Catholic Church does not hate gays, period.

[B_Nick8]

I don't know which Catholic church you go to, but they are all homophobic, in the extreme, as far as I'm concerned. It's half their raison d'etre, really.That and abortion. Seriously, what else do they have to rail about?

 

[ubered]

Like Bardak, I live in Spain. I'd like to put accross a view from a majority Catholic country. I think it makes a big difference - when it feels like it's speaking for a majority, an institution gives itself a lot more freedom to speak its mind. I think in countries like the US news doesn't get out about how the Catholic church behaves in its "own backyard". Sorry if it's a bit long, but I think it's important.

The last few years have seen pretty much constant harassment of the government by the church. First we had marches against marriage for people of the same sex, and some pretty insulting, vile comments from the ecclesiastical hierarchy equating homosexuality with bestiality. That was nice. The Catholic church here hates gays, period. No one would even think of claiming otherwise here.

Then we had a great chance for peace in the Basque Country - the terrorist group ETA called a ceasefire and the government began negotiations with them to end the violence that has plagued Spain for over 30 years. The church and other conservative groups organised demonstrations against negotiations with terrorists every weekend, and lo and behold, negotiations failed and the violence continues. Chance for peace scuppered.

Next came the law on the new school subject of Citizenship - which basically teaches people to be nice to each other and accept diversity. The church had a problem with this too - it even appealed against the part of the curriculum on the peaceful resolution of conflicts...

Then came the Law on Historical Memory. The purpose was to deal with human rights abuses during the Civil War and Franco's dictatorship, and rehabiliate the memory of the victims. During this time, the church had total control over education and social affairs. Women could not travel outside Spain or work without their husband's permission. All children had to be given the names of saints. There are pictures of priests making fascist salutes. Needless to say that the church rallied against this law, and did its damndest to make it fail. This November, on the anniversary of Franco's death, yet again we had to watch the spectacle of memorial masses for a fascist dictator in churches across the country.

At the moment its abortion and contraception. Parliament just passed a more liberal abortion law. Before the vote, the church reminded MPs that as Catholics, they must not vote yes. Then it said it would excomunicate all MPs that voted for the law.

However, on issues of social justice it has nothing to say. Silence on the financial crisis, silence on the payouts to banks, silence on the war in Iraq. The main focus is always on what we do with our genitalia. Maybe if priests could have a normal sex life this wouldn't happen. GET THE CHURCH OUT OF OUR BEDROOMS !!

Like others here in Spain, I'm tired of an anti-democratic institution trying to influence an elected body that is given a mandate to pass legislation.

This is the true face of the Catholic church, here in Spain at least. I have no time for it. It can go to hell. No institution has been responsible for so much harm and so much suffering.

 

[funnyguy]

A very noble thought that the Roman Catholic Church does not hate. My question is, "Why , then, did the local parish in NYC refuse to allow my brother to continue to be a lector because he was/is gay? (Even though his wife learned later about his REAL sexual preferences and she then marched with him in the Christopher Street Parade.) He now belongs to Dignity because he could no longer attend mass in his parish. WHY IS THIS?

 

[dreamer20]

Also, people who can't have sex (such as paralyzed or something horrible like that) aren't allowed to get married in the Church because the whole purpose of marriage is to have sex, and consequently, have kids.

The real conundrum is that Mary and Joseph never had sex or had kids yet they were still married according to the church for some random reason....

Which church are you referring to? The Holy Bible (compiled by the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th Century AD) mentions Joseph and Mary had children in several bible verses:Matthew 13:55, Matthew 13:56, John 7:1-10,Galatians 1:19,Matthew 12:46,Luke 8:19,Mark 3:31

I find it hypocritical that a priest is permitted to be a celibate spouse of "the church", yet could deny a paraplegic's right to marry.

 

[jason_els]

In hindesight, I wish I could change the title of my post. It does hold true though...they don't hate us, they simply don't like the action of gay sex.

It seems that EVERYONE aside from littlemanmike seemed to have missed my last paragraph that details why their logic is wrong. I await the day someone has enough guts to bring it to the Theology of the Body Institutes's people that, they are measuring an emotion by physical appearance...which is stupid.

Also, people who can't have sex (such as paralyzed or something horrible like that) aren't allowed to get married in the Church because the whole purpose of marriage is to have sex, and consequently, have kids.

Why would people who plan to or already do engage in sex listen to a bunch of people who are explicitly repressing their sexuality?

The fact is, the people of the Catholic church have no voice in the church itself. They are treated as sheep to be told what to do and how to do it. There is no room in the theological system for feedback or input, no mechanism, no body which represents the opinion of anyone outside the clergy. The Catholic church is very strictly a top-->down organization.

The analogy you present is illogical. It's like saying, "The XYZ church doesn't hate people of color, just their skin color. It's OK to be a member if you bleach your skin to the point it's a certain shade of white." It's ridiculously patronizing to say to anyone that I love you but hate what you do in bed to the point I want to pass laws preventing you from doing it. Even more patronizing is that it's said by an institution which has the ultimate hypocrisy to say such a thing when some of its leaders have been caught committing illegal sex acts with minors and the institution, going as high as the Vatican and the pope himself, actively works to hide what is happening, only admitting that it looked the other way rather than DOING WHAT IS ETHICAL in the first place!

As far as I think any reasonable person should be concerned, the Catholic church has lost even the merest right to ascend a soapbox much less a pulpit when it comes to dispensing dictates on moral behaviors. That there has not been a revolution among the faithful demanding complete and whole reform, that the Vatican has not ceded power to those within the church who tried to put an end to the hiding and the abuse, that it's still business-as-usual tells me that the entire institution is corrupt and hypocritical. I know that there are cardinals and archbishops who would rather see the church wither and dwindle to nothing rather than admit that anything is wrong but as I pointed out earlier, there is no way to remove them without papal authority, no way for the laity to fight back. It's all, "take orders, shut-up, give money, and we'll tell you if you're qualified to get into heaven." Electing (in an election nobody but those who receive donations from those a lot poorer got to vote in), "der Rottweiler," pope proved that serious reform has no hope in the near future.

The Catholic church has done a lot of good in the world as it has done a lot of evil. There are some wonderful members who enrich the lives of others. Sadly, those people have no power in the institution itself and so are marginalized. It's my hope that those people will leave the church and form or join another rather than continue to sponsor and give credence to the current Catholic church and its immoral leadership.

 

[Drifterwood]

I don't have anything to add to the great posts from Ubered and Jason.

I am though fascinated as to what it would take for catholics to leave their institution. I am not sure that if I posted a thread about it that anyone (maybe ManBan) would give a decent answer. Add institutionalised child abuse to the list that Uber gives, and many many more grotesque abuses, but still people abase themselves to kiss the ring. What will it take? It embarasses my sense of humanity.

PS - I think the orthodox church is just as bad.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

Like Bardak, I live in Spain. I'd like to put accross a view from a majority Catholic country. I think it makes a big difference - when it feels like it's speaking for a majority, an institution gives itself a lot more freedom to speak its mind. I think in countries like the US news doesn't get out about how the Catholic church behaves in its "own backyard". Sorry if it's a bit long, but I think it's important.

The last few years have seen pretty much constant harassment of the government by the church. First we had marches against marriage for people of the same sex, and some pretty insulting, vile comments from the ecclesiastical hierarchy equating homosexuality with bestiality. That was nice. The Catholic church here hates gays, period. No one would even think of claiming otherwise here.

Then we had a great chance for peace in the Basque Country - the terrorist group ETA called a ceasefire and the government began negotiations with them to end the violence that has plagued Spain for over 30 years. The church and other conservative groups organised demonstrations against negotiations with terrorists every weekend, and lo and behold, negotiations failed and the violence continues. Chance for peace scuppered.

Next came the law on the new school subject of Citizenship - which basically teaches people to be nice to each other and accept diversity. The church had a problem with this too - it even appealed against the part of the curriculum on the peaceful resolution of conflicts...

Then came the Law on Historical Memory. The purpose was to deal with human rights abuses during the Civil War and Franco's dictatorship, and rehabiliate the memory of the victims. During this time, the church had total control over education and social affairs. Women could not travel outside Spain or work without their husband's permission. All children had to be given the names of saints. There are pictures of priests making fascist salutes. Needless to say that the church rallied against this law, and did its damndest to make it fail. This November, on the anniversary of Franco's death, yet again we had to watch the spectacle of memorial masses for a fascist dictator in churches across the country.

At the moment its abortion and contraception. Parliament just passed a more liberal abortion law. Before the vote, the church reminded MPs that as Catholics, they must not vote yes. Then it said it would excomunicate all MPs that voted for the law.

However, on issues of social justice it has nothing to say. Silence on the financial crisis, silence on the payouts to banks, silence on the war in Iraq. The main focus is always on what we do with our genitalia. Maybe if priests could have a normal sex life this wouldn't happen. GET THE CHURCH OUT OF OUR BEDROOMS !!

Like others here in Spain, I'm tired of an anti-democratic institution trying to influence an elected body that is given a mandate to pass legislation.

This is the true face of the Catholic church, here in Spain at least. I have no time for it. It can go to hell. No institution has been responsible for so much harm and so much suffering.

Ubered,

Everything you say about the catholic church is so true. I want to thank you for the courage to say this in Spain which is such a catholic country.

To add to the metaphor of the bishops of the church being shepherds of the sheep (the lay people), remember this:

"Shepherds first fleece their sheep and then kill them."

 

[ubered]

Ubered,

Everything you say about the catholic church is so true. I want to thank you for the courage to say this in Spain which is such a catholic country.

Doesn't take that much courage. Half of Spain has been battling the Church and its cronies for the best part of a century. We're doing astonishingly well at moving forward and the Church wants to pull us all back into its medieval clutches. We're used to it !! :wink:

 

[cock23]

I am rather dissapointed by this thread. People are either arguing towards one extreme or the other, and no one is seeing each other's points of view.

What I would say for the moment is that the majority of Catholic Clergy (including the Pope) tend to be older and therefore more old fashioned and conservative, and therefore out of touch with modern liberal ideas and the public as a whole. The good news is that in the not too distant future, all these people will die and they will be replaced by new, more progressive clergy. There have already been quite a lot of reforms-for example, services are now held in local languages rather than Latin, there has been greater understanding with Islam and other religions (e.g. Pope John Paul II visited and worshipped in a mosque) and women have far more rights then what they used to. But there is no denying that there is a long way to go, though things are on the right path forward.

And ubered, I don't think what you're saying is true at all. Sure all the examples you gave might be true....but at the same time you've disregarded everything good which the Catholic Church has done, both in history and the present day. Speaking from personal experience, me and my family would not be here today if it wasn't for the Catholic Church. When we were refugees and had nothing, the Catholic Church was the institution which helped us and ensured that we all had at least one meal per day. After the Bosnian War ended and we returned home, I still vividly remember scores of nuns and other clergy running chairty shops and help centres which helped thousands of war victims. If it wasn't for them and other (usually Christian run) charities, the war victims and refugees would have received next to no help, because the government was (and still is) stuffed with greedy corrupt officials who were a lot more interested in stealing international aid money then giving it to the war victims.

That's not to say I havn't struggled with the Catholic Church and my beliefs in it. In fact, I still find it difficult to believe in a religion which has so much homophobic rhetoric and discrimination against women is still widely practised. Like many here, I think it's sick and wrong. But at the same time I can in no way disregard the good it has done, and I will never forget it's kindness and compassion when me and my family couldn't have been in any greater need, and nor can I just disregard all the good things it has done and continues to do.

 

[jason_els]

John XXIII was the best and brightest hope for reform in the Catholic church and even his reforms under Vatican II are being rolled back (including Mass in local language) by Benedict.

Your rescue was likely organized by Catholic Relief Services which is a body of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops. The same body is actively lobbying Congress to drop any abortion coverage in the Health Care bill. The same body oversaw the opposition of, and donated the second largest sum of money, to defeating California's gay marriage law. The same body is doing the same thing again in New Jersey.

I'm thrilled they helped you. I'm not so thrilled that they're seeking to trample on my 14th Amendment right to marry and seeking to restrict the reproductive rights of women and actively lobbying, spending money, to do so. One of the problems with the Catholic church is the failure to recognize that not everyone wants to live under their idea of what is right and wrong. While I respect their decision to believe what they will, as I've said before, when they try and forcibly cram it down my throat and those of others who don't believe what they do, they can go fuck themselves (since little boys seem to be off the menu of late).

 

[cock23]

Yes, but again you see, Benedict is old and will die in the not so distant future. Then all the things he rolled back will get reversed and there will be more reforms, because it is impossible to keep going backwards. And many other old, conservative Catholic farts who are clergy at the moment will also die off, and sooner rather then late rbecause many of them are old men.

I don't understand why Catholics are so bad for lobbying against abortion. I don't believe in abortion in any way, shape or form-does that make me a bad person? The fact that 1.5 million babies in the US are aborted every year-which is a quarter of all total pregnancies-absolutely disgusts me. If you ask me, abortion should be completely banned, and only allowed by medical professionals if the woman's life is in danger.

And as for gay marriage, I don't think there will ever be an agreement between the Church and the public on that issue. That's simply because the Bible states that marriage can only be between a man and a woman, and that the most important aspect of marriage is to naturally have children. So on that basis, an agreement won't be reached anytime soon, and I don't think there will ever be a situation where same sex marriages will occur under the roof of a church. That's not to say that there shouldn't be a civil ceremony/marriage in a non religious building with a non religious service, however.

And also, it was the local Catholic Church as well. They took an active part in handing out money and goods to the war victims, it wasn't only the international organisations.

 

[jason_els]

That was the thinking nearly 50 years ago when Vatican II was held. It hasn't proven prescient. There are plenty of young church members who will turn into old church members and still be just as conservative as the old guys now. People tend to get more conservative as they get older as it is.

Quite a few religions recognize gay unions. Gays are free to marry in these churches where it is also legal. As US law has it now, a clergyperson is free to deny a church marriage to any couple the church doesn't approve of. That couple is free to go to another church or have a civil ceremony. So don't think all churches don't approve of gay marriage.

As to the abortion issue, I respect your position as a private citizen with a vote. I do not respect a religious organization with tax-exempt status lobbying the government to change laws in a country with a strict demarcation line between church and state. They can't have it both ways. Either be a church and shepherd souls or be a lobbying group seeking to change policy for ALL the public, not just Catholics. Do that and I say start paying taxes there sister. Clergy are free to vote here as any other citizen. Their church should not.

 

[Drifterwood]

Clearly separating church and state is easier than separating the spiritual from the physical. As someone else said, Priests, get the fuck out of my bedroom you creepy f'ing pervs. I think that they just can't be happy with the lack of rules laid down by the big J in the New T. Their clear lack of acceptance of shepherding our spiritual lives as being their simple role drives me round the bend and back again. Sorry for the rant.

Oh and Cock, Hitler had some good roads built, but it's not much of a counter argument.

 

[joyboytoy79]

Yes, but again you see, Benedict is old and will die in the not so distant future. Then all the things he rolled back will get reversed and there will be more reforms, because it is impossible to keep going backwards. And many other old, conservative Catholic farts who are clergy at the moment will also die off, and sooner rather then late rbecause many of them are old men.

As Jason said, people tend toward more conservative ideologies as they age. Most of our current NeoCons in the US were at one time hippies and flower children of the 60s. The Catholic Church, as an organization, reveres aged wisdom. Aged wisdom. The Church, not the people who comprise it, sees youth as a disadvantage. This is unlikely to change.

I don't understand why Catholics are so bad for lobbying against abortion. I don't believe in abortion in any way, shape or form-does that make me a bad person? The fact that 1.5 million babies in the US are aborted every year-which is a quarter of all total pregnancies-absolutely disgusts me. If you ask me, abortion should be completely banned, and only allowed by medical professionals if the woman's life is in danger.

I do understand. A) the Catholic church is solely run by men. Men do not have babies. Men will never be faced with the responsibility of considering an abortion. This is an issue that we as men are ill equipped to address, and yet, men continue to try to impose rules about it on women. B) Lobbying is a political action. When churches lobby, they are, in fact, advocating legal codification of moral standards. If our morals are legislated for us, and enforced by the state, what use have we, really, for a church?

Now, on to your figures. They're flawed. The CDC compiles abortion statistics. The year 2005 is the most recent data. This is the report from 2005. How many abortions were reported? 850,151. That's nearly half of the figure you quoted. For every 1,000 live births, there were 233 abortions. 233/1000*100 is 23.3%. Only, that's flawed math. 1,000 live births does not equal 1000 pregnancies... No, the total number of pregnancies would include the 233 abortions, so really, the math should be 233/1233*100 which is 18.9%. But wait! It gets better! 15% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage (God sure does kill a lot of babies), and that needs to be included in the abortion figure, don't you think? 233/1383*100= 16.8% of all pregnancies in 2005 ended in abortion. That's barely more than the percentage that ended in God induced miscarriage. Why does the Catholic church leave all of that out when they print their "abortion is murder" brochures?

And as for gay marriage, I don't think there will ever be an agreement between the Church and the public on that issue. That's simply because the Bible states that marriage can only be between a man and a woman, and that the most important aspect of marriage is to naturally have children. So on that basis, an agreement won't be reached anytime soon, and I don't think there will ever be a situation where same sex marriages will occur under the roof of a church. That's not to say that there shouldn't be a civil ceremony/marriage in a non religious building with a non religious service, however.

Really, the bible says a shitload of things about marriage that we simply do not follow. Even the Catholic Church doesn't follow most of what the bible says about marriage. If you want references to marriage law espoused in the bible and ignored by the Church, simply ask. I will be more than happy to oblige. Picking on gay marriage because the bible doesn't say it's allowed is hypocrisy. I can't really reconcile it any other way.

And also, it was the local Catholic Church as well. They took an active part in handing out money and goods to the war victims, it wasn't only the international organisations.

The Church does some good things, yes. It spends far greater effort and resources on oppression of free will, however. To me, that's unacceptable.

 

[Drifterwood]

It's all about power.

And of course the great irony is that churches become the very things that I thought Jesus had wished to overturn.

 

[ZOS23xy]

It's all about power.

And of course the great irony is that churches become the very things that I thought Jesus had wished to overturn.

You mean intolerance. And the hypocritical views. And the nagging "God choose me, so I am infallible" criteria. The church is still in the middle ages, looking out...and more often than not, looking back.

 

[ubered]

The Catholic Church has no place imposing its views on society. As Jason pointed out, the Catholic Church is totally undemocratic in its inner workings, with members having no say in its structure or how it's run. We now (thankfully) have democratic institutions that create the laws by which we live. This is about social pacts, reality is now what we make it and not what the Catholic Chururch or any other institution thinks we should ALL do.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if this institution's moral prohibitions were only applied to the Catholic faithful. But they have the arrogance to think that it's applicable to all of us. Abortion is a fine example - no free will or choice possible.

And once they've got you, they've got you. Try and get yourself off the Church legers as a registered Catholic here in Spain, it's now completely impossible - flouting every data protection law we have.

 

[D_Smidley Smelliepits]

And once they've got you, they've got you. Try and get yourself off the Church legers as a registered Catholic here in Spain, it's now completely impossible - flouting every data protection law we have.

I'm still trying...