Trust me, tallpaguy...it'll never address your concerns. I recently presented this to our beloved hermaphrodite and as we all know, nothing ever came of it. See #142. Trinity has nothing of substance which is obvious to anything on this globe with neurons & electrons.
CBS Poll: Majority of Americans Want Republicans to Keep Fighting HealthCare Bill
- Thread starter Trinity
- Start date
Trust me, tallpaguy...it'll never address your concerns. I recently presented this to our beloved hermaphrodite and as we all know, nothing ever came of it. See #142. Trinity has nothing of substance which is obvious to anything on this globe with neurons & electrons.
Perhaps Obama should ask President Clinton who turned a deficit into a surplus. Oops...then that would only reinforce the growing sentiment that people voted in the wrong Democrat candidate. Obama has no idea what he's doing and has had to beg Clinton to bail him out everytime he was going down. Obama is clearly forcing through bad policy and budgets which is losing support of the People.
The only thing people will see when they review your posts is the fact that you have yet to post a Democrat with a plan to address the questions you challenged to the Republicans. You lack substance.
Mr. Snakey
Expert Member
The majority of Americans ( right and left) are against this. What they call a health care bill is socialized medicine. We live in a democracy. Now we are having socialism shoved down our throats. The people do not want this. The only ones who will benefit from this are the insurance company's. More people will be denied health care than before. This is not the answer to the problem.
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As always people will froth at the mouth like rabid dogs and debates on a forum such as this one will make absolutely no difference.
What we in essence got was definitely not a good bill in any sense of the word. Yet, the problem is that we as a country have been so bought and paid for by private business interests that what we have had to do in more recent decades is to get something through and then modify it into something totally different from what it started to be.
Medicare passed by L.B.J. in the 1960's is a perfect example of this. When it came out and was originally passed it was absolute complete and total "garbage" but over time it was amended and repaired repeatedly until it at least showed some evidence that it worked.
In the end and in about ten years we will have a single pay plan and it will work.
There are numerous single pay plans worldwide. Some of these plans are better than others and some have some horrific delays on surgical procedures not deemed to be "urgent". France that country that has at times not always been our best friend has one of the best. Canada and the U.K. are not quite as good.
For routine care and maintenance it appears that all are better than what we currently have.
Right now as this is being written there are people losing their lives right and left because insurance companies are routinely denying care.
When my Mother lost her life in 2001 I had initially contacted a Southern California Law Firm over the denial of care that she had experienced and had cost her her life. The Law Firm I contacted at that time had 52 other cases pending against that same carrier for doing exactly the same thing. That law firm had in fact as a matter of record prevailed in over 200 cases against this same carrier for doing the same thing.
As part of the settlement the following things would be a requirement. 1.) There would be a "gag order" preventing me from talking about or blaming the carrier for anything and I would have to in writing absolve them of any "wrong doing". 2.) The case would take from 3-5 years in the Courts and the Company would drag it's feet endlessly and offer crap to get me to walk away.
Now, the real joy of this is that this same insurance carrier would in essence add the cost of my Mother's settlement to the premiums of others the following year and they would simply make the taking of my Mother's life a "cost of doing business".
The enemy is not the Democratic or Republican Party it is the trillion dollar per year insurance industry which has placed profits far ahead of patient care or welfare.
Current estimates are that cumulatively the medical insurance industry spent well over 12 Billion dollars in advertising nationwide to try and buy the defeat of any reform at all and any controls, regulation, or most importantly "audits" of what they were doing.
Virtually any time an industry has been "deregulated" it has ended up a major loss for the consumer.
Right now, there are numerous industries which need to be "re-regulated" and come under close "auditing" for the good of the American People. I would also include Banking and Big Oil in this same group of overpaid, underworked, "slimeballs" as well.
The price of oil per barrel is dropping and the price of fuel is rising and it is not taxes on our fuel that is doing it. Ask your local retailer and you will hear a bunch of excuses.
There are many Americans who by virtue of good health and experience are very satisfied with their medical coverage, it's cost and it's quality. There are also many Americans who have found that they have paid for decades for a service that they are no longer receiving and the provider of this service simply stonewalls them and laughs in their faces.
I have personally been through absolute hell with medical insurance providers denying coverage. I can cite example after example because my family and I have had these experiences.
Some of our more vocal friends seem to think that many of us are making all of this up. I only wish that we were.
I think that what we haver right now is total CRAP, but, it will be a start and will be revised until it has value.
What we in essence got was definitely not a good bill in any sense of the word. Yet, the problem is that we as a country have been so bought and paid for by private business interests that what we have had to do in more recent decades is to get something through and then modify it into something totally different from what it started to be.
Medicare passed by L.B.J. in the 1960's is a perfect example of this. When it came out and was originally passed it was absolute complete and total "garbage" but over time it was amended and repaired repeatedly until it at least showed some evidence that it worked.
In the end and in about ten years we will have a single pay plan and it will work.
There are numerous single pay plans worldwide. Some of these plans are better than others and some have some horrific delays on surgical procedures not deemed to be "urgent". France that country that has at times not always been our best friend has one of the best. Canada and the U.K. are not quite as good.
For routine care and maintenance it appears that all are better than what we currently have.
Right now as this is being written there are people losing their lives right and left because insurance companies are routinely denying care.
When my Mother lost her life in 2001 I had initially contacted a Southern California Law Firm over the denial of care that she had experienced and had cost her her life. The Law Firm I contacted at that time had 52 other cases pending against that same carrier for doing exactly the same thing. That law firm had in fact as a matter of record prevailed in over 200 cases against this same carrier for doing the same thing.
As part of the settlement the following things would be a requirement. 1.) There would be a "gag order" preventing me from talking about or blaming the carrier for anything and I would have to in writing absolve them of any "wrong doing". 2.) The case would take from 3-5 years in the Courts and the Company would drag it's feet endlessly and offer crap to get me to walk away.
Now, the real joy of this is that this same insurance carrier would in essence add the cost of my Mother's settlement to the premiums of others the following year and they would simply make the taking of my Mother's life a "cost of doing business".
The enemy is not the Democratic or Republican Party it is the trillion dollar per year insurance industry which has placed profits far ahead of patient care or welfare.
Current estimates are that cumulatively the medical insurance industry spent well over 12 Billion dollars in advertising nationwide to try and buy the defeat of any reform at all and any controls, regulation, or most importantly "audits" of what they were doing.
Virtually any time an industry has been "deregulated" it has ended up a major loss for the consumer.
Right now, there are numerous industries which need to be "re-regulated" and come under close "auditing" for the good of the American People. I would also include Banking and Big Oil in this same group of overpaid, underworked, "slimeballs" as well.
The price of oil per barrel is dropping and the price of fuel is rising and it is not taxes on our fuel that is doing it. Ask your local retailer and you will hear a bunch of excuses.
There are many Americans who by virtue of good health and experience are very satisfied with their medical coverage, it's cost and it's quality. There are also many Americans who have found that they have paid for decades for a service that they are no longer receiving and the provider of this service simply stonewalls them and laughs in their faces.
I have personally been through absolute hell with medical insurance providers denying coverage. I can cite example after example because my family and I have had these experiences.
Some of our more vocal friends seem to think that many of us are making all of this up. I only wish that we were.
I think that what we haver right now is total CRAP, but, it will be a start and will be revised until it has value.
B_talltpaguy
Experimental Member
I'm really interested to know more about these 'socialist' changes you're talking about.
So, can you please post the definition of the word 'socialism' as it applies to your post?
Then, can you please explain point by point which US government programs it is that have been changed over the past 14 months to the point that they are now widely considered 'socialist' by experts, but were not considered 'socialist' beforehand.
Thank you!
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I agree with Tampa Guy on this one. I would be interested in hearing the rhetoric in this one.
Historically many years ago people learned to take control away from the people by labeling and "demonizing" an enemy. This is traditionally how a small but vocal group takes over a majority.
What is being done here is to make a "smoke screen" and again this is a time honored tradition.
For the majority of Americans desiring radical changes in health care the problems have reached "melt-down" levels.
Under the definition many are applying to "socialized medicine" we have some other things that would fit. Medicare received by the aged is by the broadest of definition "socialized medicine" and it was labeled exactly that when it was also passed in the 1960's. What are state funded medicaid programs for the poor and indigent? These programs are medical care paid for by tax dollars and funded by various government offices. These would under the most broad of definitions also qualify as "socialized medicine" simply because it is medical care paid for by the government.
Right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 in order to get Americans to fight a War the Japanese people were demonized on a level that was horrific. American people of Japanese ancestry were beaten in the streets and eventually placed in Concentration Camps after their homes and businesses were confiscated.
Major Insurance Corporations are spending billions of your dollars that you have paid to them in health care premiums not on care for their policyholders, but instead on publicity to defeat the thing they fear most and that is a combination of audits and regulation where they could be held accountable for their actions.
Currently, we already have socialized medicine, and the form we now have is not working at all efficiently because it is laden with problems and it is handled from too many different places.
In the next group of elections we are going to see some very desperate people make some really fatal political errors. California currently has two active candidates for Governor opposing the incumbent. One conservative is claiming to have powers which in fact the Governor of the State of California does not have. He is making promises his power as Governor will not let him fulfill. Another conservative candidate is making similar claims. They have had a supposedly conservative Governor in office and he has done nothing but make a bigger mess.
Much as some claim the new healthcare bill good or bad will be drowned in the Court System so it will be for many of the claims of these new ultra conservative candidates as well.
Solcialized Medicine by basic definition is a fact in many countries which are not in any manner Socialist. The U.K. is a Constitutional Monarchy and operates with the Prime Minister basically as the equivalent of the U.S. President and the Queen of England in essence is in fact little more tan a Figure Head. Canada is not a Socialist Government and it also operates under what by many is defined as "socialized medicine".
All the countires who have gone this route have done so because private business in the end failed to provide health care for the masses and failed miserably. The only difference is that they came to their senses more quickly and realized that there are places where a profit making corporation cannot be trusted to place the welfare of the citizens of the country ahead of corporate profits.
I am absolutely in favor of the free enterprise system. However, when an industry grabs increasing power and becomes abusive to the people it is supposed to serve, some steps have to be taken. It is time we make changes.
Right now we have a new proposed system already designed for failure. It is designed for failure simply because the first ones that need to be enrolled in it are the United States Congress and the United States Senate. I can guarantee you that if these idiots had to be under a health care system it will work. Let them see the problems first hand and they will then fix it when it is their wife, son or daughter that is negatively impacted by a bad decision.
Want it or not change is coming. What we need to do is to support the change and take control of that change modifying it into something good for all instead of wasting our time and efforts fighting change and rewarding an industry which has in the past few decades become the opposition of many American people.
Historically many years ago people learned to take control away from the people by labeling and "demonizing" an enemy. This is traditionally how a small but vocal group takes over a majority.
What is being done here is to make a "smoke screen" and again this is a time honored tradition.
For the majority of Americans desiring radical changes in health care the problems have reached "melt-down" levels.
Under the definition many are applying to "socialized medicine" we have some other things that would fit. Medicare received by the aged is by the broadest of definition "socialized medicine" and it was labeled exactly that when it was also passed in the 1960's. What are state funded medicaid programs for the poor and indigent? These programs are medical care paid for by tax dollars and funded by various government offices. These would under the most broad of definitions also qualify as "socialized medicine" simply because it is medical care paid for by the government.
Right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 in order to get Americans to fight a War the Japanese people were demonized on a level that was horrific. American people of Japanese ancestry were beaten in the streets and eventually placed in Concentration Camps after their homes and businesses were confiscated.
Major Insurance Corporations are spending billions of your dollars that you have paid to them in health care premiums not on care for their policyholders, but instead on publicity to defeat the thing they fear most and that is a combination of audits and regulation where they could be held accountable for their actions.
Currently, we already have socialized medicine, and the form we now have is not working at all efficiently because it is laden with problems and it is handled from too many different places.
In the next group of elections we are going to see some very desperate people make some really fatal political errors. California currently has two active candidates for Governor opposing the incumbent. One conservative is claiming to have powers which in fact the Governor of the State of California does not have. He is making promises his power as Governor will not let him fulfill. Another conservative candidate is making similar claims. They have had a supposedly conservative Governor in office and he has done nothing but make a bigger mess.
Much as some claim the new healthcare bill good or bad will be drowned in the Court System so it will be for many of the claims of these new ultra conservative candidates as well.
Solcialized Medicine by basic definition is a fact in many countries which are not in any manner Socialist. The U.K. is a Constitutional Monarchy and operates with the Prime Minister basically as the equivalent of the U.S. President and the Queen of England in essence is in fact little more tan a Figure Head. Canada is not a Socialist Government and it also operates under what by many is defined as "socialized medicine".
All the countires who have gone this route have done so because private business in the end failed to provide health care for the masses and failed miserably. The only difference is that they came to their senses more quickly and realized that there are places where a profit making corporation cannot be trusted to place the welfare of the citizens of the country ahead of corporate profits.
I am absolutely in favor of the free enterprise system. However, when an industry grabs increasing power and becomes abusive to the people it is supposed to serve, some steps have to be taken. It is time we make changes.
Right now we have a new proposed system already designed for failure. It is designed for failure simply because the first ones that need to be enrolled in it are the United States Congress and the United States Senate. I can guarantee you that if these idiots had to be under a health care system it will work. Let them see the problems first hand and they will then fix it when it is their wife, son or daughter that is negatively impacted by a bad decision.
Want it or not change is coming. What we need to do is to support the change and take control of that change modifying it into something good for all instead of wasting our time and efforts fighting change and rewarding an industry which has in the past few decades become the opposition of many American people.
Make no mistake, you are 100% correct here. I do NOT think the insurance companies are against EVERYONE having to buy health care, they just didn't want the public option because it would have been competition. If everyone thinks that is being done with the people's interest in mind, you are wrong.
The insurance companies as well as the pharmaceutical companies will benefit the most, more then the american people.
B_VinylBoy
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There are still proponents of the bill that do help out the consumer, even if it's not the most progressive one out there that gives people everything they ever dreamed of. In the end, it's better to get something than nothing at all.
That is the point. If you are waiting for the perfect bill it's not gonna happen. Failure to compromise and to except nothing less than your ideal is what doomed HillaryCare and it took another 20 years before it was tried again. That's why the opponents wanted so BAD to kill it. They knew if they could succeed they would have carte blanche for another 20 years.
B_talltpaguy
Experimental Member
Dems should have figured out last year that the Reps only exist to poison the well, ignored them full stop and passed whatever law they could cobble together in their own caucus. Instead, they passed a Republican law that had no Republican support.
The reason I'm fine with things as they were passed is because there ARE vitally important reforms in the new law, and the things that time proves won't work as well will be tweaked. (namely the lack of price regulation)
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StormfrontFL
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When did you get your insurance license? What's that? You don't have one. Then STFU!! As a licensed insurance agent I can attest that the insurance companies aren't thrilled with this change. Yes they will have more policyholders but they will also be forced to pay more claims so this will result in lower profits for their shareholders as well as having to apply more of the premiums to care and not to operating expenses.
And that's another reason they fought so hard. They know government programs grow and become more popular as they are tweaked and perfected. You see what happened to King George when he thought ,erroneously, he had the momentum to go in and gut Social Security. He was shut down quite effectively.
B_RedDude
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Oh, the poor, poor things. Tough shit! Other industries (and their employees) have had to suck up change, and those have had a lot less bearing on the basic overall well-being of the citizenry.
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B_talltpaguy
Experimental Member
Back in the day rightwing politicians who fought against Social Security and later on Medicare/Medicaid basically killed their political careers by railing against these popular 'safety net' programs.
saying you are a licensed insurance agent is like saying you have the IQ of an ant. it means shit...if they have to payout more, they will just start charging more
Well, how about this poll:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/29/rel6a.pdf
Despite being written by GOP pollster Fank Luntz, it shows that a majority of Americans now favor keeping the bill as is or changing it to INCREASE government involvement.
Suck on that.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/29/rel6a.pdf
Despite being written by GOP pollster Fank Luntz, it shows that a majority of Americans now favor keeping the bill as is or changing it to INCREASE government involvement.
Suck on that.
Yep it's not called the Third Rail of Politics for nothing, touch those and you're dead. And the Republicans and their plutocrat supporters do NOT want another untouchable government program except law and order since we need that to protect our wealth.
midlifebear
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By all means it needs refining to increase public involvement. And I am unanimous in that! :smile:
very well said, but the public officials on both sides arent involving the public and doing what is right for the american people