Catalonia independence

malakos

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Jason's rationale is simply to support anything that damages the EU.

Seems hard to tell at this point what in the long run will hurt or help the EU. I've seen plenty of nationalists who have condemned the independence referendum because they believe Catalonian independence would help the EU at the expense of Spain. That would fit with the narrative of the EU being an agent of globalism that is seeking to subject nation-states.
 

Drifterwood

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Seems hard to tell at this point what in the long run will hurt or help the EU. I've seen plenty of nationalists who have condemned the independence referendum because they believe Catalonian independence would help the EU at the expense of Spain. That would fit with the narrative of the EU being an agent of globalism that is seeking to subject nation-states.

I agree, but it creates a crisis. Support the loyal nation state EU member or weaken the nation state so that the supra national State can emerge.
 

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But Jason seems to believe that it would harm both Spain and the EU, and for all I know that's possible too.

I think that it would seriously harm Spain, not just economically but also where it really matters, football.

Their case for Gibraltar would also weaken.

As for the EU, in the longer term they would probably benefit, but the risk is their ongoing relationship with a smaller and weaker Spain.
 
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Jason

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But Jason seems to believe that it would harm both Spain and the EU, and for all I know that's possible too.

I'm amused at this speculation on my views! So here they are:

1) It is not clear that the referendum demonstrated a majority in favour of independence.
2) independence is a difficult concept. It's not about cuddly stuff like flags and anthems, or even armies and borders. Probably the best definition of independence is the ability to issue sovereign bonds. Catalonia wouldn't have this, at least not for some years.
3) Catalan independence would do a lot of damage to Spain, and there are major concerns here.

So am I in favour of Spain staying together? Probably, but not at any price.

4) Spain's state-backed violence against the people who voted was not acceptable. Given that Spain said that in law no referendum was happening, we have the absurdity of people being beaten up by Spanish police for drawing a cross on a piece of paper. Spain should be censured by the international community for the violence.
5) The situation has exposed an absurdity in the Spanish constitution where there is no mechanism for a territory to leave. This absurdity is not unique to Spain, but nonetheless it seems they have a constitution which is illegal in international law.
6) An appropriate response would be dialogue. Catalonia does have some genuine grievances. Instead the decision to suspend home rule in Catalonia seems guaranteed to inflame the situation. The king should be utterly ashamed of his actions. He had the potential to demand mediation.
7) There is almost certainly a shift in popular views in Catalonia since the referendum. People who backed Remain just a few weeks ago will now be more inclined to support independence. There's a real difficulty in knowing just what is happening, but the indicators are that support for independence has rocketed up.

There are clear issues for the EU.
8) The offer of mediation has been made in a whisper. Spain needs to be cajoled into discussions, ie discussion enforced with the threat of EU censure. The Spanish violence should be condemned by the EU.
9) It would be reasonably straightforward to give Catalonia a high level of autonomy within Spain, including a paper transfer of its share of the Spanish sovereign debt, and subsequent bond issue being specifically for Catalonia. It is also practical to stop money transfers from Catalonia to the rest of Spain. There are surprisingly straightforward solutions.
10) A Catalonia which services a share of debt and issues Catalan bonds could in ten years or so be capable of a smooth tradition to independence. This would be a decision for the people at that time.
11) The EU needs a mechanism whereby territories that are in EU nations can transition to independence with EU membership. This certainly applies to parts of Italy and Belgium, and perhaps also to the Basque Region in Spain. The issue was of course raised for Scotland and in theory continues to exist now.

The Catalan separatists may or may not have a majority and are led by arguing, left-wing idiots. In most respects they are in the wrong. However I think Spain is fast changing all this. The new order will be that Spanish fascists (which is what the Catalan separatists are calling them) impose direct rule on what in effect becomes a colony of Spain. I suspect the EU has already failed to mediate, and is very close to condoning violence and condoning colonisation.

I gather Slovenia will definitely recognise Catalan independence, if there is a UDI. I'm pretty sure the Scottish parliament will (a sub-sovereign parliament). It is possible that one or more of the Nordic and Baltic nations will, and perhaps Ireland. I understand Pakistan will recognise Catalan independence.

Catalonia may be the flash-point that demonstrates the moral failure of the EU. The EU should be acting. Instead it is standing by doing nothing useful.
 

SamSpain

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A lot of the so-called violence has turned out to be fake news. Fact that has now been widely reported here in Spain.

We are now in the situation where Puigdemont is dithering so much even after being given a huge amount of time to make his deliberations. He is also haemorrhaging support even from other pro-independència groups. He knows he is on quicksand and is sinking fast, driven only by his personal ambition and belligerence. And yet again @Jason has been shown up.
 

chrisrobin

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what a powerful document to turn a kind into an automaton
how convenient for the king
to have zero other choices
not a single one

fun fact :)
all current reigning kings and queens in Europe are related through the line of George II of Great Britain oh yes and Germany, and Russia and yes uits all been very incestuous at times.

so.... europeans pay 140.287 million EUR every year to subsidize one family
annual-royal-budgets-1.jpg


just can't get the concept...
Nor sure what the graph is supposed to represent but the UK gets a vast amount of cash from the royal family, the royal family generate a lot of cash for the uk and without the royal family the uk would be worse off
 
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Jason

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Nor sure what the graph is supposed to represent but the UK gets a vast amount of cash from the royal family, the royal family generate a lot of cash for the uk and without the royal family the uk would be worse off

The UK's monarchy is far cheaper than just about any presidential system. Additionally the Royal Family do as you point out generate huge sums.
 

chrisrobin

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So now the cat is out of the bag, what will Spain do, what with the Catalonians do - those who wavered wont like being forced into a deal, and any imprisonment, riot police will inflame the situation totally.
The Spanish Government has got it into this mess, a row boiling for years and not addressed, the alternatives are not going to be easy to resolve now.
So who will be the first to recognise the new Catalonian Government?
Will the EU come out and take a firm decision?
 

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There were 70 votes in favour of independence in a parliament of 135. That is a majority. There were 10 against and two abstentions. (How any politician can abstain on this I cannot imagine.)

Do any of us have any idea what happens now?

I really mean this. There's speculation on the web and media, but do any of us truly have the faintest idea what happens now?
 
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The parliaments of Finland, Estonia and Latvia are going to debate recognition of Catalonia, but it seems likely that all three will decide no. There's a possibility that Slovenia may recognise Catalonia, seeing the Catalan UDI as like their own. However I think the overwhelming view is that UK, EU and USA will not recognise Catalonia.

In most respects I find it hard to see what the alternative could be. It is not physically possible to extricate quickly the finances of Catalonia. Independence in a decade is possible; now just isn't.
 
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chrisrobin

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The parliaments of Finland, Estonia and Latvia are going to debate recognition of Catalonia, but it seems likely that all three will decide no. There's a possibility that Slovenia may recognise Catalonia, seeing the Catalan UDI as like their own. However I think the overwhelming view is that UK, EU and USA will not recognise Catalonia.

In most respects I find it hard to see what the alternative could be. It is not physically possible to extricate quickly the finances of Catalonia. Independence in a decade is possible; now just isn't.
The problem for the UK is Scottish related - even faint recognition...
The EU will now pontificate.
The Spanish have removed top police etc so it will be interesting to observe what happens, I would suspect a period of civil disobedience.
If the Spanish come in heavy with police, rubber bullets or the military then the civil war which is possible will become more of a possibility.
Meanwhile my friends down there report all is well outside the cities but already they have noted the decline in visitors.I
 
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There were 70 votes in favour of independence in a parliament of 135. That is a majority. There were 10 against and two abstentions. (How any politician can abstain on this I cannot imagine.)

Do any of us have any idea what happens now?

I really mean this. There's speculation on the web and media, but do any of us truly have the faintest idea what happens now?

Probably put up a wall. Seems to be the answer for problems these days. Old answer, recently made fashionable again like many other things. Lets hope we don't have hardliner radicals develop where terror bombings may begin.

That is probably a scenario which is likely if a wrong move is made.