Censorship is here folks - watch your words.

[simcha]

This holds true for when you're talking, but whenever you are writing something which is going to be around on the internet forever, you'd better take some time to consider what it is you want to say before you click the submit button.

If you're in a private chat with somebody, and say something in anger, which you later regret, you can apologize to that person, but this doesn't really work on message sites like this.

This is the reason why I'd prefer if we could refrain from posting things which can be interpreted to be disrespectful of others.

You are an arrogant cretin. So YOU get to decide on what is respectful and what isn't, eh? This sounds very "Big Brotherish" to me.

 

[B_Nick4444]

You are an arrogant cretin.

I believe something like this will be edited out, if I understand correctly ...

 

[simcha]

I believe something like this will be edited out, if I understand correctly ...

Oh, yes, gee, that's right. I should have said something like:

"Would you like tea with your crumpets, Jet? I'm so very sorry and I have to disagree with your opinion of your editting on other members' posts. It makes it seem like you know more than they do about what they mean to say. You might come across as arrogant, dare I say? Sugar? Would you like one lump or two?"

 

[mindseye]

You're overreacting, Jason.

The hypothetical situation you've described involves someone who was banned for linking to that other site. That situation remains entirely hypothetical: no one has been banned, temp-banned, warned, reprimanded, or faced any other form of disciplinary action for having linked there; in every case we've removed the links but took no further action.

I think that's a fair way of honoring Rob_E's request, and believe that the draconian strawman you've posted isn't supported by the actual actions we've taken when people have linked to that site.

 

[8.5x6]

Is there anything that can be said here that is as offensive as censorship?

I cannot believe I find myself saying this, but I wholeheartedly agree. I try to stay at arms length from these kinds of debates, because I can empathize with moderators who have a busy site to patrol... but I think that editing someone's words is incredibly, incredibly offensive. More so than any insult.

To be honest, I hold freedom of speech to be absolute, regardless of what is said... if you don't like what someone is saying, don't listen. But they have a right to say whatever they want.

But, to each their own interpretation of lex fori, I suppose. :frown1:

This has basically removed any possibility of becoming a Gold Member or contributing financially, as far as I'm concerned.

That, and banned individuals who are still on this site under different user names who make no effort to hide who they are in clear violation of ToS. But that's another rant for another time, and I apologize.

Back to my quiet little corner.

 

[2322]

What I did was to edit out insults which weren't necessary for the message in itself. It didn't change the point being made in the post.

The point of telling anyone to go fuck themselves is to let the person know that you do not begin to respect that person or the opinions of that person. It conveys extreme dislike in a raw, direct manner leaving no room to parse any other meaning. So yes, you did change one of the points made in the post.

Agreed, LPSG is a adult site and we're mature enough to handle "adult words", but we're also mature enough to treat other people with respect.

We are also mature enough to treat each other with disrespect and accept the consequences of what we receive, in return from those we have insulted, for doing so.

To clarify, let me give you an example of what I am talking about, OK.

Pretend that I've had an affair with Gillette and I am posting about it on the site.

Example 1 : We fucked and her cunt was hot and tight.
This would be OK

Example 2 : When we met she turned out to be a fucking cunt, so I took off.
This would NOT be OK, as this is a obvious insult of Gillette - harrassment of another member.

In your opinion. Most people would say harassment as it has been enforced here at LPSG, is following people from thread to thread, baiting and attacking them personally without provocation. Harassment implies a pattern of behavior over time.

Trust me, I am no language police and I am not trying to make LPSG have the atmosphere of a Sunday school. Far from it.

It's difficult to trust someone who would change the wording of another person's post to suit himself. You may say you're, "no language police," but you have acted not only as police, but judge, jury, and executioner. You saw an alleged infraction (police), decided that action was needed (judge), decided it needed to be changed (jury), and made that change (executioner).

For me it's about showing respect for other people.

If that is the case then what do you say to the person whom you have robbed of the words he said? How are you showing respect for him?

If you disagree with what somebody has posted, say so, and explain why you don't agree with what's been said, but do it without resorting to name calling and personal insults.
Your argument isn't made stronger by personal insults and the like, rather the opposite.

Then what prevented you from simply saying you disagreed with what was said and issue a warning? Your words were not insulting, but your action (as you can see from the reaction) definitely was insulting.

At times when feelings run high it might even be a good idea to refrain from posting a response to what has upset you, and stop and have a good think about how you best can get your own point of view across when you eventually do respond.

I agree completely.

I hope this clarifies why I edited those posts and that you can all agree with me that keeping a respectful tone in our posts make LPSG a more welcoming and enjoyable site.

To be welcome, someone must feel as though they will be accepted for whom they are and the ideas they espouse. If we feel we must watch everything we say for fear of offense, then we are not truly welcome.

This holds true for when you're talking, but whenever you are writing something which is going to be around on the internet forever, you'd better take some time to consider what it is you want to say before you click the submit button.

You can't prevent idiots from being idiots. Idiots even have a right to be idiots. People succeed or fail by how they present themselves. I think none of us are so dull that we cannot judge for ourselves who is to be respected and who is to be dismissed. There is always wheat and chaff, but always far more chaff than wheat. Let us winnow for ourselves.

If you're in a private chat with somebody, and say something in anger, which you later regret, you can apologize to that person, but this doesn't really work on message sites like this.

I think it does. You simply post a retraction or an apology in the thread. I've done it.

This is the reason why I'd prefer if we could refrain from posting things which can be interpreted to be disrespectful of others.

As has been pointed out by sharper minds than mine, how are you going to determine this? We can't even agree on what words are insulting and disrespectful. Your country just went through the Mohamed cartoon controversy. Some Muslims were offended because the cartoons were disrespectful of their religion. Westerners were offended because they believed their right to free speech was being infringed by the Muslims.

Some of the most brilliant men and women of history have spoken long and passionately about the dangers of censorship, even censorship supposedly designed for the good of all. I don't know about you, but when I'm challenged by minds like Rushdie, Jefferson, Franklin, Mill, Einstein, Mencken, Votaire, Camus, Emerson, Chomsky, De Tocqueville, Solzhenitsyn, Bacon, and both Adamses, I consider their beliefs extremely carefully. All of them disagree with you.

I'm sorry, but I fail to understand why a adult site about the penis can't demand that it's members are respectful towards eachother in their posts.

You can demand anything you like, the problem is in the enforcement. We already have ignore and report buttons, and rules about harassment and trolling. That's about as far as you can go without censoring certain words entirely. Even then, a well-spoken person can skewer, roast, and eat alive another person without using censored words. People insult other people all the time and have since Abel called Cain, "ye coarse hairy beaste!"

 

[2322]

Are you suggesting that if a site has a adult theme, anything goes, regardless ?

The term, "adult," doesn't just imply sexual themes. It implies that it's a large free-for-all of ideas and thoughts. Some of those ideas will offend other people. Adults don't have mommies whom they can run to and whine, "He's calling me names!!" You don't want to read it, ignore it. You want to insult someone, be prepared to be insulted back. Part of being an adult is accepting that not everyone is going love you and dealing with it.

I don't understand how it can be so difficult to act respectfully. It makes me wonder how those who find it so difficult manage to hold down a job, unless it's completely cut off from interaction with other people.

Why do so many of you feel the need to call others stuff ? It doesn't seem healthy to me.

You are approaching this from an entirely subjective position; "I don't," "seem...to me." In your mind you're right. Many other people agree with you. Plenty of others do not. The difference is that no matter how right you think your argument is, others will disagree and if you're adult about it, you'll understand that you have to respect that.

Mem is asking if I'm striving for a kinder and gentler LPSG and the question in itself surprises me.
For me it's only natural that a support group is welcoming, supportive, friendly and gentle.
Disagreeing with somebody is fine and natural, but I fail to see how telling somebody he/she is a fucking idiot can be considered supportive.

It doesn't mean we have to love everybody, but we do need to be able to get along.

Spoken like a true Dane. Scandinavian cultures always rank among the most nurturing and feminine (in the sociological sense) societies in the world. The UK, Australia, and the US are ranked among the most (Japan ranks highest) masculine societies in the world. We like a good blow out from time to time. Our cultural mindsets are quite different despite Scandinavian and Anglo Saxon socieites being highly westernized.

Like I explained in a earlier post, what I edited out was "go fuck yourself". It didn't change the meaning of the post in any way.
I edited out what I considered to be harrassment against another member, which according to LPSG isn't allowed.

I'm surprised you'd rather pay to join a site where people insult eachother instead of support eachother.

That isn't all that goes on. I remember your beautiful post in the Trust Between Men thread. People feel supported when they feel accepted. They feel accepted when they're free to say what they wish. If it's worth reading, what they say will be appreciated and others will defend the person. If it's not worth reading then it will be ignored. If it's pure shit, then the other members will dismember the offender by a variety of means, including insults. Posters who do nothing but stir the pot and create conflict are trolls. There are already rules against that.

Why do you feel that you have to insult somebody though ?
Can't you just argue your case constructively without any name calling or intentional insults of another person?

Because sometimes people need insulting to be brought down a peg and so make no mistake about where you stand. I've insulted plenty of people here but I don't do it gratuitiuosly and I won't do it unless it's auxillary to a greater point. Emotional expression is just as valuable to us as humans as intellectual expression. Not all social intercourse is conducted on an intellectual plane. "Support" is an emotional need, not an intellectual one. By definition, LPSG acknowledges that emotional content is the main purpose of the site. If it was only intellectual then we'd all be Vulcans.

Like I stated earlier, it's not the words in themselves which I object to.
If it's a matter of intentional insults, the wording will not matter. It will still be against our ToS as it falls under harrassment of other members.

Please, try and be supportive instead. After all, we are a support group.

It is the words! Words you saw and removed as surely as if you took them out of the mouth of the person speaking them. To say that it is not the words when you've gone so far as to censor them, is disingenuous and unbelivable.

You cannot make people say and think nice things even in Disneyland or the Vatican. You haven't lived until you've exclaimed, "Holy shit!," in the Sistine Chapel and marveled at how much your words echo when there aren't many people in there and if you've seen the Sistine Chapel since its restoration, then you know it's highly worthy of a very loud, "Holy shit!"

Same is true with people. In our interactions in society there will be saints and murderers, the good, the bad, and the ugly. If we are to support each other we also have to know when it's appropriate to tell other people they're wrong and let them know when they've hurt us by hurting them back. In the best of all possible worlds, this wouldn't be necessary. As this is not the best of all possible worlds, then, sadly, it is.

Honesty and openess is vital to the mission of LPSG. I have found the site remarkably supportive despite all the assholes who pop-up here and there. Like any other responsible adult, I deal with them and move on. LPSG would be worth nothing if any of us felt there were things we could not discuss.

Think back to some of the threads about incest or rape. There have been some frightening confessions on this site. Some of those confessions have been met with understanding, other times met with hatred and venom. I'd like to believe that the more understanding posts were the best ones, but I also know that is just my opinion, which will be judged by its own value as others find it just as the opinions of the insulters will be judged by their value. We are not fools, we are not children. Let us think and act and speak for ourselves just as you would not want to be censored in your thoughts, do not have us be censored in ours or you may quickly find few thoughts worth considering anywhere on this site.

[quote=jumbo747jet;1620054]This is my last response in this thread today as I feel I have explained my standpoint and don't think I can clarify more than I already have.[/quote]

I hope this was a misspeak because I agree 100% with Manly. Right now you're on the defensive, explaining rather than discussing. We need to you to know you understand how important this is, why it is important, and the questionable wisdom of censoring anything that isn't illegal, or even enforcing it in a fair manner.

 

[2322]

You're overreacting, Jason.

The hypothetical situation you've described involves someone who was banned for linking to that other site. That situation remains entirely hypothetical: no one has been banned, temp-banned, warned, reprimanded, or faced any other form of disciplinary action for having linked there; in every case we've removed the links but took no further action.

I think that's a fair way of honoring Rob_E's request, and believe that the draconian strawman you've posted isn't supported by the actual actions we've taken when people have linked to that site.

I agree. It hasn't yet. The enforcement has been very passive. It does, however, leave the door open and I think that it's best to honor Rob_E's demand by making it completely clear. Iffy rules don't work well in any organized social situation.

 

[kalipygian]

The folks running things here have certainly been doing a great deal lately to increase the viability of the other site. Driving away some of most senior and respected posters, and censoring those who remain.

 

[rawbone8]

Are you suggesting that if a site has a adult theme, anything goes, regardless ?

The term, "adult," doesn't just imply sexual themes. It implies that it's a large free-for-all of ideas and thoughts. Some of those ideas will offend other people. Adults don't have mommies whom they can run to and whine, "He's calling me names!!" You don't want to read it, ignore it. You want to insult someone, be prepared to be insulted back. Part of being an adult is accepting that not everyone is going love you and dealing with it.

I don't understand how it can be so difficult to act respectfully. It makes me wonder how those who find it so difficult manage to hold down a job, unless it's completely cut off from interaction with other people.
Why do so many of you feel the need to call others stuff ? It doesn't seem healthy to me.

You are approaching this from an entirely subjective position; "I don't," "seem...to me." In your mind you're right. Many other people agree with you. Plenty of others do not. The difference is that no matter how right you think your argument is, others will disagree and if you're adult about it, you'll understand that you have to respect that.

Mem is asking if I'm striving for a kinder and gentler LPSG and the question in itself surprises me.
For me it's only natural that a support group is welcoming, supportive, friendly and gentle.
Disagreeing with somebody is fine and natural, but I fail to see how telling somebody he/she is a fucking idiot can be considered supportive.
It doesn't mean we have to love everybody, but we do need to be able to get along.

Spoken like a true Dane. Scandinavian cultures always rank among the most nurturing and feminine (in the sociological sense) societies in the world. The UK, Australia, and the US are ranked among the most (Japan ranks highest) masculine societies in the world. We like a good blow out from time to time. Our cultural mindsets are quite different despite Scandinavian and Anglo Saxon socieites being highly westernized.

Like I explained in a earlier post, what I edited out was "go fuck yourself". It didn't change the meaning of the post in any way.
I edited out what I considered to be harrassment against another member, which according to LPSG isn't allowed.
I'm surprised you'd rather pay to join a site where people insult eachother instead of support eachother.

That isn't all that goes on. I remember your beautiful post in the Trust Between Men thread. People feel supported when they feel accepted. They feel accepted when they're free to say what they wish. If it's worth reading, what they say will be appreciated and others will defend the person. If it's not worth reading then it will be ignored. If it's pure shit, then the other members will dismember the offender by a variety of means, including insults. Posters who do nothing but stir the pot and create conflict are trolls. There are already rules against that.

Why do you feel that you have to insult somebody though ?
Can't you just argue your case constructively without any name calling or intentional insults of another person?
Because sometimes people need insulting to be brought down a peg and so make no mistake about where you stand. I've insulted plenty of people here but I don't do it gratuitiuosly and I won't do it unless it's auxillary to a greater point. Emotional expression is just as valuable to us as humans as intellectual expression. Not all social intercourse is conducted on an intellectual plane. "Support" is an emotional need, not an intellectual one. By definition, LPSG acknowledges that emotional content is the main purpose of the site. If it was only intellectual then we'd all be Vulcans.

Like I stated earlier, it's not the words in themselves which I object to.
If it's a matter of intentional insults, the wording will not matter. It will still be against our ToS as it falls under harrassment of other members.
Please, try and be supportive instead. After all, we are a support group.

It is the words! Words you saw and removed as surely as if you took them out of the mouth of the person speaking them. To say that it is not the words when you've gone so far as to censor them, is disingenuous and unbelivable.

You cannot make people say and think nice things even in Disneyland or the Vatican. You haven't lived until you've exclaimed, "Holy shit!," in the Sistine Chapel and marveled at how much your words echo when there aren't many people in there and if you've seen the Sistine Chapel since its restoration, then you know it's highly worthy of a very loud, "Holy shit!"

Same is true with people. In our interactions in society there will be saints and murderers, the good, the bad, and the ugly. If we are to support each other we also have to know when it's appropriate to tell other people they're wrong and let them know when they've hurt us by hurting them back. In the best of all possible worlds, this wouldn't be necessary. As this is not the best of all possible worlds, then, sadly, it is.

Honesty and openess is vital to the mission of LPSG. I have found the site remarkably supportive despite all the assholes who pop-up here and there. Like any other responsible adult, I deal with them and move on. LPSG would be worth nothing if any of us felt there were things we could not discuss.

Think back to some of the threads about incest or rape. There have been some frightening confessions on this site. Some of those confessions have been met with understanding, other times met with hatred and venom. I'd like to believe that the more understanding posts were the best ones, but I also know that is just my opinion, which will be judged by its own value as others find it just as the opinions of the insulters will be judged by their value. We are not fools, we are not children. Let us think and act and speak for ourselves just as you would not want to be censored in your thoughts, do not have us be censored in ours or you may quickly find few thoughts worth considering anywhere on this site.

This is my last response in this thread today as I feel I have explained my standpoint and don't think I can clarify more than I already have.

I hope this was a misspeak because I agree 100% with Manly. Right now you're on the defensive, explaining rather than discussing. We need to you to know you understand how important this is, why it is important, and the questionable wisdom of censoring anything that isn't illegal, or even enforcing it in a fair manner..

Hear, hear Jason! Well put.

Harrassment literally does not mean what jumbo mistakenly thinks it means, (see his statement highlighted in red above) but perhaps that is a result of English not being his mother tongue.

Harrassment is a systemic and continued series of attacks on someone or against a group.

 

[rawbone8]

Repeat after me.

We're good enough, smart enough, and gosh darnit we're adult enough to follow the ToS.

Don't edit other people's posts. It's misguided.

 

[Xcuze]

Repeat after me.

We're good enough, smart enough, and gosh darnit we're adult enough to follow the ToS.

Don't edit other people's posts. It's misguided.

We're good enough, smart enough, and gosh darnit we're adult enough to follow the ToS.

(with bells on..)

 

[kalipygian]

It would be appropriate to censor the sites name to Large Euphemism Support Group.
If the term for the female organ is not allowed, how can that for the male one be?

 

[FuzzyKen]

I did not see the "before and after" to make a determination on this issue.

I absolutely detest and that is the kindest word I can use the act of censorship.

Because of the nature of this kind of forum sadly, some "management" can at times become necessary to avoid legal action. I strongly doubt that what was done here would constitute that kind of issue, but, remember that on occasion the men who run this group are going to be forced to make decisions that will not always be popular. I have been a Moderator of Yahoo groups for many years. I have been on occasion forced to "edit" some postings simply because of potential litigation against Yahoo if I left what had been said.

I think that we can disagree with management's decision, but we must remember that there are some areas where forums such as this one unfortunately fall outside the protection of the United States Constitution's free speach guarantee by the nature of their structure.

It is a sad commentary, but, I must defer to management and I suspect that if the poster who was offended by the "edit" were to write to managment personally, that this member may get a personal response as long as it is kept on a personal level between the two individuals.

About severn years ago, I allowed things to go "uncensored" in a Yahoo group I managed thinking that the freedom of thinking was more important than the concept with which I also personally disagreed. What started was a flame war, the nature of which was so intense as to totally destroy the group. In fact, what was really strange was that the subject over which individuals had taken up sides and fought like a pack of wild dogs was believe it or not censorship itself.

After the flame war was over, the group never recovered. Because I did not take control early and use a fire extinguisher on the issue, many who had participated regularly simply vanished and over a time period of three months after that a group that had been alive, active and vital ceased to have any membership participation. After one year I finally felt obligated after several attempts to revive it, to simply close and delete that group because no members wanted to participate for fear of personal attack. Sorry, in groups such as this, we are stuck with this as a reality.

The next problem that a Moderator faces is the "how to" on the censorship mess. If the Moderator erases the entire thread a great deal of good can be lost with the problem posting or postings. If a thread is suspended you still have that problem.

This is NOT easy guys, you constantly walk a find line trying to protect a non profit thing to which you donate a great deal of free time, and occasionally find that your reward comes under the heading: "No good deed goes unpunished".

It is something we have to think about and realize that there are two sides to this issue.

 

[ZOS23xy]

I'm sorry, but I fail to understand why a adult site about the penis can't demand that it's members are respectful towards eachother in their posts

Why do so many of you feel the need to call others stuff ? It doesn't seem healthy to me.

Mem is asking if I'm striving for a kinder and gentler LPSG and the question in itself surprises me.
For me it's only natural that a support group is welcoming, supportive, friendly and gentle.
Disagreeing with somebody is fine and natural, but I fail to see how telling somebody he/she is a fucking idiot can be considered supportive.

It doesn't mean we have to love everybody, but we do need to be able to get along.

On one hand, I see the need to call someone for "their stuff" if it seems illogical, seems like a lie, seems to be BS.

I've called people on their BS, and have had a few words tossed at me. But I generally do not throw a few anglo saxon isms their way.

What has boiled over on a few occasions is that people don't get called or culled on their attitudes soon enough, as in the case of 1BiGG1...someone or some people lapsed on that one, big time.

,,,

 

[Mule]

Why have the moderators refrained from editing direct insults from this thread (You are an arrogant cretin, for example)? Shouldn't this be applied consistently if it's going to be applied at all?

Censorship is NOT going to help this site improve.

Oh, and fuck you sideways with a pickle, dumbass moron motherfucker.

Did I just harass everyone who read that last line?

 

[kalipygian]

Does anybody really believe that the locking of the 'Why was DCdeep Banned' thread was in any way justified by the the mostly good natured joshing that had been going on in the last few pages?

Overcontrolling and lack of good judgement again.

 

[mindseye]

in any way justified by the the mostly good natured joshing

I can't remember the last time that you haven't considered one of our decisions to be poor judgement, but in this case, you're begging the question. It wasn't the "mostly good natured joshing" that led to me closing the thread, it was the rest of the joshing.

 

[B_cigarbabe]

I can take the cleaning up of a few words over a Mod that sides with friends.For the most part the mods here have a thankless job that they dont get paid for.It may not be a perfect world.But lpsg sure beats that roach motel site down the road.:biggrin1:

At least at the roach motel you can call a roach a roach and stomp him out of existence if you wish to express your self that way.This is another heavy-handed example of inconsistency,and of them being able to interpret the ToS in any un/defined way they want to.
The moderators have a thankless job because they don't play fair.
Since when is it even possible to violate the "spirit" of a document.
Yes Army mule you insulted me and I'm telling a godamn person who makes my decisions on here so there! :nana::nana::nana:
It's alive, It's alive!
God fucking help us. Please.
cigarbabe:saevil: