal structure exploiting the north to subsidise the south. The EU has of course bled Greece dry. (The bailouts the EU pay to Greece go straight back to the EU.) We need resolutions.

A blueprint for a solution for Catalonia might include far greater regional autonomy including some (restricted) independent bond issue. It certainly includes more control over local laws. (Why should Catalonia be forced under Spanish law to hold bull fights?) I think it probably does mean an end to Catalan subsidy of the rest of Spain (which means a new round of austerity for Spain). The migrant issue is more difficult as migrant policy is set by the sovereign state. However Spain may need to rethink its nationwide policy. The Catalan objections are paralleled throughout Spain.

 

[SamSpain]

I think @Jason has bored most people to death on here now with his pseudo-intellectual verbose babble. Back to the cocks...lol Hurray!

 

[Perados]

@Jason you can write and philosophy as much as you want. Accepted all around the world, by every jurist, is that self determination is not equal to the right of secession.
The integrity of a nation is such a high value, that it needs more than just the wish to leave. You need a reason.
The arguementation is quite simple, as long as you can express yourself, speek your language, live your culture and be an equal part of the nation you can't leave the nation. You already have full self determination at such a level, that you barely can improve anything by leaving the nation.

Too bad I can't find the right article of the UN charta, but I will keep on reading

 

[Perados]

@Jason you can write and philosophy as much as you want. Accepted all around the world, by every jurist, is that self determination is not equal to the right of secession.
The integrity of a nation is such a high value, that it needs more than just the wish to leave. You need a reason.
The arguementation is quite simple, as long as you can express yourself, speek your language, live your culture and be an equal part of the nation you can't leave the nation. You already have full self determination at such a level, that you barely can improve anything by leaving the nation.

Too bad I can't find the right article of the UN charta, but I will keep on reading

 

[Drifterwood]

You have to be careful of tyranny by the majority.

No one could say what the sovereignty was that was the flag being waved. Are we a more United Kingdom after Brexit? No. Are we more solid in our supposed desire to be Brits.

And what is it to be a Brit? A Catalonian? A Bavarian?

Who is defining these things and what if you are a Bavarian, but you don't want the separatists definition let alone independence?

Is a majority of 1 enough?

Personally, I am rejecting the Leavers vision and that means that I will mostly leave. Ironic for a remainer.

 

[Jason]

RT has looked at European nations which they believe are sympathetic to Catalan independence despite official statements - in effect they think these official statements wI'll change. Their list is: UK, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and I think a couple of others.

In the UK I think it quite possible that the official view will change. The UK prioritises self determination. The issue is whether this has been adequately expressed by the Catalan referendum. However a Spanish clampdown probably would prompt the UK and others towards sympathy and even recognition.

 

[malakos]

The issue is whether this has been adequately expressed by the Catalan referendum.

How could it be argued that it has when the referendum received votes from less than 2/5th of eligible voters?

 

[Drifterwood]

How could it be argued that it has when the referendum received votes from less than 2/5th of eligible voters?

Jason's rationale is simply to support anything that damages the EU.

You are correct. There is no mandate for secession, but then the Government went in and disrupted the vote in every way, including violence.