Censorship or Sensibility?

[eurotop40]

Weren't many poor irish immigrants also considered a sort of slaves too?

 

[NumberTwentySix]

Weren't many poor irish immigrants also considered a sort of slaves too?

There was a system where many Irish, German, and Eastern European immigrants to the new world would agree to a period of indentured servitude/apprenticeship, usually from 3 to 7 years, in order to pay off the cost of their passage. Though the system was widely abused and the immigrants were taken advantage of, upon the end of their term the cost was repaid to the ship owners and the person was free.

There were instances of indentured persons' contracts being bought and sold in a manner similar to a slave auction, but it was different from the true chattel slavery that employed prisoners of war from African nations. A German might have his contract bought and sold, but it would be honored all the same. A Yoruba person's, life, labor, and future offspring were purchased with the purchaser holding lifetime ownership.

Also the indenture system ended with the Revolution, whereas chattel slavery continued until the Civil War

 

[midlifebear]

I predict that someday there will be a conservative christianist movement to remove the word the from all literature and books written in English because someone will discover by combining letters t, h, and e one can derive an antichrist prayer in satanic numerology! And I also predict it will be a Republican politician/religious leader from Texas who enacts such censorship. Set your watches.

 

[FRE]

Decades ago, my (now late) father told me that he couldn't understand why the "n" word was considered offensive; at one time, it was not considered offensive. I told him that there are many things that we accept without totally understanding and that the fact that many people, especially blacks, consider the "n" word offensive, was sufficient reason to avoid using it.

I lived in Fiji from 1994 to 2004. People there would use the "n" word, not knowing that it was offensive. I explained to them that black Americans found the "n" word to be highly offensive and that using it in the U.S. could even result in substantial changes to their physiognomy.

Most of us who are white probably will never fully understand the full impact of the "n" word on blacks; our history and experiences are different. Regardless of that, out of respect for people who do find the "n" word to be highly offensive, we should simply not use it; there is no need to use it. The main reason I find it offensive is that using it shows a complete lack of consideration for people who do find it offensive. Civilized people avoid unnecessarily offending others; it's a matter of respect.

Regarding the book in question, Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) did depict blacks as human at a time when many people did not consider them to be human. Even in the darkest days of oppression against blacks, there were always a few whites who saw it as wrong, and it appears that Mark Twain was one of them. When the context is considered, the "n" word in Mark Twain's writings should not be considered offensive.

 

[B_Marius567]

Censorship? I hope they Censor this site first.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Censorship? I hope they Censor this site first.

What does that have to do with this thread?

 

[MercyfulFate]

No censorship, period.

 

[Jason]

I have a friend who is a UK school teacher. In one of his classes are two black pupils who are friends and who habitually address one another as "nigger [first name]" and "nigger [first name]". The school has explained to them that this is wrong, but to no avail. My friend is in terror of one day making a slip of the tongue and himself using this form to address one of the pupils. This would be grounds for his instant dismissal.

Presumably the two pupils perceive the term as humorous. I see that the Oxford English Dictionary (which is authoritative in the UK) notes that the primary meaning of "nigger" is "colloquial and usually contemptuous". This note means that it is not always contemptuous, and it seems that such a non-contemptuous use is being applied in my friend's school. The OED also gives meanings which are (in the view of the OED) neither colloquial nor usually contemptuous - for example it sees "nigger-minstrels" (which is a term used in P G Wodehouse's novels, and in a context of approval) simply as a word in the English language.

I think with this word, as with any other, we have to take it in context.

 

[FRE]

I have a friend who is a UK school teacher. In one of his classes are two black pupils who are friends and who habitually address one another as "nigger [first name]" and "nigger [first name]". The school has explained to them that this is wrong, but to no avail. My friend is in terror of one day making a slip of the tongue and himself using this form to address one of the pupils. This would be grounds for his instant dismissal.

Presumably the two pupils perceive the term as humorous. I see that the Oxford English Dictionary (which is authoritative in the UK) notes that the primary meaning of "nigger" is "colloquial and usually contemptuous". This note means that it is not always contemptuous, and it seems that such a non-contemptuous use is being applied in my friend's school. The OED also gives meanings which are (in the view of the OED) neither colloquial nor usually contemptuous - for example it sees "nigger-minstrels" (which is a term used in P G Wodehouse's novels, and in a context of approval) simply as a word in the English language.

I think with this word, as with any other, we have to take it in context.

This is a matter of contention among many blacks. Some blacks see it as OK if they use the "n" word, but condemn non-blacks for using it. Other blacks see it as inconsistent for blacks to use the "n" word then condemn non-blacks for using it.

In my non-influential opinion, it would be better if everyone refrained from using the "n" word else some non-blacks will also use it and fail to understand why it is offensive to blacks.

 

[b.c.]

I am no more in support of censorship of such established forms of literature as I am for something like the removal of the Stars and Bars from flagpoles (so long as the AMERICAN flag flies higher).

I think the removal of such things obscures to some degree our history, and history teaches us lessons. Or at least it's supposed to.

Some things are best remembered.

 

[FRE]

I am no more in support of censorship of such established forms of literature as I am for something like the removal of the Stars and Bars from flagpoles (so long as the AMERICAN flag flies higher).

I think the removal of such things obscures to some degree our history, and history teaches us lessons. Or at least it's supposed to.

Some things are best remembered.

Could you comment on Jason's post #28 regarding blacks' use of the "n" word? I won't use it and have objected the few times I've heard other whites use it, but it seems to me that if no blacks used it either, it would be easier to get everyone to avoid using it.

 

[b.c.]

Could you comment on Jason's post #28 regarding blacks' use of the "n" word? I won't use it and have objected the few times I've heard other whites use it, but it seems to me that if no blacks used it either, it would be easier to get everyone to avoid using it.

Well I'll just offer my take as one person of color whose explanation may not necessarily be agreed upon by yet another.

It's a people-of-like-blood, kinship, clan kind of thing, sort of like "my nigga" (meaning my buddy, my friend, even my "brother" maybe) though given the setting timing and circumstance, it may be employed somewhat sarcastically or in derision.

Though some white youths (undoubtedly under the influence of urban social influences, current music, etc.) are starting to use the term to refer to each other, one would most definitely have to be an accepted member (even if "honorary") of the (implied/acknowledged) brotherhood to use it in a "trans-racial" setting, I would imagine. Maybe M&M can pull it off, y'know?

It's sort of like how people of Hispanic origin can refer to each other as "ese" but if someone of another race called them that it'd be "their ass"... you know?

I would personally prefer that we move on from the word, not because it is something that should be forgotten, but because it's off putting to others (less familiar with the accepted etiquette) if not rather passe'.

 

[MercyfulFate]

Well I'll just offer my take as one person of color whose explanation may not necessarily be agreed upon by yet another.

It's a people-of-like-blood, kinship, clan kind of thing, sort of like "my nigga" (meaning my buddy, my friend, even my "brother" maybe) though given the setting timing and circumstance, it may be employed somewhat sarcastically or in derision.

Though some white youths (undoubtedly under the influence of urban social influences, current music, etc.) are starting to use the term to refer to each other, one would most definitely have to be an accepted member (even if "honorary") of the (implied/acknowledged) brotherhood to use it in a "trans-racial" setting, I would imagine. Maybe M&M can pull it off, y'know?

It's sort of like how people of Hispanic origin can refer to each other as "ese" but if someone of another race called them that it'd be "their ass"... you know?

The term nigga is pretty much allowed if you're from the same upbringing. I've seen whites, blacks, asians, latinos all say it.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

The term nigga is pretty much allowed if you're from the same upbringing. I've seen whites, blacks, asians, latinos all say it.

It's not "allowed", it's accepted by certain individuals among their peers. Major difference. Whereas some of my friends know they can be more loose lipped around me (since I know they don't mean to be harmful contextually), outside of historical or societal artistic expression I do not appreciate the N-word being directed at me by total strangers or my adversaries.

 

[D_Rosalind Mussell]

Like others here, I am also against censorship of original works of art. It's sad that they've removed the original work from school libraries and will be removing the N-word. To me, the N-word provides a certain impact to the story that can't be replaced by any other word, even "slave", because it pushes a button that disturbs and provokes thought (which good literature should.) These censorship asshats are not only taking a figurative dump on a classic, they are denying teachers and students an educational opportunity. It would be an easy segue into a discussion about history, discrimination, acceptance, etc.

 

[FRE]

I'm convinced that it would be better if everyone refrained from using the "n" word, regardless of ethnicity. However, I would oppose expunging it from literary works which are considered classics.

 

[D_Rosalind Mussell]

Could you comment on Jason's post #28 regarding blacks' use of the "n" word? I won't use it and have objected the few times I've heard other whites use it, but it seems to me that if no blacks used it either, it would be easier to get everyone to avoid using it.

I don't use this word either, Fre. However, I don't think I have the right to tell African American people that they shouldn't use the N-word. The pejorative has been used against them specifically and I think they should be free to reclaim it and decide if or how the word is to be used for themselves. As much as I don't think this word should be used by anyone, it's not my debate.

 

[FRE]

I don't use this word either, Fre. However, I don't think I have the right to tell African American people that they shouldn't use the N-word. The pejorative has been used against them specifically and I think they should be free to reclaim it and decide if or how the word is to be used for themselves. As much as I don't think this word should be used by anyone, it's not my debate.

Obviously, in a country that has freedom of speech, it is the responsibility of individuals to decide what words to use. And, considering that we do have freedom of speech, I am within my rights in suggesting that it would be better if no one used the "n" word. Whether people follow that suggestion is up to them.

 

[MercyfulFate]

It's not "allowed", it's accepted by certain individuals among their peers. Major difference. Whereas some of my friends know they can be more loose lipped around me (since I know they don't mean to be harmful contextually), outside of historical or societal artistic expression I do not appreciate the N-word being directed at me by total strangers or my adversaries.

It's allowed/accepted by those who know each other and come from a similar socio-economic background, I know.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

It's allowed/accepted by those who know each other and come from a similar socio-economic background, I know.

I understand what you're trying to say, but to allow and to accept, although similar in certain contexts, are not exactly the same thing. That is why I stated there's a difference. To allow implies that you have the control to accept things at will, when in reality there are many things in this world we learn to accept even though many people would rather not allow them to happen... like the use of the N-word in a modern day society. You seem savvy enough to know the differences, but many others may not be that coherent.

Ultimately, we just have to really be wary of what we say and where we say it, even if our speech is protected by a First Amendment.