Changes in the gay community

[trav.]

As a gay man approaching the age of 40, I’ve been reflecting on the past couple of decades, especially regarding the so called “gay community”. I started meeting other gay men and bisexual men socially in 2004. America was very different then and the gay community was no exception.

Here’s what I remember:

- predominantly white, male, upper middle class, gay/bisexual (not “LGBTQ+” and certainly not “queer”)

- mostly single, not domesticated, indifferent about marriage and parenthood, very career oriented, politically left-wing but not radical, moderate and also somewhat conservative, not overly political

- normal weight (give or take a few pounds), fit but more lean and toned than muscular, usually no facial hair, minimal body hair, no pink, blue, purple, or green hair, very few if any tattoos

- dressed in “business casual” clothing; dress shirts and khakis for work, mostly polo shirts/t-shirts/dress shirts with boot cut blue jeans for social events, shopped at local malls, especially (Abercrombie & Fitch, Hollister, Banana Republic, Express Men), a lot of puka shell necklaces, designer cologne, teeth whitening and tanning beds

- rather affectionate and friendly, guys sitting on the laps of their boyfriends, so much dancing, wonderful music, a lot of smoking (especially outdoors after it was banned in bars) and drinking

- communicated on Gay.com (no Facebook, Twitter or Instagram), Yahoo Messenger, AOL Messenger, email, many preferences for “clean cut” and “straight acting”

Do you believe the gay community has changed in the past 15 to 20 years? If so, is it for the better or not? What are your thoughts?

 

[Cum_is_Great]

Do you believe the gay community has changed in the past 15 to 20 years? If so, is it for the better or not? What are your thoughts?

I'm curious in what your thoughts are? You listed all the differences but I don't know if you were preferring things back then or not.

How do you perceive the community nowadays?

Personally, I haven't really been in the community so I don't know how much it changed.

 

[trav.]

I'm curious in what your thoughts are? You listed all the differences but I don't know if you were preferring things back then or not.

A lot of it I do prefer though I never liked the cigarette smoke. Gay men seemed more approachable, friendly and sociable. The clothing was definitely better.

How do you perceive the community nowadays?

From what I’ve seen, there is not much of a gay community anymore. The word “gay” is now treated as if it’s obscene. It’s been removed and replaced with other terms by radical groups and the media against our will. What’s left of it seems angry, desexualized, emasculated and female-oriented.

Personally, I haven't really been in the community so I don't know how much it changed.

I’ve not been a part of it for a long time. A drag queen once reminded me of that years ago when I attempted to give him a gratuity in a gay bar and he told me that I didn’t belong there.

 

[dreambridger]

I don't like the recent politicization of homosexuality, I find it very alienating and disingenuously agenda'd. It also doesn't seem to work in favor of equality for all homosexuals/bisexuals to be placed on one side of the culture war, since diversity of outlook among gays and bi's seems crucial for the recognition of our respective individualities, and in turn coming off as normal and belonging among the masses. I think the political tribalism works very much against equality.

I do like the increased racial diversity, however, if it was less diverse in the past. I grew up in a city where mixed colors feel more like home to me, so I do prefer a more multicultural and multicolored gay scene.

 

[lkpt14094]

I go back to the mid-80s when things were REALLY different. There was still a lot of fear about being outed, and of course, AIDS had just exploded all over the news. It was a scary time. Gay bars were dark and dingy and loud, and it wasn't unusual for them to be raided by police for one reason or another. The bars were mostly meat markets, even in that era of AIDS. I hated the bar scene but luckily found a small group of gay and lesbian folks in my town and we gathered to watch movies and do brunch and just enjoy each others' company without doing the bar scene.

I was involved in some protests and ACT UP, wrote for an underground LGBT newsletter, and helped in a local support group. I somehow ended up having a one-on-one meeting with our local homophobic District Attorney after he said some hateful things and a protest was taking place at the courthouse. And as AIDS treatment was still primitive and AIDS patients were shunned, I watched some friends die.

It all seems like so very long ago.

 

[LPSG Simon]

@travisevian - I think that what you are talking about is what the representation of people was back then moreso than what was actually happening.

Back up your cohort about another 5-7 years for mine, but a lot of the references ring true for me. I used to Joke that Will and Grace was not gay TV, but it was Straight TV with gay people. Same with the American reboot of Queer as Folk (circa 2000) - it was a sensationalized version of gay culture for straight people. Same with the upwardly mobile double-income-no-kids, white bourgeois, non-militant left, safe for straights instances that you cited there. Sure, that was what was going on, but it was only part of it and also the only image of ourselves that we could either get out there, or the only one that the media was willing to portray.

If you think about it, all of the representations that existed in those zones affirmed the 'traditional values' of the time. None of them threatened capitalism. None of them we pro-labour. None of them reminded us that the cops hate us too. None of them validated multiculturalism or hardline politics that seek to create meaningful change. The message was that we all wanted to get married and 'be equal' instead of challenging marriage, which let's face it is a romantic thing to do, but whose function is really for people to bunch up and buy things. None of it challenged gender norms or toxic masculinity (I remember transphobia and low-key racism being the norm, and a ton of fem shaming and caricaturizing ). One could write a Phd thesis about it and Im sure some have, but I dont really think that the parts of gay culture that were represented here were gay culture at all - they were straight culture with a zone that they allowed us to occupy, just as long as we thought only of our own aims and didnt rock the boat.

Lots of us adopted these stereotypes either because the (straight) media told us this is who we were, or because we had others policing us from stepping out of line because if we were too unlike the heteronormative that we would be a threat to all the work that had come before us. Funny how a lot of the AIDS activists wanted nothing to do with marriage equity. If I let myself go over to more of a tinfoil hat side of things I would actually say they only let us get married because the establishment threw us a bone so we'd keep trying to aspire to their social institutions, and not get together with the other minorities and really start threatening the system.

TLDR: That window of gay community actually wasnt very gay, and the changes since then that led to now (more political in the everyday, more diverse, more on our own terms, more challenging to conventional ideas), are actually a better representation of all of the others who we share community with collectively.

 

[trav.]

@travisevian - I think that what you are talking about is what the representation of people was back then moreso than what was actually happening.

Simon, it was actually happening. I was there.

Back up your cohort about another 5-7 years for mine, but a lot of the references ring true for me. I used to Joke that Will and Grace was not gay TV, but it was Straight TV with gay people. Same with the American reboot of Queer as Folk (circa 2000) - it was a sensationalized version of gay culture for straight people.

Now we have drag queen shows. Isn’t that sensationalized? Not exactly an improvement in my opinion.

If you think about it, all of the representations that existed in those zones affirmed the 'traditional values' of the time. None of them threatened capitalism. None of them we pro-labour. None of them reminded us that the cops hate us too.

Cops hate us? Since when? By the way, there were and still are gay cops, too.

None of it challenged gender norms or toxic masculinity (I remember transphobia and low-key racism being the norm, and a ton of fem shaming and caricaturizing ).

“Toxic masculinity”? Isn’t that misandrist?

If I let myself go over to more of a tinfoil hat side of things I would actually say they only let us get married because gave threw us a bone so we wouldnt get together with the other minorities and really start threatening the system.

Isn’t that happening right now? I don’t find that a “tinfoil hat” point of view.

TLDR: That window of gay community actually wasnt very gay, and the changes since then that led to now (more political in the everyday, more diverse, more on our own terms, more challenging to conventional ideas), are actually a better representation of all of the others who we share community with collectively.

No, I respectfully disagree. The gay community I knew was attractive, exciting, fun and playful. It was definitely gay in all meanings of the word. They don’t even use “Gay Pride” anymore. It just has the name of a city like “Los Angeles Pride” or “New York City Pride”. Gay erasure.

These changes don’t reflect the gay community per se as much as other minority groups. A lot of the current politics in fact are more about gender, radical feminism, race (and even size) than sexual orientation. Have you seen the formerly gay magazines (Out, Gay Times, Attitude, etc.) lately? Nothing is exclusively gay anymore. Those are not my terms.

 

[Infernal]

Every group goes through evolutions and changes. In the early 90's we spent weekends going to funerals, or celebrating someone's life at a bar because their family wouldn't hold a service. The last time I went to a bar everyone was staring at their phone. I don't know if that's progress or not.

 

[Brodie888]

As sad as it may be, what it comes down to is this one question for most men:

What's the quickest way I can get laid?

 

[stormydude]

My experience was coming out about 15 years ago, so I wasn't really aware of anything before that other than what you would see on the surface in media. But in the most recent 15 years, I believe any changes that have taken place are positive ones. a community that seems (At least in my opinion) to be more inclusive, welcoming, and certainly more out/aware in the public. I mean, we watched the legalization of gay marriage and the evolution from states to federal levels. it's how I am able to be married today.

 

[tito21]

My experience was coming out about 15 years ago, so I wasn't really aware of anything before that other than what you would see on the surface in media. But in the most recent 15 years, I believe any changes that have taken place are positive ones. a community that seems (At least in my opinion) to be more inclusive, welcoming, and certainly more out/aware in the public. I mean, we watched the legalization of gay marriage and the evolution from states to federal levels. it's how I am able to be married today.

Well! My experience is totally opposite. Pre-grindr and phone hookup-apps days. An ugmo could still get laid come closing hours at a club/bar. There was always that one attractive guy that got shit-faced and couldn’t tell who, what or where he was and would bang the crap out of me. I look like a 9 or a 10 to those hot guys with beer goggle glasses in dimly lit club.

Now a day, you need to be a 9 or a 10 in broad daylight to be hook-up worthy to get laid on dating apps. A 6 to 8 is only for ‘dating’, not good enough for hook-ups. Ugmo like myself is pretty much banned on those apps.

 

[dfw051980]

My personal opinion. i think things are better nowadays but i do miss certain aspects.


Positives:
As a community we are safer. Not having to hide who we are is a blessing. An we are free to express who we are and theres power in that.
Sex is safer too. Though the same diseases and more are out there, medicine has advanced enough to keep people safe and/or healthy. No longer have the fear of death just from one night of fun. (though this monkeypox ish is seriously putting a damper on wanting to have a ho summer, lol)
And in general its easier to live a happy, healthy and successful life as a gay man.

Negatives:
I do think as the gay community has become so superficial. There so much importance placed on image nowadays its really toxic and I feel we need to address within ourselves. Like im not really exaggerating by saying if you are gay then you are required to workout and have a nice body. Whether its slimmed to toned or beefy. You wont get noticed if you dont fit one of those modes.
Now its one thing if this was applied solely to attracting a mate. Its like that with just having friends too.
Back in my day of growing up a young gay. You could walk into the most seedy sketch gay bar and didnt matter your race, age, build, masc/fem, image... you could make friends with anyone in that place, and these would be friends for LIFE. Nowadays its near impossible to make a gay friend at the club or bar (Social apps are what helped killed this). If you not apart of a clique your better off just staying home.

Sex apps I still cant decide if they positively or negatively effected gay culture.
On one hand if all you want is sex its way easier and quicker just log on, search your prefs and get it done that way. But its also made casual sex so generic and bland. And sometimes its not even quicker cause everyone is fishing for that perfect one; honestly just jerking off is more time efficient solution. Dont get me wrong ive had some amazing sex from hookup apps. but nothing beats that sexual energy of meeting someone in person first before the act goes down.
AND CRUISING! The younger generation is missing out on this cause its definitely not the same. Yes it was soo dangerous but results were always so hot!. Just the idea of locking eyes with a stranger in public, they give you that look or a signal and you are return the signal. Minutes later you are either in a bathroom stall, car or behind a bush fulfilling yalls carnal urges. So Hot!

Alas, i wouldnt go back to the way things were but things were more fun in alot of ways.

 

[trav.]

Every group goes through evolutions and changes. In the early 90's we spent weekends going to funerals, or celebrating someone's life at a bar because their family wouldn't hold a service.

That’s unbelievable. What kind of family could be so cruel?

The last time I went to a bar everyone was staring at their phone. I don't know if that's progress or not.

I don’t understand why people do that. They could just stay home.

 

[trav.]

I go back to the mid-80s when things were REALLY different. There was still a lot of fear about being outed, and of course, AIDS had just exploded all over the news. It was a scary time. Gay bars were dark and dingy and loud, and it wasn't unusual for them to be raided by police for one reason or another. The bars were mostly meat markets, even in that era of AIDS.

That’s crazy. I didn’t know gay bars were still being raided in the 1980’s.

I hated the bar scene but luckily found a small group of gay and lesbian folks in my town and we gathered to watch movies and do brunch and just enjoy each others' company without doing the bar scene.

I’ve always wanted to find people like that. A lot of gay culture seems to be centered around alcohol. Have you ever gone to a gay bar without drinking? It’s interesting to just observe. Someone once asked me half-jokingly if I was straight. He thought I was possibly some kind of undercover reporter. haha

I was involved in some protests and ACT UP, wrote for an underground LGBT newsletter, and helped in a local support group. I somehow ended up having a one-on-one meeting with our local homophobic District Attorney after he said some hateful things and a protest was taking place at the courthouse. And as AIDS treatment was still primitive and AIDS patients were shunned, I watched some friends die.

It all seems like so very long ago.

I’m sorry. You must feel very fortunate to have survived that part of your life.

 

[Infernal]

That’s unbelievable. What kind of family could be so cruel?

It’s unfortunate but there was a lot of shame and a negative stigma surrounding HIV then. The medications we have now didn’t exist and for a while people died in droves. That’s why they called it the plague. Families either lied and said someone died of cancer or some other unfortunate illness or they had no service at all. Some families cut off their gay family members and refused to claim the body when they died. So many people just gone so fast. We went to funerals and celebrated the lives of the ones who didn’t have them. It still makes me angry to think about it.

 

[LPSG Simon]

They don’t even use “Gay Pride” anymore. It just has the name of a city like “Los Angeles Pride” or “New York City Pride”. Gay erasure.

Yes, IMO this is because Pride was co-opted by corporate sponsors and took a protest of expression and in your face visibility to occupy public space and made it a party 'to celebrate inclusivity' then all of the straight people started complaining and wanted to make the space de-politicized, de-sexulized, and 'family friendly' (which is dog whistle for not gay, not kinky, not provocative, which kind of fucks up the whole point. I used to even see police recruitment booths. How does a protest / celebration that was borne out a response to police brutality start allowing something like that? Since when does someone show up to someone else's party and demand a change in the music? <- speaking figuratively there.

Cops hate us? Since when? By the way, there were and still are gay cops, too.

Indeed they do, and just because there are some gay cops does not change the institution. In my experience the gay cops are too intimidated by the thin blue line to try and change the culture of the institution from within anyway, so I would more call them class-traitors (severe term, ok) than allies or proof that things have changed there.

“Toxic masculinity”? Isn’t that misandrist?

Only if one thinks that toxic traits are something that define masculinity.....

Isn’t that happening right now? I don’t find that a “tinfoil hat” point of view.

Yes. And it's a good thing. Back when the police raided the Toronto bathhouses in the early 80's and arrested people, it was the Black Rights activists who had our back, and used the work they had done against a common threat (police brutality) to give us a leg up and shut down the bullshit. Then we forgot our allies and left them behind because we worried they were too much of a liability. Im glad that message is getting through.

No, I respectfully disagree. The gay community I knew was attractive, exciting, fun and playful. It was definitely gay in all meanings of the word.

By what standards?

I was a small town kid who moved to the big city at 19. I moved right into the gay village, and I was expecting a mecca of inclusivity. Instead what I saw was a lot of sexism, racism, and especially classism. I realized that the gay community was anything but a community. Sure there was a positive spin on things in the media, but IMO what was represented back then was so narrow that unless you were part of the chosen group that mainstream culture chose to celebrate, you were very much left out of the conversation.

I moved out of downtown and and found my tribe within the arts community instead. Much more inclusive open minded people there at the time.

 

[LPSG Simon]

It’s unfortunate but there was a lot of shame and a negative stigma surrounding HIV then. The medications we have now didn’t exist and for a while people died in droves. That’s why they called it the plague. Families either lied and said someone died of cancer or some other unfortunate illness or they had no service at all. Some families cut off their gay family members and refused to claim the body when they died. So many people just gone so fast. We went to funerals and celebrated the lives of the ones who didn’t have them. It still makes me angry to think about it.

I think you can still find video of people throwing their friends' ashes onto the lawn of the whitehouse in protest of the lack of response to the crisis.

 

[MisterB]

Interesting topic with some quite interesting perspectives. Which in my mind is important to remember that our perspectives derive from when we came out (how old we are, lol) and of course the experiences we had living our lives.

I came out in 1973 at 19. No gay role models. I remember thinking for a long time I had to be the only one who felt the way I did; I wanted to be with another man, both physically and emotionally. Imagine my excited surprise to discover my first gay bar! And that feeling of relief that I was not the only "different" one was so freeing. I was with my people!

We had NO social media. No cable TV. No mainstream gay magazines/newspapers. Living in the Washington D.C. area, we had the Gay Blade and a couple small weekly publications. We didn't have/know LGBTQ+. It was gay guys and lesbians. And several wonderful transgender folks who frequented the gay bars, because that's where they felt and were treated like they belonged.

Because it felt like we were a community. Seemed easy to make friends. House parties were normal.
We had our gay bars. Almost exclusively located in the not-so-nice neighborhoods. Small intimate dives to large discos. Leather bars. I was there the night one bar had it's very first ever drag show. It was all so amazing to my young self. And I felt pretty much accepted no matter where I went. One of my favorite places to party on a Friday night was a lesbian bar/club that featured some of the early drag shows. Nothing like standing at the bar next to a lesbian on one side and a guy all dressed up in leather on the other.

And very important to remember this was pre-HIV/Aids. We didn't know what that really was until the early 1980s. And not because our National politicians were talking about it, but because the Washington Post was reporting all the mysterious gay "cancer" deaths. While we didn't know it at the time, Hubby and I lost our first close friend to the disease in July 1981!

And once it got a name, our National politicians still didn't want to acknowledge the "gay plague". It wasn't until straight women started to get sick. How could that happen? Down low is nothing new today; it's just called Str8 today.

And despite HIV/Aids, we seemed to thrive as a community. We fundraised for the Whitman Walker Clinic. We networked and helped find Doctors who'd treat those infected. We sewed panels for the Aids quilt. We had Gay Pride parades/celebrations that were supported by local bars and clubs and donors. No corporate sponsors in those early days.

And most of us led regular, normal lives. Worked. Played. Loved. Laughed. Cried. Celebrated. Mourned. Many of us coupled up. Many of us permanently, and some not-so-permanent, lol. But I remember we were inclusive. Sure we had the leather bars and the lesbian bars and the dance bars, but anyone always seemed to be welcome. And made to feel welcome. You didn't have to be dressed in leather or drag to have a good time in those respective bars. Amazing some of the friends I made that I wouldn't have otherwise if I hadn't ventured into these clubs.

And yes, the gay community has changed since 1973. Markedly. Change is inevitable. Just like we all change as we age. We grow, develop, have ups and downs and in-betweens. Because that's just how life works.

IMO, it's how we choose and are able to adapt to said change that's important. We don't have to necessarily like it. But it's going to happen. So I've tried to grow and learn and accept that change. Good and bad.

While I won't be here to see it, it would be interesting to see what the LGBTQ+ community looks like in 30 to 50 years from now. Because it will change. Good or bad.

Because in all of life, change is inevitable.

 

[lkpt14094]

That’s crazy. I didn’t know gay bars were still being raided in the 1980’s.

I’ve always wanted to find people like that. A lot of gay culture seems to be centered around alcohol. Have you ever gone to a gay bar without drinking? It’s interesting to just observe. Someone once asked me half-jokingly if I was straight. He thought I was possibly some kind of undercover reporter. haha


I’m sorry. You must feel very fortunate to have survived that part of your life.

I was never much of a drinker. When I did go to the bars I'd have maybe one or two all night.

It is funny, though, about being asked if you were straight because you were not drinking. Early on I had someone (half-jokingly) ask me if I was sure I was gay because I wasn't a fan of Liza Minelli or any of the "typical" gay divas (from the old days!).

And as for feeling fortunate for surviving that part of my life... I miss those times, actually. I had lots of friends and was busy with work and social events. Now I'm home all day alone, taking care of my elderly mother and futzing around on the computer. The 80s were the best times of my life. You don't realize how quickly time slips by until you wake up one day and don't recognize the old man in the bathroom mirror...

 

[Infernal]

I think you can still find video of people throwing their friends' ashes onto the lawn of the whitehouse in protest of the lack of response to the crisis.

I remember it well. The administration completely failed in their response.